We’ll see. I’m just super afraid it’ll increase American morale if I attacked first. Worth a shot though as morale never undermined most campaigns on either side.
Need help forming strategy: Operation Penta-"gone". When US builds KIF?
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BTW, I generally don’t declare war on Japan turn 1. I wait until turn 2 at least.
What would it take for you to declare war turn 1? naked Transports, carriers, BBs? all asia land units exposed?
Is it possible to get you to declare war turn 1 with India or Anzac, and would you honestly fear that this would cost you E. US prior to this thread?
I would not suspect it would cost EUS. However, I don’t think you can do anything to make me declare war turn 1 because I don’t want Japan to attack UK before turn 3 without bringing the US into war. Also, I think there is a limit on the bait you can set, since the UK in alpha setup has 1 inf, a DD, a CC, a BB, 2 ftr, and a tac with which to attack anything. I don’t want to trade my navy for the Japanese CV or BB
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BTW, I generally don’t declare war on Japan turn 1. I wait until turn 2 at least.
What would it take for you to declare war turn 1? naked Transports, carriers, BBs? all asia land units exposed?
Is it possible to get you to declare war turn 1 with India or Anzac, and would you honestly fear that this would cost you E. US prior to this thread?
I would not suspect it would cost EUS. However, I don’t think you can do anything to make me declare war turn 1 because I don’t want Japan to attack UK before turn 3 without bringing the US into war. Also, I think there is a limit on the bait you can set, since the UK in alpha setup has 1 inf, a DD, a CC, a BB, 2 ftr, and a tac with which to attack anything. I don’t want to trade my navy for the Japanese CV or BB
Same for me. No bait will measure up to the money islands + instant American support when India doesn’t attack anything.
As for Canadian threats, as USA i will react to anything remotely insight of my home country by buying alot of troops. (tehy’re not lost since sooner or later (probably later) they will be used to attack Europe with.
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By the way, doesn’t Japan taking Britisch Columbia bring USA in the war in turn2?
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@special:
By the way, doesn’t Japan taking Britisch Columbia bring USA in the war in turn2?
Not if India declared war against Japan, I believe.
I had 12 more hours to think about this in detail.
There are 2 “work arounds” to India not declaring war turn 1. The first one has a better chance of success in my opinion. They are:
Option 2: Some have posted that a turn 2 India DOW against Japan is common. Rather then “bait” them into attacking turn 1, just focus on building transports, take Soviet Far East J1. Fly air force there J2 when you place an air base. Then land air force in German occupied “Alberta” on J3. Then clear Washington for Italy with air force on J4.
I believe a DOW by India turn 2 is required. Otherwise Japan would be flying over Neutral British Columbia which I believe is against the rules. J3 support the axis efforts by landing 7-8 loaded transports from the “russian” front to British Columbia turn 3, so that if they defend Washington, you take San Francisco.
How does Germany get to Alberta? G2: Iceland and Scotland. G3: sz 123->122->121 touches Greenland, Alberta, and Quebec. Take Alberta and Quebec with 2 transports.
After turn 3: Axis should have Quebec: 2German,4 Italian land;2 Italian air. British Columbia 16 Japanese land. Alberta: German armor, inf, 28 Japanese air.Ontario: 1 German infantry.
Turn 4: Japan attack either W coast or east coast by air and land[west coast]. 16 German land units, land in Quebec plus they build 3. Japan lands a second wave of infantry in British Columbia. If Washington is empty, Italy sends 1 infantry in to claim it. Otherwise Germans probably take C. US from Quebec -> Ontairo -> C. US using armor. Land surviving Japanese air in Quebec if needed. You also have the option of hitting the US fleet if in range of Japan and either of the above are not safe. Note: if Washington is secure on J4, capture W. US and land 28 air on Quebec, other axis stack there should give you 3 air forces, 27 land, 36-38 air. Should be safe from E. US forces of predicted: 25-30land, 12 air.Option 3: Assumes no DOW by allies. No air base Soviet Far east, as that combined with German Alberta “tips off” the US. Instead, conduct more “normal” operations. Wait for German to take British Columbia on turn 4. Then fly Japanese air force and make 12 transport landing on German held British Columbia. Axis forces move from Quebec to Ontario. Capture C. US if possible with German armor and air strike to clear and Italian armor and air to capture. Instead of stacking on B.Columbia, you can stage forces for a “Raid” on W. US should be possible maybe with 9 Japanese Transports, 6 carrier planes, and 4 bombers flying from Japan to land in B.Columbia if staged while Neutral to US. Note: W. US sea can be cleared by Japanese navy and 6 planes to land on carriers as carrier planes hitting W. US land in B. Columbia. A turn 5 battle with the US seems like it will take rounds to win. Best case, you have US bottled to E. US and collecting 82 - 30 [N/O] - 12 [W.US/Alaska-German] say 40 - 12 [C. US if axis take in force and Jap air lands there to hold] = 28 IPCs. Not sure if US falls, but fights elsewhere will be drawing on axis resources.
