What IF canada stayed out of the war(IF)



  • juno beach, rcaf in Britain, ect.



  • I would guess the war would have ended pretty much the same way.  As 7/8 of the entire German war effort was for the Eastern front against Russia, clearly the East was the decisive battlefront anyway.

    It would have made the Western contributions smaller as there is no disputing the value of the Canadian contribution.  And the convoys would have been smaller and forced to travel farther distances to Europe.  Still, the US industrial capacity (as well as the UK) would still have enabled the convoys, the D-day invasion, and the other events that occurred in the Western front.

    What I think might have happened is that the D-day invasion would not have been ready as soon so that either it would have been delayed a couple months (perhaps ready in Aug or Sept.) or there would not have been an invasion of Italy.  These would have enabled Russia to control more of Europe during the cold war; Austria, more of Germany proper, and perhaps even Italy.


  • '12

    Although the Canadian involvement was well written about, in the big scheme of things, Canada contributed under 7-8% of the economic output and less in terms of manpower %.  9 out of 10 germans were killed by russians.  What percentage did Canada contribue to the other 10%?

    If Canada didn’t fight our economic output would still be on the allied side, maybe Dieppe doesn’t occur, no loss.  I somehow doubt the war would have lasted that much longer with or without Canada.



  • Um, the Allies would have won and the Axis lost.

    I suppose without the diaster at Dieppe and the subsequent lessons learned from the failure, Operation Overlord would have hit a few more bumps. Not to ignore the Canadian contribution to the conflict, but it was the U.S. and USSR who won the war.

    What if Bulgaria hadn’t partnered with the Axis?



  • Canada made some great contributions but again it’s kinda like if Bulgaria didn’t join the Axis. However if Canada hadn’t joined then I doubt Britain would have been at war either. There both very close in history and in the game  🙂



  • @Pvt.Ryan:

    Canada made some great contributions but again it’s kinda like if Bulgaria didn’t join the Axis. However if Canada hadn’t joined then I doubt Britain would have benn at war either. There both very close in history and in the game  🙂

    I believe you may be a little confused here. Canada was a member of the British dominion, not vice versa. Canada was in the war because England was, same with India (though many sided with the Axis), Burma, Australia and the rest of the Empire.

    Also, Britain was brought into war by a mutual defense pact between her, France and Poland. You do remember that Germany started the European conflict, right? England would never have set idly by as Germany sunk her ships and bombed her cities.

    As fun as AA may be to play, it’s not something on which you can base your understanding of WWII.


  • '10

    @Zhukov_2011:

    Um, the Allies would have won and the Axis lost.

    I suppose without the diaster at Dieppe and the subsequent lessons learned from the failure, Operation Overlord would have hit a few more bumps. Not to ignore the Canadian contribution to the conflict, but it was the U.S. and USSR who won the war.

    What if Bulgaria hadn’t partnered with the Axis?

    Correction I think here?  UK?  The war would have been lost in 1940 without Britain and the Commonwealth.

    How would D-day have occurred if Great Britain was overrun or subdued?  If the Axis had access to the resources of the Middle East and Africa? If the Burma road was closed and China was not supported?  If the Japanese had conquered India?  What would keep Turkey of Spain from joining the AXIS?

    If Canada and Australia had not declared war to support the United Kingdom in 1939… they would have been truly alone and most likely conquered.  That 7-8% seems small in the scope of the global conflict 1939-45, but in the “early war” it was the difference between victory and defeat. After Dunkirk, the ONLY fully equipped division in the UK was Canadian (maybe Sea Lion would look more attractive?), and Canadian training grounds and factories helped keep the RAF in the air, and the life line open to Britain across the seas.

    The War looked very different in 39-40, than it did in 44-45.

    If the Commonwealth (including Canada) had not supported Great Britain in 1939… The war would have been lost for the Allies.  And The European Axis would have had a free hand against the Soviet Union once that conflict started.



