• THis is actually a thought that developed from a previous thread… to show how even a SMALL bid can destroy the game.

    Scenario:  Germany with a bid of just 8 IPC’s, Russia Restricted.

    Bid Buy:  1 Transport, Baltic sea zone.

    R1:  Russia does whatever (does not matter)

    G1:

    Buy:
    Germany rolls 6 tech rolls (odds are, 1 hit) and saves 2 IPC’s.  Results of Tech Roll:
    1.  Industrial Tech:  Germany is now an INF building machine.  Will not matter if this strategy works or not, Germany will be able to “Fortress Europe” until the cows come home.
    2.  Super Subs:  Will make the following naval battle that much easier, save a fighter for later use.
    3.  Long Range Aircraft:  Basically elliminates AA risk to following attack by allowing 3 figs to participate (other 2 are used for naval)
    4.  Rockets:  Will speed up crushing Russia if this attack works, or help balance out not buying in G1 if it fails.
    5.  Jets:  If attack fails, remaining German figs will be even stronger on defense, vastly improved Fortess Europe.
    6.  Heavy Bombers:  Guaranteed victory in followign attack.

    Combat Moves:
    UK Sea Zone:  Eastern, Ukraine and German figs (unless Long Range hit, then German fig to UK).  Both subs.  Loaded trannies (see below)

    UK:  Empty 2 trannies with 4 INF (3 from Norway, 1 from Western), Norway fig, Western fig, Bomber (and German fig if LRAF tech)

    Gibraltar Sea Zone:  1 BB and 1 Tranny against UK BB

    Africa:  Blitz open territories for 3 IPC’s

    Caucuses:  If Russia leaves it almost totally empty, attack with land forces, otherwise nothign in Europe

    Combat:

    UK Sea Zone:  The subs and figs destroy the up to 1 BB, 2 trannies and 1 sub present.  Only question is how much survives.

    UK:  The average 1st attack is 3 UK units dead (all land forces).  Defender roll is average 3 attackers dead (3 INF)
    2nd roll is 2 UK units dead (fig and bomber), defender is 2 attackers dead (2 figs).
    3rd rolls is 1 UK unit dead, last fig (all gone) and defender 1 attacker dead, bomber (1 INF alive)

    UK FALLS, Germany raids 30 IPC’s, and is up 8 IPC’s.

    (whatever happens with other attacks, if any)

    Germany collects 43 IPC’s, plus 30 raided from UK, plus 2 saved.  Germany has 75 IPC’s for G2.

    GAME OVER.

  • Moderator

    Germany can do that without the Bid.

    Regardless, it is pointless to play the game if you are going to try Sealion on G1.

    Solution:  Play no tech.

    Normal game - no bid.

    UK 1 buy 6 dice.
    US 1 buy 6 dice.
    UK 2 buy 5 dice.
    US 2 buy 6 dice.

    Game over.

    It works both ways.

  • Moderator

    This is similar to the G1 attack on Kar.

    Yes you can do it, but why reduce the game to a crap shoot.  Good dice you may win, but avg or bad dice you lose.

    Why play the game if you are going to try and end it less than half way through rd 1?

    Personally I perfer no tech games, and try to avoid the G1 kar attack as well.

    This is why Afr bids tend to be used more.  It gives the Axis a shot to win games in the mid rds (4-8) or even longer term games depending on playout, rather than a Power Europe bid or the scenerio you laid out where the game is over in less than 3 rds.

    That just isn’t fun, IMO.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    That just isn’t fun, IMO.

    That was my point.  I guess I am just a purist… that is why I keep working on the “no-bid” answer

  • Moderator

    I like a no-bid game every now and then as well, but against on-line play or a capable Allied opponent there just is no no-bid answer, barring some good to great rd 1 dice.

    The problem arises because play has developed where the Allies can give the Axis 21+ IPC and still win at least 50% of the time.

    Simply put, Russia can do far too much damage to the Axis, before they can even move.

    I believe a fairly common R1 move is attack the Baltic, the WE sz sub and Ukr, that can absolutely crush the Germans before they even move.

    RR solves some of that, but still doesn’t help the Germans in Afr, since UK will counter Egy on UK1 and box in the German ships in the Med.  Then kill them on UK 2.

    You need at least a little help in Afr to be competitive.

    RR with Axis Adv is nice to try, but the real adv to this is a Japan Tech Strat starting in about rd 4.  But I’m not a fan of tech, so I don’t really play that.

    There is just no way around bids for on-line play, and unfortunately most strats not taking into account at least some bid aren’t going to be taken too seriously by experienced on-line players.

    Don’t worry, I still look for the unbeatable strat as well, but have been told numerous times it doesn’t exist.  I know that.  But it is still fun to look.  😄


  • I have to agree that if you’re not playing for fun (unless maybe a tournament with pay-outs?), then you probably shouldn’t play.  I’d love to find the perfect strategy, but when you factor in the dice/luck, there might not be one.