Conclusion Option 2: is likely possible since others claim India turn2 DoW is likely and you see the US falling for good by round 5 if E.US is taken Round 4. Otherwise US will be contained in Option2:
Option 3 is less Idea and too hard to Predict without a play test.
Option 3 is just stated as the allies can do nothing to prevent the moves, however if US does a UK and builds all land the first 3 turns, US first is not an option. I believe they can produce 52 infantry in 3 turns, add this to I think 10 starting land units and is not an option.
Option 2 or 1 give you the best chance of knocking out the US if you “surprise” them, meaning they build navy and land for a German first approach. Both require India to declare war either turn 1 or 2.
Anyway, these are “concepts” right now, and have not been tested. Too many options to consider in my head without a board to verify.
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Where do the Italians come from, I ask?
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Where do the Italians come from, I ask?
2 transports, 1 made turn 1, 1 survives uk1. air fly to iceland I2,then Canada.
I1: Gibraltar attack with surviving navy. France vs Italian navy = Italian lives with 1 tran. Ideally Uk is in 95, Italy hit 93 with air and DD and/or CA. G2 clears UK in 95 or 93.
I2: sz91 - may require Germans here, then i would redo fleet build[2 less trn for a cv]
I3: Quebec
turn 2, unlikely u see america first, unlikely UK flys air to hit 91 as air then leaves uk vulnerable to sea lion and has to land in S.america/n.africa. Most people will not trade London for this fleet, however this is the fleet that captures E.US and if you are aware of the plan, you might pull the trigger. Nobody unaware of this plan will see the threat of 1 or 2 Italian transports, as UK gets to produce before the Italians can hit them and the US feels safe behind a large Europe based navy from an Italian transport(s)
fleetand maybe a CA.I4: E.Us
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[[i]I know, I know, an experienced player would never fall for it, or so I will be told this often]
Yeah, I think I stressed this point in your “dusting Off OH” thread, as well as your old revised thread. I now apologise. If nothing else, exploring a sucker mate strategy might turn out to yield a more solid strategy than you first thought, or be a real nuisance for your opponent to properly protect themselves against.
Eventually I’d like to join your Penta-gone think tank, but right now I’m working on another plan (which also involves pressuring or even invading North America). Currently I barely have time for either.
Have you had trouble with the Italians? I don’t think I could keep transports alive long enough to leave the Med.
Also, would you trade Germany for the US in a Global game? [if it came down to it]
If Germany occupied England and Japan was the one to capture Washington, I’d give it try!
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The best way to keep the Italian transport(s) alive is:
I1: build 1 transport in enemy occupied sz 95. Attack 93 with 2 fighters and a DD, send Ca to 98 to block DD if in 81. Otherwise sz 97 transport and CA to 92 to capture Gibraltar. This assumes: the pressure on London keeps the UK airforce and land units that can get there in London, meaning the UK attack on 95 requires a CA, CV, DD, and alexandra FTR. That prevents the CV from moving to 93, otherwise you may survive with the BB and Transport. Worst case scenario move whole 97 fleet to 92 French attack should be mutual annihilation with the transport living. Germany clears the UK fleet in 95 on there next turn.
I2: move to 91 to join the German fleet.
I play tested 10 rounds of this US first approach. I had US respond with medium infantry builds on US2. in order to protect the west coast when I saw the airbase and airforce stack in soviet far east. I had UK India attack Yunnan on turn 2. This permitted the Japanese air force to fly over Brittish Columbia and land on German occupied Alberta.