  • Field Marshal are you from the U.K. or one of Her former Commonwealths? Because you “speak” very passionately about this. I agree 100%. The UK and her Commonwealths held the line for the Soviets and Americans to aid in the final push. The victory over the Axis Powers was a joint effort, not just one or two countries efforts. As said by General Eisenhower “The free men of the world are marching together to victory” (or at least I think thats what he said  🙂 ).


  • '10

    @Pvt.Ryan:

    Field Marshal are you from the U.K. or one of Her former Commonwealths? Because you “speak” very passionately about this. I agree 100%. The UK and her Commonwealths held the line for the Soviets and Americans to aid in the final push. The victory over the Axis Powers was a joint effort, not just one or two countries efforts. As said by General Eisenhower “The free men of the world are marching together to victory” (or at least I think thats what he said  🙂 ).

    I 100% agree.  That is why I speak passionately when I hear the “USA/USSR won the war” line.  It drives me crazy.  I do happen to be of British origin and a Canadian, but I am not speaking from National Bias.  I will just as firmly defend other Nations and peoples that made contributions to victory.



  • @Zhukov_2011:

    @Pvt.Ryan:

    Canada made some great contributions but again it’s kinda like if Bulgaria didn’t join the Axis. However if Canada hadn’t joined then I doubt Britain would have benn at war either. There both very close in history and in the game  🙂

    I believe you may be a little confused here. Canada was a member of the British dominion, not vice versa. Canada was in the war because England was, same with India (though many sided with the Axis), Burma, Australia and the rest of the Empire.

    Also, Britain was brought into war by a mutual defense pact between her, France and Poland. You do remember that Germany started the European conflict, right? England would never have set idly by as Germany sunk her ships and bombed her cities.

    As fun as AA may be to play, it’s not something on which you can base your understanding of WWII.

    I assure you I’m “learned” in the Second World War. You misunderstood me. I meant that if Canada wasn’t at war then Britain wouldn’t have been at war either. I worded it different. Yes could you put the fact that Germany started the war and Britain retaliated in a memo entitled “Sh** I already know!”? Now unless you’ve come to try to insult my intelligence and wind up making yourself look like an idiot then lets get back to the topic. Now Zhukov what do you think would have happened if Canada hadn’t joined hmmm?



  • Yeah even the smallest nations like China. I think we can all agree they wern’t in the condition to invade Honshu but they fought hard and if Japan took all of China those troops could have bean heading around the Himilayas towards Calcutta.



  • @FieldMarshalGames:

    Correction I think here?  UK?  The war would have been lost in 1940 without Britain and the Commonwealth.

    No, no correction needed I think. I never said the war could have been won without Britain. The OP asked what would have changed if Canada had not contributed its military to the conflict, and I said very little. I believe most would agree with me. We are not talking about the numerous contributions made by other Commonwealth countries like Burma, India and Australia (and I never said anything about Canada’s resources, his post referenced Canada’s military contributions).

    Without a military contribution from Canada, the UK would have still been able to hang on. Understand that undertaking Sea Lion is more complex than purchasing transports for seven IPCs on round two and loading them up with troops based in Normandy. Germany did not have the transports, the navy, the landing craft, the close-support vessels, or the air force to have successfully undertaken such an operation. Nor did it have a firm grasp of what kind of water separates the Isles from the Continent or the tenacity of the foe that opposed her, and that would’ve meant many German boats on the bottom of the sea.

    It may be fun to play what-if, but it is a terribly misleading way of understanding the realities of WWII and you have obviously fallen into that trap. If this, than that, and this, and that, and then this again would have happened… well, that’s somewhat hard to say, wouldn’t you agree? You have a better understanding of the British mindset than I do. Would England have laid down its arms and just let the Gerrys walk over them if Canada had not supplied a few divisions and an RAF base?



