• SOURCE :
    http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1397233,00.html

    But, but…They weren’t authorized!

    The facts begin to leak out.

    I still say give 'em five years. Anyone remember how long it took a maid to find the missing Rose Law Firm billings in the Clinton White House closet?


  • Did you read the article further than that?

    No smoking gun, hints for a programme (which is the vocabulary that has been started to be used after the war!).
    Still i am waiting for the US to open their WMD labs to inspectors, and sign all of the WMD treaties.


  • I heard about this on the news, isn’t a scandal that the military in a democracy sends experts to an occupied country without telling the government first ?


  • People like El Jefe are those Americans which are alienating many Europeans. When opinons like these are brought forward by people calling themselves the “greatest nation on Earth”, many people fear that the former protector of democracy and liberty is more and more becoming a threat to the liberal ideas it once defended.

    I hope El Jefe is putting his life where his mouth is and is allready enscripted for military duty in Iraq. I can’t convince him that things are going not good in Iraq, if even the soldiers raising their voice against the American governement can’t convince him.

    Markus.


  • F_ , yes.
    It is just another source… not a final definative UN, EU, World Court approved treatise!

    Me_. Served in Vietnam and again Reserve support in PGW I.

    The reporters have had to search to find those whinners. I know because I have friends still serving who have argued with and kicked the ass of a whinner or two.

    They signed up to serve their country. What did they(you) think? They were signing up for a nearly free education?!


  • @Meijing:

    I hope El Jefe is putting his life where his mouth is and is allready enscripted for military duty in Iraq. I can’t convince him that things are going not good in Iraq, if even the soldiers raising their voice against the American governement can’t convince him.

    The only thing I hear soldiers complaining about here in Kuwait is the fact that we’ve been here over 6 months (it should have only been 6 mos.) and the fact that it’s hotter than h*ll over here. So a) the army made a mistake, and b)I don’t think they can do anything about this.
    Of course, I’m only a logistics specialist, so maybe my opinion doesn’t count. 🙂


  • @El:

    F_ , yes.
    It is just another source… not a final definative UN, EU, World Court approved treatise!

    But you ignore the fact that it is “programs” and not the (before the war so very threatening and existing, so existing that you could prove it) actual weapons. The “programs”-scare and vocabulary was used after the war.


  • You’re right many people think the army is a chance for them to escape poverty, to get some decent education or maybe to become a hero, but that’s not true. Joining the army means killing and dieing for your country. Maybe the US Army should stop all those missleading advertisements.
    But this doesn’t change the fact that the American governement made promisses they could not hold. They told them, that they will be home soon, but they are still in Iraq and will be there for some more time. They told them, that the Iraqis will cheer when they are “liberated”, but they didn’t tell them about those bringing death to the occupation forces.


  • Joining the army is a chance to escape poverty and get a decent education. As for being a hero, it depends what your own individual definition of hero is. If you think saving the lives of your fellow soldiers, or innocent civilians can be considered heroism (I do) than joining the army can in fact provide a chance to become a hero.


  • Maybe the US Army should stop all those missleading advertisements.

    How do you know? Perhaps the people in those ads actually feel that way.

    But this doesn’t change the fact that the American governement made promisses they could not hold. They told them, that they will be home soon, but they are still in Iraq and will be there for some more time. They told them, that the Iraqis will cheer when they are “liberated”, but they didn’t tell them about those bringing death to the occupation forces.

    I don’t recall being promised anything. My orders say I could be here for 6-12 months. I have 5 more months before they’re wrong. I also believe that they said there would be some resistance afterwards, but even if they didn’t, it’s not like it would have been unexpected.


  • @Janus1:

    Joining the army is a chance to escape poverty and get a decent education. As for being a hero, it depends what your own individual definition of hero is. If you think saving the lives of your fellow soldiers, or innocent civilians can be considered heroism (I do) than joining the army can in fact provide a chance to become a hero.

    If you are lucky you might become a hero, if you are unlucky you will end up killing some of those innocent civilians. If you want to be hero try to do something to help all the poor people in the world.

