• My friends and I recently played a couple of 1940 global games.  I usually play the axis and they play the allies.  I am having a terrible time understanding how any of you even threaten Britain with a sealion.  I’m trying to understand some of your first turn moves as Germany.

    Germany obviously has a lot of air units available to attack Britain’s navy, but at what cost?  Even though their navy is spread out around Britain it seems to me that you have to sacrifice some of your air units to take them out (and I see them being more usefull instead of trades in turn 1 to take out B’s navy)…unless the British player has some of the worst rolls ever I don’t see how Germany can’t lose a lot of its air force.  Also, considering Britain can scramble fighters I don’t see Germany straight out winning every engagement without taking a good deal of losses themselves.

    I’m trying to figure out what German players do in order to have a sealion because I don’t see how it’s possible.  I see Germany losing a good chunk of their air units taking out Britain’s navy…and I don’t see how you can reasonably conduct successful landings with 2-3 transports and a fraction of the air units Germany originally starts with.  Unless the British player is completely dumb, I don’t see how a sealion is possible (also, Germany risks so much).

    Can someone please explain how any of you do this?

  • Customizer

    Here you go.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=20231.0

    Its for OOB, but it just gets better and better for Alpha 2 and 3 with the extra planes and tanks Germany gets to use to bring the odds up.

    All the Sealions out there are just variations of the basic plan, which is:

    Buy 1 CV and usually 2 TTs
    Hit as much of the UK fleet as you can
    Buy as many TTs on Turn 2 as you can
    Take London Turn 3
    Use TTs to bring everything to Pol Turn 4
    Advance to Moscow (using Leningrad) and using the TTs to bring inf and art buys up to the front.


  • I understand that basic plan, but I still don’t see how it’s possible.  Here’s what I’m thinking…

    1.  The British player would have to be terrible and not realize what was going on.  Considering the axis player isn’t playing against an idiot I would assume Britain would easily have enough time to build up a tough defense.
    2.  Germany would lose a lot of its aircraft taking out Britain’s fleet.  Aircraft which in my opinion become vital for taking on Russia.  Even if you win every battle against Britain’s navy, Germany is still losing 0-2 aircraft per battle.  It’s not like you’re only attacking destroyers…you’re attacking battleships and cruisers and the possibility of scrambled fighters.
    3.  Germany wastes all of its starting IPCs buying an aircraft carrier and transports turn 1 for a risky plan.  The IPCs seem better spent on units for the buildup on the eastern front.
    4.  The remaining French and British ships can put up a sizable roadblock T2 to block transports…

    I’m not trying to say a sealion isn’t possible.  I’m just having a really hard time seeing how any of you do it without super lucky rolls and a terrible British player.


  • @stompy:

    I understand that basic plan, but I still don’t see how it’s possible.  Here’s what I’m thinking…

    1.  The British player would have to be terrible and not realize what was going on.  Considering the axis player isn’t playing against an idiot I would assume Britain would easily have enough time to build up a tough defense.If the German player is mildly proficient he gets the percentage up to 90-95%….good luck UK.
    2.  Germany would lose a lot of its aircraft taking out Britain’s fleet.  Aircraft which in my opinion become vital for taking on Russia.  Even if you win every battle against Britain’s navy, Germany is still losing 0-2 aircraft per battle.  It’s not like you’re only attacking destroyers…you’re attacking battleships and cruisers and the possibility of scrambled fighters. It is devastating to the Luftwaffe, I usually buy a few aircraft the turn after London falls(with my new ipcs) to rebuilt it.
    3.  Germany wastes all of its starting IPCs buying an aircraft carrier and transports turn 1 for a risky plan.  The IPCs seem better spent on units for the buildup on the eastern front.Wastes??  I cannot think of a unit that is a waste other than perhaps an aa gun.  Still that German carrier means the fleet can survive in the Baltic just fine.  I strongly suggest a German CV build even if you intend to go Barbarossa.
    4.  The remaining French and British ships can put up a sizable roadblock T2 to block transports…How?  Germany can squash any fleet with its planes and boats prior to Sealion.

    I’m not trying to say a sealion isn’t possible.  I’m just having a really hard time seeing how any of you do it without super lucky rolls and a terrible British player.


