I keep hearing that sea lion takes 3 turns to complete, but i’ve done it in 2 turns. If the British navy is completely destroyed in the North Atlantic, then on Germany’s second turn, it can invade england with 4-10 ground units, along with 4 fighter, 3 tac Bombers, and a Strat bomber, PLUS naval bombardment. And during that time you can move soldiers into Russia to invade on turn 2!
So the total benfits:
-GETS RID OF AN ALLIED PLAYER (DURR)
-Receive Englands unspent IPCs (30 or so)
-Neutralize English factories in Canada and, more importantly, Africa
-Allow for a another naval stike into Russia the next turn
-Keeps US busy for several more turns
-Allow for naval stirkes as far as Canada and the USYou can do a G2 Sealion indeed, I’ve done it as well (with one art as surviving land unit :D) - but it takes a bit more luck with the first move removing the enemy navy and leaves a lot up to how England moves their first turn.
If England leaves themselves open for it, IMO it is very much worth the risk trying a G2 Sealion, especially because it doesn’t remove the G3 Sealion if G2 fails - but also because that means you could do a G3 (or potentially even G2) Barbarossa afterwards/instead.3 turns, or even 4, is however the easier one to actually plan for as it leaves less up to England’s move. But that’s why I usually do buy 2 transports in G1, just to have the off chance of an invasion G2.
My problem with invading England on turn 3 is that it gives the English 2 turns to buy 10 inf and stock them up in England. That means by G3 you’ll be fighting 20 inf and 3 fighters. And G2 purchases need to be used for Russia, most importantly, a Major IC in Romania, which alone is 30 IPCs.
At turn 3 you can present a similar force, and I’m not in the “major IC in Romaina” camp - I see that as a waste of money better used elsewhere.
As said - G2 is possible, but it is very much up to what England does and how G1 turns out - to make that possible. G3 is more “in your hands” so to speak.
@Young:
When I take London, I do so with the satisfaction that I will confiscate over $25 from my enemy and I hold London with the satisfaction that my enemy will never again place units on the board. You can understand that advantage alone. I get the whole 8 VC thing but our group games last 12 hours and most times we are no where close to the end game outlined in the rule book, therefore we accept and offer surrenders.
that is one point. a game doenst need to last 12 hours equaling 12 rounds. you can get it done in 7! ;) by the way, without sealion… pressuring the allies, speeding up the game with the axis. it has an interessting effect on allied buys. :)
@Young:
Yes Africa is huge and I have seen Italy take it all in three games and have heard stories of other games where the same thing happened. In one case Italy (with income & bonuses) was the richest power in the game, but I’m not saying its easy or won’t take a lot of turns. I’m just saying that its more than possible.
i have to admit, i can not imagine this! it is unlikely that this happens, not impossible, though, but a good allied player gets italy contained.
@Young:
As for Russia, I know I said 4 buffer zones but now that I think about it, I can easily take and hold Baltic States, Eastern Poland, Western Ukraine, and Bessarabia, and with my 10 transports (11 including my startup) I can take Leningrad in one well planned attack. As for the Ukraine IC, it will only be a matter of time especially if I strategic bomb it. I can do all this because of the boat load of money I am making each turn ($10 for Britain and Scottland + $5 NO for holding London).
for how many turns? you know that taking denmark an uk in the same turn, denies a retaking-manuever by germany? for two turns at maximum then…which means, 90 IPCs invested to gain 45 IPCs…
@Young:
By this time (2 am) the UK is out of the mix and the US can’t land because of a strong Italian military and if they do there is no support from the UK and their supply line is way to long. even if the Japs are pinned to their Island, the Axis are in a strong position to get a surrender even without Moscow.
about which round you are talking?
@Young:
Conversely, if I don’t attempt operation sea lion, I stand to lose a lot of money including my NO for holding london, Britain will continue to build and could easily take away my Denmark NO and collect their no submarines NO in due time. I would be so spread thin by trying to take Moscow that a back door invasion would be all to threatening.
actually you don´t loose in a manner. and britain taking “easily” anything, who said that? not me… ;)
and back door invasion? hmmm-…actually everbody awaits an invasion. it is a matter of time only
@Young:
With Sea lion being such a standard no brainer for Germany, I have a strategy to get it back at all cost when I play the allies or the UK, because I understand how devastating it is to my war effort if I don’t, and the players I play against also see the advantages of sea lion when they play germany.
no problem with that.