    If my impression is correct you are right about the chance to escape poverty and the chance to get a decent education, but shouldn’t everyone have a chance to get a decent education without joining the army ?


  • If my impression is correct you are right about the chance to escape poverty and the chance to get a decent education, but shouldn’t everyone have a chance to get a decent education without joining the army ?

    Anybody can get a decent secondary education as long as they try and work hard for one (finanical aid, scholarships, student loans). However, the ROTC just means your getting an entirerly paid college education, plus stending money. It’s great when you don’t want to leave college finding yourself thousands of dollars in debt in return for service to your country. Everyone has a chance for a decent education, it’s all a matter of in what form you want to give back.


  • @Meijing:

    I hope El Jefe is putting his life where his mouth is and is allready enscripted for military duty in Iraq. I can’t convince him that things are going not good in Iraq, if even the soldiers raising their voice against the American governement can’t convince him.

    Markus.

    This is such a load of crockshit. Now, whoever supports a war against Iraq is automatically obligated to enlist in the military? How about my 70 year old grandma, she supports it…wanna see her behind the wheel of an M1A1?

    Have you even talked to a US soldier from over there? One soldiers opinion doesn’t neccessarily give an accurate depiction of the overall operation.

    What about the soldiers that support the war in Iraq, and do see it going successfully? Are they just vetoed by the slim minority that is bitter about having to be over there 6 months?


  • Hey, I know a lot of people who are bitter for staying here for more than six months. However, they just heard rumors that it would only be 6 months, so in a way, it’s their own fault for listening. I do support the war, but perhaps I am so far removed (only on the Kuwait/Iraq border) that I don’t deal with as much danger as frontline troops. So be it. I also am aware that perhaps my view is a little skewed, because things are better for me than those in Iraq itself, however my friend who is an MP says he is doing all right for being in Iraq, though some of his unit were wounded. Also, nobody ever said things would be perfect once the war was over, it’s just that now everything bad that happens is used against the White House as justification for the war being a mistake.


  • I don’t get this whole “i’ve joined the army so now life will be sweet” b-s. If i were to join the army, i would have the expectation of being sent anywhere, asked to kill anyone, and expected to risk my life constantly. If you don’t have this expectation, then you are looking for a sweet little desk job/MASH tent.
    imo


  • CC, where are you getting this “ive joined the army so now my life will be sweet?” where is that coming from? to my knowledge, it hasnt been said in this thread, so it seems to be completely random. if your reffering to the comments about the army being a opportunity to escape poverty and get a good education, it is not b-s, and it is also not “ive joined the army so now my life will be sweet”. If you enlist, the army will pay for you to go to college either after or during your term (im not sure about the specifics) and then you may or may not have to serve another term (again, not sure about the specifics, but no one forced you to join)
    Im sure its the same in the other branches (i know its the same for the marines, not sure about the navy or airforce, but i cant imagine why it would be different)
    Likewise, going to either West Point, or one of the Acadamies (either Navy or Air Force), which are very well respected colleges, you will get a free education (monetarily free, they actually pay you a basic “salary” which covers tuition and your basic needs for the school, i.e. books, computer, etc.) afterwards, you are required to serve in the army for i believe 5 years, but you are a commissioned officer (2nd Grade Lieutenant), and you can go to graduate school on the Army’s dime. This is your chance to get a good education. You can argue about the quality of any education from any American college or University, but one from West Point is among the best you will recieve from anywhere in the country, and those from the Naval and Air Force academies are among the best technical educations you can recieve (math and science oriented)
    As for escaping poverty, the salary for someone in the army is not bad, and if you stay long enough to retire, you get a guaranteed, decent pension. so while you wont live it up on a cushy army salary, you certainly arent poverty stricken on one.