    Also, have to point out (even though Maximus made his counterpoint) that with RR, most Russia players would move their sub and tranny to the UK seazone, thereby making your strategy very difficult.  Obviously, if they didn’t do that, then you might go for Sealion…


  • Yeah. I personally like not playing with RR, but with bids. I would rather have a higher bid than RR. I like having the flexibility to do what I please as Russia. Also, like DM, I don’t like tech rolls. I’d rather give a tech up front than add a completely random element to the game.

    If you don’t get any tech rolls, your odds on britain are only at 40% to take with a ground unit. If I see you build a transport with your build, you better believe I am transporting an inf or two over in RR. 1 inf gives you a 21% chance, 2 gives you a 8% chance. Hell even with heavy bombers you’d have a tough time on the above with 2 inf, less than 50%. Sure the above allows you to take karelia easier, but your chances are still at most marginal. Didn’t I see you state in another thread that if you were just going to do X why even bother playing? The same applies to above.

    If you want you can easily make it so that bids can’t be used to by naval units. It really isn’t a firm process.

  • Moderator

    @aaFiendish:

    If you don’t get any tech rolls, your odds on britain are only at 40% to take with a ground unit. If I see you build a transport with your build, you better believe I am transporting an inf or two over in RR. 1 inf gives you a 21% chance, 2 gives you a 8% chance. Hell even with heavy bombers you’d have a tough time on the above with 2 inf, less than 50%. Sure the above allows you to take karelia easier, but your chances are still at most marginal. Didn’t I see you state in another thread that if you were just going to do X why even bother playing? The same applies to above.

    Good point about bringing over 2 Russian inf to help.  You can even bring over a Russian Ftr or 2.
    Even with bringing over Russian units, you can still have somewhere in the range of 17 inf, 3 arm and 0-2 ftrs defending in Kar.
    It is still a mistake for the Germans to attack, as UK will likely be able to counter and Rus can then counter as well.


  • I’m a bit confused.

    If Germany is attacking UK, then they will only be attacking Karelia with infantry and tanks, so even with the loss of 2 inf, and perhaps the Russian planes, Karelia should survive a German assault.

    However, the UK would not be able to counter in Karelia because doesn’t the German transports in the North Sea block the UK transport off E. Canada? UK could therefore only sink the German transports and perhaps do a strat bombing run on Germany.  Or are we talking about the Germans switching to Karelia with all available forces if the Russians reinforces the UK?

  • Moderator

    Oops, I ment if Russia pulls 2 inf and a ftr or 2 to UK on R1 (because German bid a tranny to the baltic), but this in turn discourages the German assualt on UK because they would now be looking at 4 inf, 1 arm, 3-4 ftrs, 1 bom plus aa-gun for defense.

    Germany could then turn to and look to attack Kar as Plan B.  They could muster 13 inf (with additional tran) and arm and planes as well against about 17 inf, 3 arm, 0-2 ftrs.

    I ment it only as Germany could do either:
    1)  attack UK (unless Russia helps defend) OR
    2)  attack Kar (because Russia helped defend UK)

    But they couldn’t do both.


  • Just pointing out that in the original strategy post, the Russia navy WAS present in UK sea zone (thus 1 BB, 2 tranny, 1 sub).

    You would NOT also strike against Karelia in G1.  You would set that up for G3 or G4 after you did your 75 IPC buy.

    A Russian fig or 2 to England to protect against this move would be GREAT for Germany…
    You would still have 2 Batlic trannies (from the 8 IPC bid) to land 2 extra INF in Karelia, have 2 “sure kills” less against your attacking forces every round, in short, you take Karelia in a total blitz on G1 (and probably still can take out the UK navy with the subs and a couple of figs)

    As far as finding the “perfect” move, there isn;t one.  All moves have counters.  What there are are ways to work around some of the common strategies (like Japan going central Asia to bypass the Yakut stack, spread Russia out a bit to need THREE hard points instead of only 2, and do this immediately (J1) so that there is an improved chance of Germany or Russia finding a crack in the INF to exploit.  Russia CAN’T hold everything at once if pressured against Yakut AND Novo AND Karelia AND Caucuses


  • @ncscswitch:

    Just pointing out that in the original strategy post, the Russia navy WAS present in UK sea zone (thus 1 BB, 2 tranny, 1 sub).

    Doh - sorry.  I just saw the “Russia does whatever” and didn’t pay attention to the exact pieces when you were resolving combat.  Shouldn’t have short-changed you on that one!

    As far as finding the “perfect” move, there isn;t one.  All moves have counters.  What there are are ways to work around some of the common strategies (like Japan going central Asia to bypass the Yakut stack, spread Russia out a bit to need THREE hard points instead of only 2, and do this immediately (J1) so that there is an improved chance of Germany or Russia finding a crack in the INF to exploit.  Russia CAN’T hold everything at once if pressured against Yakut AND Novo AND Karelia AND Caucuses

    And this is why we love Japan, right?