@Young:
you see sea lion is a whole lot more than just a cool maneuver, but I am interested to hear in detail how a Barbarossa operation instead of sea lion plays out. Do you still wipe out france and what happens to your west coast after you head east, how much money are you collecting from turn to turn, and more in line with the topic of this thread…… what are you buying?
pleas check out here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=22840.0 from reply #10 on…
it began as oob-variant, but can adapted to alpha 2+ without any problems, since germany has more troops availabe. italy as well. britain gets pressured, russia, too. russia in a fast game very soon, G2.
in this play, britain is too slow to stop a german advance into russia, a “backdoor”-invasion is welcome, as this helps italy getting valuable places in n.africa and the middle east
please read it first, than lets discuss more on.
but i have some questions: how many games did you play? how many with sealion? how many you won with that?
greetings
rock`n roll
It’s as much a “viable strategy” as saying Barbarossa, but it isn’t as such a “play-by-play” strategy, but more opening up different possibilities and then capitalizing on the opportunities as they arise.
what do you mean by play-by-play? i do not understand it clearly…
You’re also much more able to pressure the Allies into making tactical mistakes if you do not go one route only. If you only open up for Barbarossa, England is “safe” and will build accordingly - if you make a move which indicates both, you force the Allies to plan accordingly and open up for the tactical blunders.
i understand this point, but it is too costly in this game to poker, i think. time is the answer, IF having two more rounds being able to “blunder” - yeah - come on sealion! . but as it is, it is not the case…so i prefer the safer way…going directly with fast units, just crushing in. check put here, post #10: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=22840.0
So I generally do the pretty standard opening with Germany aka kill off as much navy as possible and all that, and I do buy 2 transports. Then if England opens herself up I can move for a quick Sealion in G2 or G3 or use the transports to hit Russia or …. and so on.
And if you get London - Italy will have a much easier time in Africa (until the US potentially comes along) and you can then use Italy to push Syria -> South USSR or even push Persia -> India.
Heck - my last game, I had Italy landing troops in central America, just to goat the US into the European theater as they were pounding hard on Japan and Japan was about to crumble. It worked.
well too many “IFs” in here. as UK you have always to prepare against a german landing. so there is no G2-landing-option. if G3, then italy is mostly in vain trying to get out of 10+x ipc-area. but then the us can get in the game. and well, if you “push” against persia, then africa is free from italian soldiers. you cannot have both, except the british player does not see, what is coming.
So as said - it’s more about not closing yourself off too fast. If showing your hand in turn 1, you can effectively plan the entire game, baring dice luck.
this is no poker-game here…! 8-) :-D
Sealion works as well as Barbaross and I have seen nothing to indicate that it is a “dead end”. In fact, it looks to open up the game so much more.
i do not agree, as you know already. never seen sealion work AND the axis winning afterwards. that sealion works, no doubt, but only with the price of loosing the european board.
so…same questions to you:
how many games did you play? how many with sealion? how many did you win?
No matter what happens, Germany should always prepare for a Sealion at the beginning of its turn. I buy 3 TTs, one Sub, and an inf. At then end of my first turn I will have a massive force on the Eastern front, and be ready to invade East poland, the Baltics, and Bessarbia. To prevent a G2 sealion England can only do one thing - build 10 inf (making Africa vulnerable). They also most likely abandon Taranto to cope with Sealion. In the event this happens, Italy will have a much easier time in the Africa and the Med, and can begin to support ther Germans in Russia sooner. ALSO, if Germany knows that sealion is no longer possible in G2, it can immediatly invade Lenningrad, and most likely take it.
So total benefits of a planned G2 Sealion
-Forces England to spend IPCs on England, not Africa
-Reduces the chances of a taranto happening
-Allows for the Germans to invade Lenningrad on G2, for a one-two punch into Russia
-Allows the Italians to roam free in the Med, Middle East, and Africa
-Still allows for a possible Sealion later on in the game.
@rock`n:
<snip>i do not agree, as you know already. never seen sealion work AND the axis winning afterwards. that sealion works, no doubt, but only with the price of loosing the european board.</snip>
That you’ve not seen it happen is not the same as it a) can’t happen and b) can’t win the game.
The only time I’ve won OOB as Axis was with Sealion. In that game, removing England caused Italy to become very powerful, very fast - even to the point where it was throwing tanks into Calcuatta, had taken South Russia, the entire Africa and was playing catch with the USA.
Sure, the game might have looked different if I got diced on Sealion, but well …. you can plan with the dice, but you can’t control them.
I’m sure you can win the game without, but well - that’s not really the issue and frankly, I do not care that people win doing only Barbarossa. The issue is that you claim it is a “dead end” and will cause you to loose the game. Well, others disagree, not just me, and use the tactic to great advantage.
And no, the game isn’t poker, but that does not change the fact that if you’re a one trick pony, and always visible go for Russia, it’s much much easier to counter, than if the enemy doesn’t know which direction you go and must plan accordingly. And heck - I’d find it a very dull game if it was always a rush for Russia. Doubt I’d even play it much then.