  • @Janus1:

    CC, where are you getting this “ive joined the army so now my life will be sweet?” where is that coming from? to my knowledge, it hasnt been said in this thread, so it seems to be completely random. if your reffering to the comments about the army being a opportunity to escape poverty and get a good education, it is not b-s, and it is also not “ive joined the army so now my life will be sweet”. If you enlist, the army will pay for you to go to college either after or during your term (im not sure about the specifics) and then you may or may not have to serve another term (again, not sure about the specifics, but no one forced you to join)
    Im sure its the same in the other branches (i know its the same for the marines, not sure about the navy or airforce, but i cant imagine why it would be different)
    Likewise, going to either West Point, or one of the Acadamies (either Navy or Air Force), which are very well respected colleges, you will get a free education (monetarily free, they actually pay you a basic “salary” which covers tuition and your basic needs for the school, i.e. books, computer, etc.) afterwards, you are required to serve in the army for i believe 5 years, but you are a commissioned officer (2nd Grade Lieutenant), and you can go to graduate school on the Army’s dime. This is your chance to get a good education. You can argue about the quality of any education from any American college or University, but one from West Point is among the best you will recieve from anywhere in the country, and those from the Naval and Air Force academies are among the best technical educations you can recieve (math and science oriented)
    As for escaping poverty, the salary for someone in the army is not bad, and if you stay long enough to retire, you get a guaranteed, decent pension. so while you wont live it up on a cushy army salary, you certainly arent poverty stricken on one.

    do i even bother???
    this point was just related to people in the army who complain that life isn’t fun all the time. It was an exaggerated . . . ahh why bother.
    shut up Janus1.


  • <applause>I was wondering who the first one would be. Kudos.</applause>


  • @TG:

    If my impression is correct you are right about the chance to escape poverty and the chance to get a decent education, but shouldn’t everyone have a chance to get a decent education without joining the army ?

    Anybody can get a decent secondary education as long as they try and work hard for one (finanical aid, scholarships, student loans). However, the ROTC just means your getting an entirerly paid college education, plus stending money. It’s great when you don’t want to leave college finding yourself thousands of dollars in debt in return for service to your country. Everyone has a chance for a decent education, it’s all a matter of in what form you want to give back.

    OK, I am not American so I don’t know exactly how your system works. From what a friend in New Jersey have told me getting a good education in the US is expensive.


  • Yes, it can very expensive (especially if you intend to go out of state or at a private university), but it is still accessable to everyone (and the least of all in loans). But for the military, you pay the government back in service, not in money.


  • What if the banks do not consider you trustworthy enough for a loan? Will the Uni give one then? Or better: where do the loans come from, in general?


  • F_alk,
    what you heard or read is only part of what we got in the US. Many reasons were givenfor the Iraq move, but the media and oppenents of the action act as if only one point was made.

    me_,
    during the American Civil War the original activations were for short terms, but were lengthened as needed. I believe that some measures were also taken during the American Revolutionary War to ‘encourage the minutemen to continue the fight.’ Governments make mistakes… be it Czarist Russia, Napolean’s France, Nazi Germany, the Chinese Dynasties, the Roman Empire or the current US Administration.


  • What if the banks do not consider you trustworthy enough for a loan? Will the Uni give one then? Or better: where do the loans come from, in general?

    This is almost impossible. Almost any Uni will give you a student loan (depending on what your academic qualifications are), which are more preferable than other loans, while grants and scholarships will cover a lot of areas as well.


  • @F_alk:

    What if the banks do not consider you trustworthy enough for a loan? Will the Uni give one then? Or better: where do the loans come from, in general?

    why is the banks not considering one trustworthy enough for a loan a problem? If i could not trust someone - why would i give them money?
    In Canada, the Canada student loans program is such that everyone with a legitimate need gets money for education. Granted, it is not a country-club living situation, and the amount/conditions that they give requires a certain equity level (or lower), however the whole loans program is set up only by need. If you have, you don’t get. Trustworthyness does not really enter into it (unless you told them you had no intention of ever giving the money back, or using it to build a nuclear missle - see Steven Wright).


  • @cystic:

    Trustworthyness does not really enter into it (unless you told them you had no intention of ever giving the money back, or using it to build a nuclear missle - see Steven Wright).

    What did Steven Wright say about it?

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