  • @Jermofoot:

    And this is why we love Japan, right?

    Damn Skippy!  😄

  • Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    A Russian fig or 2 to England to protect against this move would be GREAT for Germany…
    You would still have 2 Batlic trannies (from the 8 IPC bid) to land 2 extra INF in Karelia, have 2 “sure kills” less against your attacking forces every round, in short, you take Karelia in a total blitz on G1 (and probably still can take out the UK navy with the subs and a couple of figs)

    Wrong.
    As Russia I will invite a G1 attack on Kar if I have 17 inf, 3 arm, 1 ftr.
    The best G can do is 13 inf, 7 arm.  Which means they’ll need about 3 planes to ensure a good shot at a victory and that is with no aa hits by Russia.
    Even so G takes with about 2 arm.  Russia can easily counter this (even if Allied ships are destroyed) with 2 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr.

    You can even try to bait the Germans by leaving the 17 inf and 1 ftr in Kar, while you have 2 inf and 4 arm ready for a counter attack.

    Also, All Russia has to do is fly over the 2 ftrs to UK and that kills the shot at Sealion.
    You leave the 3 arm in Mos, move the 2 Eve inf to Mos, 1 arm to Novo

    Now Germany is looking at 19 inf in Kar.  Again they take with maybe 1-2 arm, and Russia Crushes them on R2 with 2 inf, 4 arm, 2 ftrs.
    Or just defend with 19 inf, 3 arm.

    You can probably even use a PE Allied defense if you were really worried about Kar. (since you went to defend UK)
    The loss of Kar by Russia is not a game killer, if it is planned for by the Allies.

    What there are are ways to work around some of the common strategies (like Japan going central Asia to bypass the Yakut stack, spread Russia out a bit to need THREE hard points instead of only 2, and do this immediately (J1) so that there is an improved chance of Germany or Russia finding a crack in the INF to exploit.  Russia CAN’T hold everything at once if pressured against Yakut AND Novo AND Karelia AND Caucuses

    There is only one key point for Russia in the East and that is Novo.  Everything else is secondary.  If Russia must, a tactical retreat to Novo can be extremely troublesome for the Axis.

    Russia doesn’t need to hold everything they just need to keep the dynamic of Kar-Mos-Novo intact for as long as possible.


  • But in your strategy, you pull back in the east.

    Let’s run with the Sealion Scare and 1 Russia fig to UK.

    Germany still wipes out the UK fleet, except the Med sub, Canada and India trannies.  Karelia Falls with heavy German loses.

    If Russia went HEAVY to Karelia, then they are decimated, so is Germany (a couple of figs, the bomber, their build, plus a few forces moved to Eastern).  Russia has only their moved Eastern Theater forces and the 1 fig in UK.  If they went lighter and planned a counter, Germany still has a lot of forces on the board, including almost all of their AF to allow a second strike on Allied Navy (stopping tranny support until late T3 and maybe T4).  Germany will be out building Russia by mid30’s IPC’s to low 20’s IPC’s and falling.  Their offensive might, after the second Axis seizure of Karelia, is that 1 fighter, if it was not lost to AA (their armor was stuck their after re-taking Karelia in R2).  Even if they strafe only, the repeated risk of that fig to AA, and the potential for Germany to inflict losses is going to pile up, especially once Germany builds in Karelia in G3.  German seizure of Karelia also risks allied figs flown to Russia for defense.

    Meanwhile, Japan has a free ride.  No Yakut Stack.  They take Yakut, China, Sinkiang, and possibly India depending on what that fig did in UK1.  They have all of their figs on the continent, and can start SBR of Russia in J2.  Russia has almost nothing left in the east, half of their original forces shifted west to allow for re-taking Karelia and/or securing Russia.  Japan has 4 trannies shipping 8 INF on J2, 6 trannies on J3… tanks.  SFE falls in J2, as does Evenk and/or Kazakh.  Japan is getting paid upper 30’s, Russia is down to 15-18 for payment for R3… 5 INF per round.

    Turn 4 is where it gets interesting.  Germany has ONE solid shot at Russia.  They can take it in T4, or hold for T5 reinforcing in Karelia and Germany for the allied landings.  Best bet is to wait for T5, which is when the bulk of Japan’s trannied troops can reach Russia.  In T5, the Axis does a 1-2 punch at a Russia weakened by territory loss and Japan SBR’s.  Allied land forces are not present in Russia yet, and air reinforcement is limitted.

    If Russia holds agianst the 1-2 in T5, then it is up to Japan to hit them again in T6.  If Russia holds in T6, the Axis is toast… allied trannies are now reinforcing Russia via Karelia and taking German territory, and Japan can’t get forces to Russia fast enough, and has probably lost much of their AF in the 2 attacks.

    But, the odds are pretty good for the Axis in T5 🙂

  • Moderator

    No, you still stack Yak but you fall back to Novo in Rd 2 (if needed).