  • a)canada joined after britan.
    b)canadian pilots helped to save britain while under constant bombing,
    learned valuble info at dieppe,and helped invade italy
    c)everyone cheack your history books(not you fmg)



  • Point proved. Canada joined AFTER the UK. In other words no UK, no Canada. We might as well be discussing “what if the UK hadn’t joined” in which case there may have been no war with France gone and Poland conquered. But we arn’t discussing that are we? So back the buisness!



  • @Pvt.Ryan:

    Now Zhukov what do you think would have happened if Canada hadn’t joined hmmm?

    @Zhukov_2011:

    Um, the Allies would have won and the Axis lost.

    I suppose without the diaster at Dieppe and the subsequent lessons learned from the failure, Operation Overlord would have hit a few more bumps. Not to ignore the Canadian contribution to the conflict, but it was the U.S. and USSR who won the war.

    What if Bulgaria hadn’t partnered with the Axis?



  • Ah and here we are again. ISn’t life funny that way? You always wind up in the same place. Just like war. It began and started in Berlin (of course this is another thing you could argue with so I suggest not hitting that post button  8-) ).



  • @Pvt.Ryan:

    It began and started in Berlin (of course this is another thing you could argue with so I suggest not hitting that post button  8-) ).

    No, I won’t argue this point, it’s the one point you’ve made that makes perfect sense (that is, if you focus only on the ETO), though of course my five-year-old nephew could tell you the Germans started the war. 😉



  • <sigh>Again you show your stupidity. But you know what? I’m gonna let you figure out why I said that on your own. Please lets end this before a moderator comes in here and bans us both (See that is what I call ending a war, something that can be done peacfully)</sigh>


  • '12

    Im Canadian, my moms uncle flew Lancaster bombers, my moms cousins were killed and captured at Dieppe, Im long lost cousins with Winston Churchill so I am certainly not anti-Canadian.  Canada didnt contribute a huge amount until 1942, the Canadian Navy had to be pulled from escort duty in the Atlantic until we got our act together.  We did fight above our weight, we we were 22 lbs fighters in an area with 250 Lb giants.



  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    Im Canadian, my moms uncle flew Lancaster bombers, my moms cousins were killed and captured at Dieppe, Im long lost cousins with Winston Churchill so I am certainly not anti-Canadian.  Canada didnt contribute a huge amount until 1942, the Canadian Navy had to be pulled from escort duty in the Atlantic until we got our act together.  We did fight above our weight, we we were 22 lbs fighters in an area with 250 Lb giants.

    Canadian military contributions were heroic and the resources the country provided proved of inestimable value, but the war was fought on such a global scale and, like you said, against the heavy weight powers of the time. So, Canada deserves every bit of WWII history it fought for, but it cannot be said that Britain would have fallen without the Canadian military contribution - the what-if scenario which this argument would inevitably boil down to.


  • '10

    @Zhukov_2011:

    @FieldMarshalGames:

    Correction I think here?  UK?  The war would have been lost in 1940 without Britain and the Commonwealth.

    No, no correction needed I think. I never said the war could have been won without Britain. The OP asked what would have changed if Canada had not contributed its military to the conflict, and I said very little. I believe most would agree with me. We are not talking about the numerous contributions made by other Commonwealth countries like Burma, India and Australia (and I never said anything about Canada’s resources, his post referenced Canada’s military contributions).

    Without a military contribution from Canada, the UK would have still been able to hang on. Understand that undertaking Sea Lion is more complex than purchasing transports for seven IPCs on round two and loading them up with troops based in Normandy. Germany did not have the transports, the navy, the landing craft, the close-support vessels, or the air force to have successfully undertaken such an operation. Nor did it have a firm grasp of what kind of water separates the Isles from the Continent or the tenacity of the foe that opposed her, and that would’ve meant many German boats on the bottom of the sea.