In this playtest America had several choices: I choose to back away from W. coast, stack in Central, land fleet airforce in E. US and built all land. In this response, the 1 US infantry in the west coast fell to Germany G4, when it attacked with a Gibraltar bomber and Alberta armor. [bomber path:91,90,89,101,c.us,w.us,b.columbia]. Japan then hit the US fleet, 3 carriers, BB, 2 CA [uk and us], 3 DD, 6 trans. Japan cleared it in one combat round losing 3-4 bombers. I had america fall for this, as it was safe from the air force in Alberta since they were 3 spaces away. Also the German navy was no threat to this large of a surface fleet. However the German air base build turn 4, gave the Japanese the 5 movement need to clear it. This later lead to sub blockades that kept america out. However the constant German infantry builds in W.US kept Russia parked in Slovakia with a Major factory all game . The break point was the allies out producing Japan in the pacific. UK eventually got a fleet in London and I had all of africa with the german transport fleet that never went to Quebec but instead took africa, since the jap air force was protecting W. US instead of Quebec.
I saw the US had the potential to make several mistakes on US4 with this ploy.
They could have tried to hold W. US. from the 18 units landed in B.Columbia J3 and the J. air force in Alberta. If they had staged the US air force in W. US to hold it, I would have cleared E. US with the Jap air and taken with Italy. Germany would have forgone Africa and landed in Quebec for a follow up wave. and that would have given them the men to push Russia back. This would have left the US fleet in tack.
Regardless there are many options. If the US did not respond on turn 2, but waited til turn 3. [I.e. they did not see the US first approach until the Germans took Alberta G3. The Jap air force in Soviet far east, can only hit the US west coast sea zone and is no direct threat to US land. It may appear to be needed against the Russia stack and threat to prevent a W.coast navy build.] then the US would be doomed.
Too many options to look at, I need to deploy the Jap fleet south early to keep the UK India from using a navy option. I am on vacation this coming week and will play a Global vs. a good friend. If he permits me to play the axis I will deploy the Prototype plan.
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I think this would be a very entertaining one shot deal in a face to face game. Granted it would only work once, but I can definately see it working. One of my gaming groups consist of 5 other compitant players, but they all tend to think inside the box and scoff at many of my “I wonder if this would work” strategies when we used to play revised. So this would 100 percent work on them once and the victory dance would be epic
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G1 - build pure Navy (1 ac, 1 dd, 1 sub), clean out as many UK ships as possible + take out France. Keep a significant amount of troops in Germany and WG.
J1 - attack Hawaii, bring every single ship that reaches. Take Hawaii (sacrificing planes if need be).
I1 - whatever else is done, TAKE GIBRALTAR.
G2 - build AT LEAST 8 transports, keep hammering the British Navy. Get a carrier down to Gibraltar.
J2 - scoot the entire Hawaii force over to sz64 and take Central America. Leave a destroyer screen behind to prevent his Pacific fleet from chasing you. Use your IPCs to bolster defense of Japan.
G3 - pull an end around, and ship your entire Navy + transports into Gibraltar. Use the carrier and whatever Navy you placed there earlier to can-open sz89 for the Japanese.
J3 - Attack the U.S. Atlantic fleet parked in sz101.
G4 - Attack sz101 with whatever Navy and planes you can (using the carriers off the coast of Normandy to catch them), and take Washington with 10 transports.
Not completely thought out, and certainly can be countered if expected. The key is the US starts with only a dd + trans. in the Atlantic and gets only 52 + 82 IPCs to try and bolster that. Of course, that’s plenty to fortify Washington against even 10 trans., but would require some forethought on the part of the US player.
Never tried it, don’t know if it could work, but if there is a viable Kill US First strategy out there i think it would have to go something like that.
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With alpha setup, J1 Hawaii attack is impossible
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Also, on J1 no planes can reach Hawaii. The battle rests on 2 BB, 1 CA bombardments + 3 inf, 1 art and 1 tank. The odds of winning are 77.6%. If you win, you will have only a few land units and the US can hold Central America quite easily because once again, no planes can reach the battle. I think Japan should hold off until turn 2 if taking Hawaii, then Central America is the plan. Or you could do it anyways and see if you get lucky with good dice and a US player who can’t see your strat.
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Also, on J1 no planes can reach Hawaii. The battle rests on 2 BB, 1 CA bombardments + 3 inf, 1 art and 1 tank. The odds of winning are 77.6%. If you win, you will have only a few land units and the US can hold Central America quite easily because once again, no planes can reach the battle. I think Japan should hold off until turn 2 if taking Hawaii, then Central America is the plan. Or you could do it anyways and see if you get lucky with good dice and a US player who can’t see your strat.
And in alpha, Z26 has a DD that prevents bombardment and only has 1 transport in range of Hawaii
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I’m not sure about others, but the plan I am working on is not for Alpha. As far as I know Alpha is not official, therefor I will not be using it until it becomes official.