    The Important point for Russia is to not lose the Eastern inf in pointless defenses.

    Okay, G1 fakes Sealion, so Russia sends 1 ftr to UK.

    Russia stacks with 19 inf, 3 arm, 1 ftr.  Okay fine Ger takes with 1-2 arm.
    If you left the Med Sub that means no G1 Egy, did G go to Cauc on rd 1 as well, if not Russia can counter Kar with 3 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr.  Still, assume a counter with 2-1-1 and lets say Russia reclaims with 1 arm, 1 ftr.

    In the East Russia retreats 5 inf to Yak, arm to Novo.

    UK 1 - buys AC and tran.  (or buy bombers/ftrs or save cash)
    Since Ger didn’t go to Egy (or Syr) UK retreats 2 inf to Sin, Other UK units go to Persia via trn.
    land 3 UK ftrs in Mos (or land 1 ftr in Yak), 1 bom to Mos.

    So that is 4 inf in Sin (2 US and 2 UK) and
    2 inf, 1 arm in Per with trn in red sea.

    Japan CANNOT take Sin on J1.  Go ahead and take SFE, Ind and Chi if you want.

    US 1 - I’ll assume no Pearl and for the sake of simplicity say the US just goes to the Atl.
    buys trans.  All ftrs to UK.  All ftrs in Mos by rd 2-rd 3.
    Retreat 2 Sin Inf to Novo, bom to Mos

    Russia 2 - reclaimed Kar (as stated above), move 5 inf to Novo, place 7 inf in Mos

    UK 2 - Counter Ind, Fic, Chi???  Retreat to Novo as well???  Move 2 more ftrs to Mos (if bought)

    US move planes toward Mos.

    Etc.

    The point is Russia can have something like 7 ftrs in Moscow and plenty of inf to stave off attack.

    Japan isn’t going to be that strong and certainly won’t be threatening Moscow by rd 3 or 4, if the Allied player is playing right.  With NO LOSSES Japan can ONLY have 11 inf at Novo by rd 3, and that is not nearly enough to take and hold Novo by J3, not against good Allied play.

    Germany will not be able to threaten Mos as UK can directly transport to Kar by rd 3 (if needed) or get there by rd 4 if they go via Fin and US is shipping troops to Fin on rd 3.

    The Allies are far too powerful.  The Axis will be no where near taking Mos by rd 5.  Not even close IMO.  I’m guessing Japan wouldn’t even have Novo and Germany wouldn’t have Kar and infact with the loss of its offensive punch on G1, Germany will be boxed in Europe by rd 4 or so.


  • You are forgetting a few things:

    First off, the SECOND UK navy being blown to snot by the remaining German AF in G2  (It can be done, ALL of the trannies at least, leaves Germany with little to no AF, but can be done).  That means NO UK OR US reinforcements (other than figs) of Karelia prior to UK4, and none of Russia until UK5.  UK will be building trannies in UK3 which it can first use for Karelia in UK4, and then those surviving forces, if any, can go to Russia on UK5.  UK won;t be doing un-oposed landing in Karelia prior ro UK6, with forces reaching Russia en masse prior to UK7.

    So by Germany blitzing open territories and not hitting Egypt in G1, you pull out of Africa to Persia?  Cool.  I’ll add another 4 IPC’s to Germany free in G2.

    Russia does the Yakstack in R1.  OK,  UK pulls INF to Sinkiang and fig to Russia.

    In J1, I walk into India free (1 INF).  Hit China with Manchuria and Kwangtung INF (5 INF), plus Japan fig and bomber.  Heavy navy (surface ships only) go for Pearl.  Trannies go to Japan sea zone, picking up INF from Phillipines and Okinawa, filling up from Japan to land 4 INF in Manchuria.  2 figs and bomber land in Manchuria.

    Here is the optional part using your Asian Wall strategy…
    Burma and Manchuria figs to Karelia, adding 2 4’s to Germany’s defense.

    Also, you made an error in your calculations.  If Russia stacks Karelia with 19INF, 3 ARM and 1 FIG in R1, then there are NO ARM or FIGS in Caucuses for a counter.  That represents almost 100% of the forces Russia has available west of Russia at the end of R1 , your Karelia forces, your Caucuses forces, your Russia forces, and all of your build (other than the 1 fig in UK).  You have 1 INF either in Russia or Caucuses, 1 fig in UK, and 7 INF and 1 ARM in Yakut.

    So what are you going to counter-attack Karelia with in R2?  1 INF and 1 FIG?

    Also, if you stack Karelia that heavy, and I intend to go for it, I am going to use my med navy to land in Caucuses in G1 and ignore the Gibraltar Battleship.  Will make my navy battle in G2 a trifle harder, but still easilly winable with my remaining AF, even with US figs.