  • @JimmyHat:

    @stompy:

    I understand that basic plan, but I still don’t see how it’s possible.  Here’s what I’m thinking…

    1.  The British player would have to be terrible and not realize what was going on.  Considering the axis player isn’t playing against an idiot I would assume Britain would easily have enough time to build up a tough defense.[color=red]If the German player is mildly proficient he gets the percentage up to 90-95%…good luck UK.[/color]
    2.  Germany would lose a lot of its aircraft taking out Britain’s fleet.  Aircraft which in my opinion become vital for taking on Russia.  Even if you win every battle against Britain’s navy, Germany is still losing 0-2 aircraft per battle.  It’s not like you’re only attacking destroyers…you’re attacking battleships and cruisers and the possibility of scrambled fighters. [color=red]It is devastating to the Luftwaffe, I usually buy a few aircraft the turn after London falls(with my new ipcs) to rebuilt it. [/color]
    3.  Germany wastes all of its starting IPCs buying an aircraft carrier and transports turn 1 for a risky plan.  The IPCs seem better spent on units for the buildup on the eastern front.[color=red]Wastes??  I cannot think of a unit that is a waste other than perhaps an aa gun.  Still that German carrier means the fleet can survive in the Baltic just fine.  I strongly suggest a German CV build even if you intend to go Barbarossa.[/color]
    4.  The remaining French and British ships can put up a sizable roadblock T2 to block transports…[color=red]How?  Germany can squash any fleet with its planes and boats prior to Sealion. [/color]

    I’m not trying to say a sealion isn’t possible.  I’m just having a really hard time seeing how any of you do it without super lucky rolls and a terrible British player.

    You agree with me that destroying Britain’s navy is devastating to Germany’s air units.  Also, you have to consider that you’re not going to win every sea battle.  With that in mind, I’m trying to figure out what you attack Britain with during a sealion.  A handful of air units and 4-6 land units as Germany?..against Britian’s 2-3 fighers, aa gun, bomber, 7-9 infantry by second turn?..(+ any ships Germany didn’t destroy)…

    I’m having a hard time seeing how this is possible and also how this is good strategy…

  • Customizer

    You shouldn’t be losing any planes on G1 unless you get unlucky.  If UK scrambles, the likely result is a 1 to 1 loss for UK, which is good for Sealion.

    You should lose 2 - 3 planes on the attack on London.  That’s it.

    You are not doing a turn 2 Sealion.

    You didn’t follow the link provided, and you didn’t read the posts.

    It says turn 3 you attack.

    You’ll have 13 TTs.  That’s 26 land units and all the airforce plus 2 amphib shots.  There are variations where you can get more units on London turn 3.


  • One thing I think you’re missing, stompy, is that a normal Sealion happens on G3, not G2.

    On G3 you buy 10 Transports, for a total of 13 Transports.
    This gives you 26 land units, not 6.

    Edit:  Darn it, Jim.

  • Customizer

    @Alsch91:

    One thing I think you’re missing, stompy, is that a normal Sealion happens on G3, not G2.

    On G3 you buy 10 Transports, for a total of 13 Transports.
    This gives you 26 land units, not 6.

    Edit:  Darn it, Jim.

    Sorry.

  • Customizer

    There’s also a G4 variation, I’d point out.


  • The last two weekends I was Germany and Sealion worked both times. The first one my dice went south when I turned against Russia, the second one my opponents didn’t have the rolls and I was able to win
      Turn 1  1 Carrier, 1 Destroyer, 1Sub
      Turn 2  8 Transports
      Turn 3  Inf, Art, Arm, and try to replace any aircraft lost and possibly a Sub

    Turn 1  Take the French Capital and hit Sea zones 112 with BB and CR and a plane or two.  S.Z. 111 with a Sub or two ( 118 &124).  110 I’ll send 6 planes ( 3 Tact’s & 3 Fighters) I also send the sub from 108. S.Z. 106 with a Sub or two, I will sometimes send a Sub down to S.Z. if I don’t send two at 106.  I hope they scramble on the 110 battle because with 7 attacks I can sink everything there and with some luck eliminate Fighters that they will need for defense of their Capital.  With the ALPHA+3 Germany has more planes (stat. bombers) that could help out.

    I also bring my Italian Airforce up to take out any British Navy that they may deploy in 110.

    Young Grasshopper has a good opening first 3 turn sealion stat posted in this thread just go look for it
      Pray to the dice gods or wear your lucky shirt,shoes,sweater, or whatever

    Good luck and keep on rollin

    Depending on what U.K. does determines how many Transports you’ll need to buy


  • Can fighters scramble from the UK? I was under the impression that fighters could only scramble from and island. An island being a territory within a sea zone. I don’t believe that the UK qualifies.