I have not even looked at the changes for it yet. The only changes I am using are the Pacific errata with the complex changes in Australia and the bases added to Philippines although I think the game would be better purely out of box as those bases help Japan too much.
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G1 - build pure Navy (1 ac, 1 dd, 1 sub), clean out as many UK ships as possible + take out France. Keep a significant amount of troops in Germany and WG.
J1 - attack Hawaii, bring every single ship that reaches. Take Hawaii (sacrificing planes if need be).
I1 - whatever else is done, TAKE GIBRALTAR.
G2 - build AT LEAST 8 transports, keep hammering the British Navy. Get a carrier down to Gibraltar.
J2 - scoot the entire Hawaii force over to sz64 and take Central America. Leave a destroyer screen behind to prevent his Pacific fleet from chasing you. Use your IPCs to bolster defense of Japan.
G3 - pull an end around, and ship your entire Navy + transports into Gibraltar. Use the carrier and whatever Navy you placed there earlier to can-open sz89 for the Japanese.
J3 - Attack the U.S. Atlantic fleet parked in sz101.
G4 - Attack sz101 with whatever Navy and planes you can (using the carriers off the coast of Normandy to catch them), and take Washington with 10 transports.
Not completely thought out, and certainly can be countered if expected. The key is the US starts with only a dd + trans. in the Atlantic and gets only 52 + 82 IPCs to try and bolster that. Of course, that’s plenty to fortify Washington against even 10 trans., but would require some forethought on the part of the US player.
Never tried it, don’t know if it could work, but if there is a viable Kill US First strategy out there i think it would have to go something like that.
Looks good, only concern would be if the US flees from Japan by moving to sz89 (west indies sea zone/gulf of Mexico). That fleet may be secure and also may provide enough transports to retake central America.
I have thought about going that route, after I base the Jap air force in Canada, giving you the whole air force and fleet to strike either coast. I really favor an approach that denies the US their N/O or at least keeps them at 82 for only 1 round. Technically it is possible to stage the Jap air force and fleet by round 3, use a German transport G4 to “open” the panama canal from Gibraltar on turn 4, and then permit the Japanese to strike 101, sink the navy and strike either C. US or E. US, or W. US with the transports and remaining air cover.
The Gibraltar route has proven the most vulnerable in my play tests as the UK can hit 91 with a CA and 3 FTR and 1 Tac landing in either: British Guiana, Suriname, French Guiana, Algeria, and Morocco (assumes you have Gibraltar). I haven’t found enough transports able to take all those spots by turn 2. The only “safe” thing is to keep the “threat” of sea lion “real”, so they won’t pull the air cover out of London.
There is still a lot of work to do, to make this work reliably enough to force an early counter. It would be nice to force UK and US to build all infantry turn 1. You could then spring onto Australia and S. Africa with the axis forces committed to this plan as a back up plan.
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@ JamesAleman
I know you’re not using alpha, but I did raise some objections to this plan OOB that you should take note of if you’re planning on incorporating it into your overall schemes. See above.
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They need to fix it that if Canada falls the USA is brought into the war. Depending on the USA build up in the EUSA they might try and retake Canada…but I think the USA could hold out a turn with the forces you listed in Canada and then they could build a massive army. What about an attack on both coasts? Can it be pulled off?
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@special:
By the way, doesn’t Japan taking Britisch Columbia bring USA in the war in turn2?
It’s in the Pacific Rules.
If Japan takes control of an “american territory” (not only US) the US are imediately at war with Japan.
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@special:
By the way, doesn’t Japan taking Britisch Columbia bring USA in the war in turn2?
It’s in the Pacific Rules.
If Japan takes control of an “american territory” (not only US) the US are imediately at war with Japan.
I assume you refer to page 8 AAP40 bottom section, first paragraph under “The Political Solution” last sentence: “However, any combat movements against the British, Dutch, ANZAC, or American territories, troops, or ships by the Japanese will bring all the Allied powers into the war.” Note: page 6 of the above manual top of page first sentence also states the same.
I refer you to the third paragraph(page 8 as above), first sentence beginning with “If Britain or ANZAC attack Japanese…” and ending with “…powers, but not bring the U.S. into the war.”
British Columbia is a UK-pacific territory, not an American territory. I suspect you confuse the continent of America with American territories. For game purposes an American territory is a territory with a USA control marker printed on it, on the map. To avoid such confusions, the game designers wisely printed nation specific control markers on all territories that start the game under control of the major powers in the game.