    So in G2, Germany has Caucuses with 2 INF after that 1 Russian INF was blown away by BB.  Germany has some number of forces in Karelia (whatever survived the inital onslaught), plus 2 Japan figs, and 4 INF 2ARM staged in Eastern ready to move forward.  They can build there this round also.

    If Germany wants, it can try for Russia in G2.  They will have 3+ ARM (the plus a matter of how many tanks survived the initial attack), 2 INF from Caucuses, and their remaining AF (2-4 figs and 1 bom).  Russia will have AT MOST  8 INF (their R2 build), 3 UK figs , 1 UK BOM, 1 ARM moved back from Yakut in R2.  An attack of 5 to 9 3’s, 2 1’s and a 4 against 9 2’s and 3 4’s.
    Attack Rating from 21 to 33 with 8 to 12 pieces
    Defense Rating MAX 30 with 12 pieces.

    That means that, if I survived Karelia with more than 3 tanks and a couple of figs,plus the figs that survived the UK navy in G1, Russia falls to Germany in G2. Then Germany drops it’s build in Karelia and Germany preparing for the UK to start minor landings, to hold for 1 round of serious attack before Germany does a 60 IPC build in G3.  Japan starts mopping up Russia’s few remaining forces by hitting Yak HARD, as well as hitting Sinkiang to remove UK’s forces in Asia, and in 2 rounds, the Continent is secure, Axis wins.

  • Moderator

    No.

    1)  Russia could still Counter with 2 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr.  (Remember 2 inf from eve to Mos, 1 arm to Novo, 1 ftr went to UK)

    2)  Germay attacking Kar when it has 19 inf, 3 arm, 1 ftr is a big mistake.

    2A)  You have to bring in 4 ftrs just to ensure you take it (that is with avg dice), which means 4 aa shots.  Maybe maybe you can get away with 3 but that is a huge risk for very little reward, IMO.
    2B)  That leaves ONLY 2 planes for UK sz and E Can.  So 2 Subs and 2 planes to UK sz???  Do you leave the E can tran???  The UK sz has 1 bb, 2 trns, 1 sub.  If you go in with only 2 subs an 2 planes there is a chance you’ll lose a ftr there.

    If you go to Kar you have to go all or nothing, meaning bring in all planes and kill off your ftrs before your tanks, which means you have to leave the Allied fleet.

    If you then take with 5-7 arm THEN you consider landing the Jap ftrs there.  Other wise you’ll lose your Jap ftrs with the UK counter and Russia follow-up.

    If you try to do both Kar and UK sz, and go for the wins, you are in for a world of hurt.

    So by Germany blitzing open territories and not hitting Egypt in G1, you pull out of Africa to Persia?  Cool.  I’ll add another 4 IPC’s to Germany free in G2.

    No.  Then UK transports back from Per to kill your arm.  Only this time I have the Unit that moved up to Ken, the 2 inf in Per (via trn), the arm, and my bom if needed.

    Also, you made an error in your calculations.  If Russia stacks Karelia with 19INF, 3 ARM and 1 FIG in R1, then there are NO ARM or FIGS in Caucuses for a counter.  That represents almost 100% of the forces Russia has available west of Russia at the end of R1 , your Karelia forces, your Caucuses forces, your Russia forces, and all of your build (other than the 1 fig in UK).  You have 1 INF either in Russia or Caucuses, 1 fig in UK, and 7 INF and 1 ARM in Yakut.

    Wrong.  2 inf from eve to Mos.  5 inf, 1 ftr in Yak is enough to defend with no Asia bid.  (see above for counter on G1, IF they even take Kar which is doubtful without significant ftr presence)

    Also, if you stack Karelia that heavy, and I intend to go for it, I am going to use my med navy to land in Caucuses in G1 and ignore the Gibraltar Battleship.  Will make my navy battle in G2 a trifle harder, but still easilly winable with my remaining AF, even with US figs.

    Wrong.  Your forced to leave some, if not all of the Allied fleet in the UK sz or E can as well.  You’ll need some planes in Kar.
    13 inf, 7 arm vs. 19 inf, 3 arm, 1 ftr That is a big mismatch.  You need at least 4 ftrs, and if you go with that much, you might as well bring all 6 and leave the Allied fleet.  Which again leaves the UK counter for Kar.

    If Germany wants, it can try for Russia in G2.  They will have 3+ ARM (the plus a matter of how many tanks survived the initial attack), 2 INF from Caucuses, and their remaining AF (2-4 figs and 1 bom).  Russia will have AT MOST  8 INF (their R2 build), 3 UK figs , 1 UK BOM, 1 ARM moved back from Yakut in R2.  An attack of 5 to 9 3’s, 2 1’s and a 4 against 9 2’s and 3 4’s.
    Attack Rating from 21 to 33 with 8 to 12 pieces
    Defense Rating MAX 30 with 12 pieces.