    It may be fun to play what-if, but it is a terribly misleading way of understanding the realities of WWII and you have obviously fallen into that trap. If this, than that, and this, and that, and then this again would have happened… well, that’s somewhat hard to say, wouldn’t you agree? You have a better understanding of the British mindset than I do. Would England have laid down its arms and just let the Gerrys walk over them if Canada had not supplied a few divisions and an RAF base?

    I don’t think that is the case.  Why don’t you hear it from Winston Churchill himself.  Read his Pulitzer Prize winning History on the Conflict The Second World War, Vol 2 ALONE.  Then you will discover just how un-prepared and at the mercy of the enemy Great Britain was.  Second to the Military support received by the UK in the Early war from Canada was the Moral support that England was not Alone…  Winston Churchill would not have been called to form a Government after the fall of Neville Chamberlain, but rather Lord Halifax, who was committed to a peace settlement with Germany in the face of what seemed impossible odds for victory and utter defeat and destruction.

    In this fragile period after the Fall of France and the evacuation from Normandy, with Luftwaffe attacks nightly on British cities…  Great Britain was near the point of collapse and most of the powers that be agreed a negotiated peace settlement was the only way out.  It was the Solidarity of the Commonwealth and Empire (thus the declaration of support from Canada also) that gave the United Kingdom any slight hope of final victory or even holding out.

    In conclusion; Being the largest British Dominion and closest to Great Britain, Had Canada not declared war on Germany in 1939 and began logistical and military support for the United Kingdom…  the British ability and will to stay the course and continue the conflict is in doubt.  Regardless if it was from actual Military defeat and invasion, or the internal victory of the Defeatist block who wanted to end the war and negotiate with Hitlers Germany.



  • Canada’s support in the dark days of 1940 would of been one of the deciding factors as to whether the U.K would remain at war with the Nazi’s. We talk about it today like the U.S joining the war is a given, the British government in 1940 while desperately wanting American assitance knew that it was far from a certainty. Without the collosally misguided Japanese attack on the United States Britain would of been forced to fight on alone and without the resources of the dominions like Canada, Britain would of been up shit creek without a paddle. Canada proving 7-8% of manpower and industrial capacity doesnt seem like much but in 1940 there was no U.S involvement in the war or the Soviet Union so Canada’s share of manpower and resources would of been far greater than 7 or 8%. Without the support of Canadian and Australian forces its possible British would of been defeated in North Africa.

    Also its not like the United States were willing to escort the Atlantic convoys during the early days of the war, without the mass produced Canadian corvettes and the other ships of the Royal Canadian navy Britain quite arguably could of starved in the early days of the Nazi U-boat campaign.

    I truly admire the Canadians for getting involved in the war, unlike Australia and South Africa its geographical location gave it a choice as to whether or not it wanted to fight the war. Had Australia or South Africa gone it alone they would of likely been conquered by another foreign power, while Canada could of just as easily come under the protection of the United States thanks to its proximity to the U.S.

    You really have to ask yourself could Britain of truly gone it alone without its English speaking dominions? I suppose you could think about like AAA, if Britain lost Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa in the first turn they would be pretty much finished. I personally believe without the help of the English speaking dominions Britain would of sued for peace sometime after Dunkirk.



  • I agree with you except for one statment. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think there were any Canadians involved in the North Africa campaign.



  • @Pvt.Ryan:

    I agree with you except for one statment. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think there were any Canadians involved in the North Africa campaign.

    No troops I believe but in the early days of the North Africa campaign the Canadians helped supply much of the equipment used by allied forces after the destruction or capture of much of the British army’s equipment at Dunkirk.


  • '10

    @Octospire:

    @Pvt.Ryan:

    I agree with you except for one statment. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think there were any Canadians involved in the North Africa campaign.

    No troops I believe but in the early days of the North Africa campaign the Canadians helped supply much of the equipment used by allied forces after the destruction or capture of much of the British army’s equipment at Dunkirk.

    And the Canadians fought in the Italian campaign also remember! But that is moving towards mid to late war and not part of this argument.


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