British Columbia has a Canadian control marker, and thus is controlled by UK-India. See page 8 AAE40 manual top of page end of first sentence parenthesis section: “… at the start of the game (the United Kingdom controls the Canadian territories).” See also page 34 same manual, UK first National Objective, second sentence: "This includes the territories of Canada."Also, I refer you to “Global United Kingdom Rules” section on page 32 AAE40 manual that refer to IPC generation (and thus control) on each board (pacific and Europe maps) and on the same page, four paragraphs lower clearly defines British Columbia is connected to Alberta. It is interesting to note that I had to list the above references from the Europe manual as I searched the Pacific manual and did not fine a reference to Canada being controlled by UK, however, a comparison of the starting IPCs and the Map IPCs infer that British Columbia was controlled by UK india in AAPacific.
Therefor, once at war, Japan, Italy, and Germany are all free to occupy Canada while keeping the US neutral during the first three turns of the game, assuming Japan holds back and does not provoke the US into war by attacking first and UK-India or ANZAC declared war on Japan first.
Incidentally, a reread of the sentence with the phrase “American territories” indicated that the word territories refers to the 4 nations listed before that word. That paragraph spells out what attacks Japan can make that will result in all out war. It continues to list troops and ships attacks as also bringing the Pacific into all out war. This paragraph does not apply when UK or ANZAC declare war first, thus you should use the 3rd paragraph to determine that the US will remain neutral until the US Collect Income phase on turn 3, assuming Japan does not declare war on the US prior to that turn.
Also, it is important to refer to page 31 AAE40 manual top of page second sentence: “These rules replace their counterpart rules in Europe 1940 and Pacific 1940.” and thus you should use the political situation rule on page 35 of the same manual under the United States section. The last two sentences of that paragraph define when the United states can declare war on the axis powers. It clearly calls for an “unprovoked” declaration of war by Japan on UK or ANZAC before it can declare war “early”. Clearly, if UK or ANZAC declare war first, there is no “unprovoked” declaration by Japan.
I hope this helps to clarify my position. Note it is possible for Germany to seize British Columbia on turn 4 to permit the Japanese to move there during non combat, however it would not matter as the US can declare war by then anyway.
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The nice thing about seizing Alberta turn G3 (in a US/USSR 3 turn neutral plan), it permits the Japanese air force to get to the Atlantic faster than any other route.
I thus plan on keeping this as part of any London first Axis plan, as Japan can land on Iceland turn4 (pending a German air base on Alberta) and thus land in London on turn 5 to secure it from the US. Remember, from Alberta, the US must be careful where it places its surface fleet as the Japanese air force can hit it on round 4(and will typically surprise the US as the Germans build the air base on the turn after the US responds to the Jap air landing and thus might catch them by “surprise” with the extra movement).
Also note, that having one Italian transport in sz 91 permits a turn 4 capture of New Brunswick (naval base) and thus preventing any US fleet staged there from reaching London on US4. Delaying the take back of London by one turn, and permitting the Japanese air force to land there in time. Also note, Iceland is safe from a US landing as Japan can “scramble” and simply destroy the surface fleet that attacks Iceland. Once you “burn” the US once with Italy, they can simply move out to sea next game, to still hit London turn US4 or stage the UK cruiser from 85 in 106.
Once in London, a simple declaration of war against Spain can also catch the US fleet by surprise as this permits the Japanese air force to attack sz 91 (West Gibraltar sea zone) and permits them to fly “over” Spain to land in axis Europe. (sz109->sz104->sz91->Spain->Normandy/and or/South France).
I realize it is possible (although unlikely at first) for the UK to stage 2 infantry and 1 armor in Alberta by turn 2. Using Ontario and Quebec starting forces. This should be clear by turn G2.
Last night I experimented with taking Scotland from sz 109 G2 by placing a BB,CA,Sub there hoping to draw the UK fighters into a battle and also to protect the German transport, thus permitting any units in Scotland to hit with other units transported into London G3.
I am toying with a second transport G2 non combat to drop off 1 infantry and 1 AA gun in Scotland as well. Giving me 3 more units for the G3 assault, using 2 of my transports “twice” and a chance to kill UK air units if they help to hit Scotland. 3 land units in Scotland may draw too many UK units if they take, and hit and runs are not likely with 2 artillery and 1 armor as the UK offense. This leaves 1 transport on G2 for Iceland/and Alberta.
Either way, any units spent killing my 3 land units in Scotland should make capturing London G3 easier. If they live, that is 3 more units to use against London turn 3. It also permits convoy raiding for 4.
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