    That means that, if I survived Karelia with more than 3 tanks and a couple of figs,plus the figs that survived the UK navy in G1, Russia falls to Germany in G2. Then Germany drops it’s build in Karelia and Germany preparing for the UK to start minor landings, to hold for 1 round of serious attack before Germany does a 60 IPC build in G3.  Japan starts mopping up Russia’s few remaining forces by hitting Yak HARD, as well as hitting Sinkiang to remove UK’s forces in Asia, and in 2 rounds, the Continent is secure, Axis wins.

    Nope.
    Not without a bigger bid to Europe.
    You assume far too much.  If you want to go for the R2 kill, you have to go Kar heavy on G1 with all planes.  And you have to sacrifice planes instead of arm.  Meaning you leave the Allied fleet intact.

    Personally, I don’t go for Kar unless I think I can take with all 7 arm then land the 2 J ftrs, plus the 2 inf in Cauc and the 2 arm in EE.

    Also Russia can actually defend with 10 inf, 1 arm, 4 ftrs (1R ftr from UK, 3 UK ftrs), 2 boms (UK, US).

    Russia has 40 Defensive pts.

    Germany has the 2 inf in Cauc, but they still need about 14-15 3’s to take.  So with 7 arm left over in Kar and 2 in EE, you still need ALL 6 planes.  And again that assumes you lose 0 in rd 1, which is IMPOSSIBLE if you intend to take Kar and hold.

    You simply don’t have enough without a PE bid.

    Again, the Allies are too strong, hence the need for bids.  With RR I’d go 9-15 range and in regular 21+.
    Personally, I think 22 is enough for the Axis to be competitive.


  • We are going to have to make an appointment to play this one out in the spring when I get my new PC that can handle the java in the tripleA version, unless you have the Hasbro version and want to try their 2-player game sometime 🙂

    A few notes:
    1:  Western Europe fig to take out Canada tranny.
    2:  2 subs and 2 figs to take out UK fleet (so I might lose a fig)
    3.  2 figs, 1 bom, plus the 7 INF and the 13 INF (I think I already ran that battle sequence, it is close, but it is an axis victory.
    4.  Gibraltar BB lives, so does med sub and India tranny.

    Axis taking Karelia means that 2 of those 3 UK figs face AA on their way to Russia, as do both bombers.  Odds are 1 will be shot down.

    I forgot about the Evenk INF, thinking you had 7 INF in Yakut.  NP, just means Japan WILL crush Yakut in J2, might even do it in J1.

    If Russia counters in Karelia in R2, they will have ONLY 2 INF, 1 ARM, and 1 FIG to use, against 2 Japan figs, and whatever German land forces survived taking Karelia (at least 1 ARM).  2 1’s, and 2 3’s against at least 1 2 and 2 4’s.  8 Attack with 4 pieces against minimum defense of 10 with 3 pieces.  You attack and kill 1.  Counter kills 2.  You kill 1 again, I kill 2 more, Russia is dead, Karelia is still German with 1 Japan fig present.

    Germany builds in Karelia, moves 2 ARM and 4 INF to Karelia, and there is still a Japan fig there for defense.

    Your counter in Africa will be in UK2, after Germany gets paid for another 4 IPC’s there (now +7 in Africa).  So Germany is going to have a 40 IPC build in G3 (assume US took Norway in US1, though US could take Western so Germany could be only +4).

    By weakening the Yakstack to 5 INF only, you lose Yak and SFE in J2.  This is in addition to Japan taking Sinkiang (already had China and India).  Japan will also begin SBR’s in J2, taking away from Russia R3 and subsequent builds, about 1 less INF per round.  You are going to also pull forces out of Persia to counter in Africa in UK2, so now Japan can potentially take Persia.  Also, with the Japan fleet being our of business since Pearl, those surviving ships are heading for the Indian Ocean, so by J4, you are out of options for that tranny.

    At the start of R3, Russia has a problem…  Germany holds Karelia and is building there.  Japan holds Yakut and Sinkiang.  They have only 8 INF to use for defense (plus allied AF, everythign else died at Karelia on R1, or in the counter-strike on R2, and the 5 INF that died in Yakut in J1 or J2).  They have Japan poised to take another 6 IPC from them in Evenk, Novo, and Kazakh.  Major allied landings won;t begin until after Germany goes this round (US may have landed additional forces in Norway or Western in US2, but they will not be in position to assist Russia before G3, UK just started their fleet re-build in UK1, but no sizable number of trannies for use until UK3.

    It is not yet a loss for the Allies, but they are hard pressed.  Now it comes down to Germany’s builds, and whether Russia thins out to hold IPC’s or not, and how fast the Allies can start smashing against Karelia to break the Seige of Moscow.


  • Lastly, I forgot to mention that there is some question as to the number of Allied figs that can be in Russia.

    I assume that your UK based planes took out my Baltic trannies on the way by.  There is a 50/50 chance if you just used the 2 figs for that that I took 1 of them out with the trannies.  Then those surviving AF had to fly over the Karelia AA.