So I’m glad Sealion is a viable alternative for me.
Sealion can work so can Barbarossa even in the same game I’ve seen it more than once. It can also fail It all depends on the dice and strategy.
In one of the first games Russia bought into their Navy and Germany wasn’t paying attention. That was a reset and I didn’t count it into the score of win/loss each week. It’s still about 50/50
Wasn’t this about T1 Axis purchases? :-D
Germany - Carrier and 2 Transports
Japan - Minor IC and 2 Transports (although the Naval Base in Hainan is intriguing…)
Italy - Infantry and Transport
See a theme? The Axis has to create versatility and project power/tip the economic battle.
IMO the transports for Germany are to threaten Sea Lion, not to complete it. On G2, 6 land units per turn can shuck to Norway. Combined with the Finnish Infantry, Germany pretty quickly creates an overwhelming Northern front. Leningrad will fall. All mechanized forces can end up in the Baltic States on G4, with a ton of Inf/Art, and 6 more land units can be brought with the Kriegsmarine on G4 & G5 to put it over the top. Or, if Russia sends everything needed to save Leningrad, then Germany simply pivots all mech forces and the Ukraine falls. Yup. Russia, pick your poison. All set up with 2 Transports and a Carrier! Good times in the Fatherland.
G2 & G3 you’ll find a balanced purchase of inf/armor/a naval unit/an air unit will provide punch for Barbarossa.
Secondly, this G1 purchase forces Britain to honor the threat of Sea Lion, which slows them down in Africa. This is a good side benefit for Italy.
Germany - Carrier and 2 Transports
I am sorry for being ignorant, but for weeks I have been trying to figure out why the Germans buy an aircraft carrier on turn 1, and not two destroyers. All planes can hit England anyway if they are in Holland or West Germany, and two destroyers allow for better protection against subs and get two hits instead of one with an aircraft carrier. If you can’t land planes on it that turn, what’s the point of having an aircraft carrier?
Could someone PLEASE enlighten me on this one.
Germany - Carrier and 2 Transports
I am sorry for being ignorant, but for weeks I have been trying to figure out why the Germans buy an aircraft carrier on turn 1, and not two destroyers. All planes can hit England anyway if they are in Holland or West Germany, and two destroyers allow for better protection against subs and get two hits instead of one with an aircraft carrier. If you can’t land planes on it that turn, what’s the point of having an aircraft carrier?
Could someone PLEASE enlighten me on this one.
The carrier is so you can land planes in the sea zone around England if you clear it of the navy and thus defend your position on Englands turn easier. If I remember right (at work) it can help bring the Norway fighter into play for a Lion as well.
It’ll also help you if you’re successful with Sealion to push out into the Atlantic or to remove the Russian battleship. As far as I remember, England or USA don’t have subs so destroyers anti-sub is marginal, unless you want to hunt the Russia sub to begin with.
However I’m sure you can do other things than a Carrier and still be successful.
to xandax and any other one interested in discussing the viability of sealion etc.:
i don´t want to fill this thread with more “off-topic”, therefor i created another one, come on over here.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=23612.new#new
greetings
rock`n roll
Germany - Carrier and 2 Transports
I am sorry for being ignorant, but for weeks I have been trying to figure out why the Germans buy an aircraft carrier on turn 1, and not two destroyers. All planes can hit England anyway if they are in Holland or West Germany, and two destroyers allow for better protection against subs and get two hits instead of one with an aircraft carrier. If you can’t land planes on it that turn, what’s the point of having an aircraft carrier?
Yes you can land on a newly purchased carrier.
@special:
Yes you can land on a newly purchased carrier.
Really? But the purchase units phase comes after noncombat. Is that an alpha 2 rule
@special:
Yes you can land on a newly purchased carrier.
Really? But the purchase units phase comes after noncombat. Is that an alpha 2 rule
No - also an OOB rule.
It is clarified in the rulebook under Carriers where it states that: “Landing doesn’t actually occur until the Mobilize New Units phase”
Killofreeze - a carrier gives you four casualties at sea (assuming it is loaded) vs two hits with destroyers for the same price. IMO, you can start buying lesser naval pieces thereafter. The German fleet is primarily defensive for me, not offensive, so I’m looking for maximum deterrence. A carrier does that quite well.
Secondly, a carrier is a much more versatile piece if you choose to head to SZ91 and take Gibraltar/Morocco. It makes you feel safe when you combine it with your starting navy, and allows you to project your airpower.
All for the price of two destroyers!
Sorry, that’s Killofzee… my mistake -
Yeah too many rules too many games we keep catching ourselves saying " is that this game? oh no It’s the other one"