  • @spiderman251:

    Can fighters scramble from the UK? I was under the impression that fighters could only scramble from and island. An island being a territory within a sea zone. I don’t believe that the UK qualifies.

    per OOB rules, the UK territories do not count as islands and cannot scramble.  Per Alpha rules, airbases have been revised such that any airbase can scramble to adjacent seazones.


  • A variation on sealion I’d suggest is to make bomber buys G1, and strat. bomb London on G1 and G2.

    It sets up an interesting scenario; you can pass on the immediate Sealion, going Barbarossa and using those bombers to strat. bomb Russian IC’s, while at the same time keeping an eye on London… often times, the UK player is so excited to build IC’s in the middle east, or navy in Canada, that they neglect to pay off the damage, and even with a modest income the Germans can plop seven transports at once at any time (even better if you discretely build one or two in the meantime).

    Of course, against a perfect opponent such nefariousness is not possible, but nobody is perfect.


  • How about 2 bombers, 1 sub.  If UK builds all infantry, you stick the sub in z125 to block the Murmansk NO and the bombers help you kill Russians.  If London is weak, you convoy raid and bomb London, then use them in the sea lion attack itself.

  • Customizer

    How do you  defend sz112 from an attack on UK1?


  • You don’t.  Leave the surface ships in z113 or use them to attack z110 or z111 (assuming the the new setup).

  • Customizer

    In the new set up, the CAs are still in sz112.  You can’t get out.

    So you skip sz112.  Interesting.  What does France and UK do with those ships?


  • In Krieghund’s most recent proposed changes, the 112 CAs are moved -

    French ship to 110
    UK ship to 111.

    Along with a few other changes.
    None of those changes are official at all yet.

  • Customizer

    I’m aware of those changes, but is Larry even considering them, or is this Krieghund unofficially trying to make up for his boss’s mistakes that he himself won’t correct?


  • I like ALPHA+2 so far it has been the most challenging for the Axis. The 3 or 3.5 (I have both coppied on cardboard)  take too much away ( Brit’s in France, air & naval bases over the entire board) and seem to make easier for the Axis to get powerfull early in the game, and with a little luck the Allies cant catch up in time
    I forgot to say seazone 91 I send one sub about half the time, and seazone 111 a sub and a couple planes ( stat. bomber, a fighter or two and a tact. or two)  I change it a little each time seazone 112 a BB and Crusier and a plane or two and deploy my CV DD and sub there
    I say take the best of each one to make an ALPHA+16  give Germ. the extra Strat & Inf in Norway, Great Britian gets the tact, keep the BB for Russia etc.
    If it aint broke dont fix it


  • @jim010:

    I’m aware of those changes, but is Larry even considering them, or is this Krieghund unofficially trying to make up for his boss’s mistakes that he himself won’t correct?

    I can’t really say either way.  It seems to me like it’s just Krieg doign this, but I can’t speak for him.

    Surprise Attack -

    I agree with you.  I think Alpha 2 was quite a bit more balanced and had more interesting options for both sides, and many choices that had to be made.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    My question is, has anyone checked how Krieg’s alterations adjusts the percentages?

    Anyway, there’s literally no way for England to stop Sea Lion in Alpha 3, well, short of getting 21x 1’s on the dice!  The question is, what do you do after it falls?  Some have claimed the ridiculous tactic of buying all fleet for Russia on round 1 so the Russians can soften up the Germans for an American attack on Germany the round London dies (with the Americans in SZ 102).  Without the Russians, there’s not a snowball’s chance in hades of sinking the German fleet - but with the Russian fleet, perhaps Moscow becomes a juicier target?  It’s certainly possible to win a Barbarossa game, and if Russia goes full navy, shouldnt those odds improve?  Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad are 3 Victory Cities, London is one, and let’s not forget shifting priorties to Moscow grants Germany 70 IPC extra ground and air units for the attack (since they do not buy transports.)

  • Customizer

    Even Alpha 2 there was no way of getting Sealion below 60%.

    Russian navy?  Interesting.

    My first impulse is to laugh, but maybe there’s something to it?  Where do they build it?  Baltic or Arctic?


  • In the 3 games where Russia has bought into a navy it has only worked once. That was because Germany left their capital empty. That was one of the first games (ALPHA+2)
    The cost of even a DD is just that much less that Russia has in land units to stop the Germans.
    In one of our most recent games the Russian’s did buy into a navy but I think that was just for show because it was pretty much over. My dice went so far south it wasn’t funny.

  • Customizer

    So what you’re saying is that I should give into the impulse to laugh.

Suggested Topics

I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

69
Online

15.1k
Users

36.0k
Topics

1.5m
Posts