    I also assume that your sub and what originally was the India fig went after my Med navy.  In that battle I have a pretty fair shot of killing both the sub and the fig in a mutual destruction battle.

    On average, I would say that UK would end up with only 1 fig in Russia after UK2, not 3.

    But hey, if you want to leave my navy intact, then I have that many more forces in Karelia, and am able to BB and counter you in Africa and Middle East.

    I will say that I am concerned about leaving the Gibraltar BB intact in G1.  I think UK might skip the AC on their build, use the BB to anchor their fleet, and simply start dropping trannies with filling as fast as they can, combined with US filled trannies moving in on US2.

    I could be looking at a BB and 4 trannies on G2, with minimal AF to counter.

  • Moderator

    AA guns don’t fire during Non-Com.
    So you can safely Non-Com all planes to Mos.

    Always Active AA - is only an option and I didn’t include that.

    If you’re splitting your force to take out the Allied ships and hit Kar then 13, 7, 2, 1 is not enough to take Kar with any force.  With NO aa hits you can take with 2 arm killing your planes.  +/- an arm.

    Now what if Russia shoots down a plane?  You’re looking at a Russia HOLD with 3 arm, 1 ftr.  +/- a unit.

    Why reduce the game to a crap shoot?  50% of the time the Axis lose prior to UK 1 (when Russia holds)

    And the other 50% you only take with maybe 3 arm.  That is not enough to seriously threaten Moscow, even with Cauc and the EE arm.

    Further if you intend on landing J ftrs in Kar, that means you can’t use them in Chi.  They can’t do both.  Granted you can still take Chi with other air, but you do lose some offense.

    The key to Russia (in the East) is to not lose the Inf.  It doesn’t really matter if J takes Ind, Chi, SFE, Yak, and Sin.  The key territory is Novo.

    The Allies start with 11 inf in the East (7 R, 2 US, 2 UK), minus the 2 in Chi they are a lost cause.  Now even if you take out the 2 from Eve that still leaves 9.
    A tactical retreat can leave you with 9 inf in Novo.  Now, when Japan threatens you can even pull back to Mos and now place 5-6 inf in Mos.  Now If Japan trys to move Heavy into Novo, you strafe teh heck out them with 16-18 inf, 4 arm, 2 ftr (unless you bought move arm).  That means Japan needs 16-20 inf to even consider holding.  It takes Japan 3 turns to get units to Novo, But Russia’s placements are immediately usable.

    I don’t see Germany as being much of a threat in this scenerio.  Of the key battles they do (with the allocation you used) , there is a pretty good chance you lose one of them or at the very least have poor rolls in one and if it happens in UK sz or Kar it is game over before Japan even goes.

    You’re better off placing your 8 bid to Afr (1 arm, 1 inf) and strengthening Germany for the early rds giving Japan the time needed  to muster the force to crack Novo and hold.  Rather than an all or nothing on G1.

    Allied Support would arrive in Fin on rd2 and Kar by rd 3.  If you leave the BB, that means UK can buy 3 trns in rd 1 and 1 US tran leaves 4 with a bb.  I’ll bait this attack with the Allies and Germany will have lost at least 2 ftrs on G1, probably 3 (including the bom in Kar if they want to hold with multiple arm), so if they want to send 3 ftrs vs. 4 trns 1 bb, then go ahead.  Now Germany will be out of all its arm and air.

    Also rd 2 UK can go more trans (if needed) and US 1 purchase of 3 trns arrive in Fin on rd 2.  Which means both UK and US can get to Kar in rd 3.

    Obviously there are a lot of what ifs, but my main point is an all out G1 crap shoot on a heavily defended Kar is not the way to go.  You reduce your game to hoping for good to even great rolls.  Which simply won’t happen very often.  Yeah, maybe a game or 2 you get incredible dice, but over the long hall your going to end up losing probably 80-85% of the time or more.  I mean straight up the Allies win about 95% of the time, so you improve the Axis odds to 15%, not a difference maker because you still rely too heavily on dice for a win.

    Anyone got the odds of an Axis take of Kar with 2+ arm when the attack looks like this:
    13 inf, 7 arm, 2 ftrs, 1 bom vs. 19 inf, 3 arm, 1 ftr?

    I’ll gladly play you, only I don’t use AAA or play the CD online.

    I do however Play by Email.  It is really fun and requires no added tools.  There is a map to email, but you don’t even really need that.  I’d be glad to show you how it works.  Although, it is addictive, so be warned.   😄

    I’m currently playing Madscientist in a PBEM game (in the games section) and with Christmas this weekend, I won’t have the time till next Mon. or so. but think about if you want and let me know.  We could even just do some play testing if you didn’t have the time for a whole game.  Just play out till rd 3 or 4 and see how the game shakes out.

    EDIT:

    You’re right I’d probably kill your ships.
    But I don’t think the UK ftrs are that big of a deal, as I don’t think it would come to that.  Meaning I don’t think Ger can mount the threat where +/- a UK ftr or 2 will be needed.

    EDIT 2:

    You’re right about UK going right for trannies on UK 1 (as listed above)


  • @DarthMaximus:

    Anyone got the odds of an Axis take of Kar with 2+ arm when the attack looks like this:
    13 inf, 7 arm, 2 ftrs, 1 bom vs. 19 inf, 3 arm, 1 ftr?

    God dammit, I can’t keep up with you two. Good points on both sides. The only thing I was holding on to in the end that I could comment on was the fact that the US can reinforce KAR no problem, but DM got to that in his last post.

    Since I’m the odds man around here, I’ll lay it down for you:

    50% chance for attacker win, 48% chance for defender win, and about 2% chance for mutual kaboom.

    The interesting part is that if the defender wins they come out looking a lot better than the offender. 28% of the time the defender will come out of the battle with all of its armor and a fighter. Within that 28%, there is a roughly even divide between infantry. That is, of the 28% pie, it is evenly divided between holding with not only the armor and fighter, but 0 inf, 1 inf, 2 inf, 3 inf, 4 inf, 5 inf. It is just as likely that Russia will hold with 1 inf as it does with 4. On the flipside…

    There is about a 24% chance for the offense to succeed with armor on the ground, and saving its air. In that 24% chance there is a roughly even divide between 1 armor, 2 armor, 3 armor, 4 armor, and 5 armor. Talking outside of either of the above outcomes would be silly, as they would be very far from the mainstream dice.

    Hope that helps. Obviously, germany can take out its air sooner rather than later to improve what it takes with. It really is still such a crapshoot. I wish people would stop having pipedreams about karelia.


  • I wish people would stop having pipedreams about karelia.

    Not to mention that karelia is not Moscow…if Germany takes Karelia, that doesn’t mean the game is over for the Allies.


  • @aaFiendish:

    Hope that helps. Obviously, germany can take out its air sooner rather than later to improve what it takes with. It really is still such a crapshoot. I wish people would stop having pipedreams about karelia.

    Thank you Fiendish!  I had no idea the odds on that Karelia strike, even with taking out most of the UK navy, was such a close fight.  Literally 50/50, and within that 50% either way, damn near equal percentages for either side to have AF plus up to 5 ARM left.  I am honestly not sure that you could create a more “even” scenario in the game if you deliberately set out to do so 🙂

    Pipedrams about Karelia?  Well for Germany, it is a rather juicy target, and one that, if taken and held, is a sizable victory for Germany.  It cuts off Russia access to Eastern, Norway, and Ukraine and reduces Germany to only 2 territories to defend against Russia instead of 3 (or 4 if Germany takes Caucuses).  Taking Karelia also shuts down the Allied feed into Russia, a critical task for Germany: one that is accomplished initially by destroying allied navy, and hopefully is accomplished later by position on the ground.

    A quick whack and take of Karelia IS feasible (damn, I am back to where I started on this whole freakin board!  LOL).  And doing so leaves Germany in a strong position.  No, it is NOT Russia, but it is a key tactical AND strategic objective.  When combined with taking Caucuses through Naval landing as a joint push on G1, and combined with a strong Japan push from the east, it leaves Russia very weak very quickly; producing as few as 5 INF per round by R4, less losses to Japan SBR.  And I am sorry, if Germany has taken and held Karelia, and still hold it at the end of T4, Russia is toast.  No allied land forces are getting in to help them, Germany has forces in position for at least 1 swipe at Russia and is building forces at 3 times the rate Russia is, and Japan will be at the stage where their forces are poised for repeated swipes on Russia and building more than 2 times Russia’s level.  By J5, Japan is sending tanks against Russia at a rate of a half dozen or more per round, backed up by AF and some INF.  It won’t take long to whittle through the 20 or so INF and the couple of allied planes in Russia with that repeated volume of onslaught.  And if the Axis is able to set up the 1-2-3 strike with a strong Japan hit, a small Russia build, a strong German hit, and a second strong Japan hit, Russia is going to fall.

    And it does not matter who takes it.  If Germany gets it, great.  But even if Japan gets it, they are then able to pour forces into Europe to help Germany at the rate of 8 units per round of INF and ARM, and later figs and bombers.

  • Moderator

    Thanks for the odds aaFiendish.

    ncscs, yes while Kar can be important, the round 1 assualt can often do more harm than good.

    IMO, the best time to make the move on Kar would be right as Japan is about to take Novo.  Usually this can be about rd 5.

    This way Russia can do anything about it, can must concede both spots to the Axis.

    If you go too early (or without sufficient force) with either Novo or Kar, then Russia has the ability to defend the one taken and pull out of the other, then on the following turn do the same thing to the other side.
    It is similar to what Germany can do with WE-Ger-EE.

    I don’t like putting my hopes in a 50% battle, especially that early in the game.  I’d much rather place my bid in Afr, wait for Japan and then see if the battle shifts to 60%, 70%, 80% in my favor.

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