Yes, I have tried. It doesn’t work. With only 1 IPC, you can’t produce enough units to get your money’s worth out of it.
A "Sink"ing feeling with an IC in place
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So my question is, how would you counter this IC in Sink strat? Apparently TC has never lost using this tactic, which is quite something and believable and remarkable. Do you just put up a screening army in China and go around? Do you attempt to smash it head on with a whole lotta tanks? Do you pray to God that TC will continue drinking and in a fit of lunacy pull out all his Russian men and leave what little US men there are to be vanquished by the fanatical Japanese Army and air force?Â
I dont know the specifics of where everything is and what builds happened. But, can you try this…
1 - Take China heavy (all inf possible + all air possible)
2 - This means light pearl attack.You want heavy inf in china so a US1 factory would fall to 5-6 Inf + fighters + Bomber
Perhaps it works better if you get a bid armor FIC.
What do you think?
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what the general says is true, to my knowledge ive never lost with the sink build, keep in mind i dont set my mind to building the ic until after j1, it all depends on how heavily china is taken, plus the location of jap figs in j2 because this is the most vulneralbe point, was dropping 8 units from uk in kar every round which helped keep the pressure off russia at the german front
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what the general says is true, to my knowledge ive never lost with the sink build, keep in mind i dont set my mind to building the ic until after j1, it all depends on how heavily china is taken, plus the location of jap figs in j2 because this is the most vulneralbe point, was dropping 8 units from uk in kar every round which helped keep the pressure off russia at the german front
It’s the damndest thing.
I was just about to post something like "it’s only undefeated if one of following is true: A)tcnance is full of brown goodness, B)tcnance only uses that strat against noobs who are going to die no matter what he does anyways, C)the Ssinkiang factory is a response to the Axis move.
IT IS C
LOLZ
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In my tourney game against the classy TCNance, he put an IC in Sink and used that to hold Japan for pretty much the entire game. He pulled all his Russian forces back from the coast and left Bury and SFE empty. Any nearby forces from Novo and Kazakh he sent into SInk to reinforce the US IC he plopped down. After that he sent in more and more nearby infantry that were being pulled back. For pretty much the entire game he held that damn thing with the majority of his Russian armour and infantry with, of course, some of his American friends. Even with 3 ICs of my own on the mainland, I was unable to counter or get at or get passed that linch pin of his defences. Japan couldn’t do much for Germany, although Germany held her own fairly well right up until the very end, when my 17th Army was annhiliated in the Caucasus Mountains.
So my question is, how would you counter this IC in Sink strat? Apparently TC has never lost using this tactic, which is quite something and believable and remarkable. Do you just put up a screening army in China and go around? Do you attempt to smash it head on with a whole lotta tanks? Do you pray to God that TC will continue drinking and in a fit of lunacy pull out all his Russian men and leave what little US men there are to be vanquished by the fanatical Japanese Army and air force?
Just so you people know, at the end of the game, Japan had 13 inf, 11 art, 5 arm and 4 fighters parked in China, facing off against roughly 7 Russian armour, 17 Russian infantry, 3 ftrs, 6 US Inf, 2 art, and 4 armour. I thought about trying a strafe against his stack, but could never pull the trigger. The only trigger I ended up pulling was on ending the game.
1. One IC in Ssinkiang is not enough to hold Ssinkiang. Russia must EITHER drain its other resources (which it did, according to your post), OR Japan must not be attacking Ssinkiang with all it’s got.
2. If Ssinkiang had a stack of Russian infantry and tanks on it, A) the Germans should have been making serious progress, and should have taken Caucasus early, B) Japan should have redirected its attacks towards Yakut and India (once India falls, then Persia, the Allies have to pull back from Ssinkiang, because of the invasion routes to Moscow through Caucasus and Kazakh; once Yakut falls, the Allies have to pull back from Ssinkiang because of the invasion route to Moscow via Evenki and Novosibirsk.). C) there is no way in h*** that Japan should have bought 3 ICs in a stall game. I REALLY debate getting even ONE IC until after US1 when you know which way the Pacific battle will go. Even after a KGF strat, I will probably only go with building ONE IC. 2 ICs are totally useless on attack and defense; 6 tanks would serve your purpose far better. It is very simple; you produce 4 inf 4 tanks at your mainland IC and 3 tanks at your built IC (preferably in India or Frindochina), for 47 IPC. You do NOT NEED to build THREE BLOODY ICs.
“Even with 3 ICs of my own on the mainland”
No, ESPECIALLY with 3 ICs of your own on the mainland. HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT TO WIN A BATTLE WITHOUT TROOPS!
“Japan couldn’t do much for Germany, although Germany held her own fairly well right up until the very end”
With the majority of the Russians in Ssinkiang, Germany should not be “holding her own”. Germany should be kicking ass all over the godddamn map. Caucasus’s ass should be toast, and India not far behind.
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How do I “counter” a Ssinkiang IC? I don’t. I just do whatever I normally do in a game. If the Allies when KGF, I build a hell of a lot of Japanese tanks, stick a few infantry in front, and start moving those tanks around. Fodder infantry at front + mass tanks + air support = unsupportable Allied defense. If the Allies went KJF, I build fighters and infantry. Always build Japanese transports. And NEVER EVER BUILD ICs UNTIL AFTER THE FIRST US TURN, unless you want the red Star Trek shirt and the “Shoot Me” sign in neon letters fifty foot high hanging around your neck.
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“Just so you people know, at the end of the game, Japan had 13 inf, 11 art, 5 arm and 4 fighters parked in China, facing off against roughly 7 Russian armour, 17 Russian infantry, 3 ftrs, 6 US Inf, 2 art, and 4 armour.”
Let me make this clear. Artillery are frickin great. But NOT FOR JAPAN. FOR JAPAN THEY SUCK BALLS. It’s like you’re trying to hit someone with a locomotive, all they have to do is step off the tracks. Imagine, you have a few infantry in China, a few infantry in French Indochina, and a lot of tanks at French Indochina. Now your opponent either has to abandon Ssinkiang or India, because there is NO WAY THAT THE ALLIES CAN DEFEND BOTH TERRITORIES IN FORCE. Same thing for tanks at Manchuria threatening Yakut (the linchpin of the Soviet east) and Ssinkiang.
Next time, remember these four simple rules.
1. Build transports and either artillery or tanks on J1. Maximize your transports. Only break this rule if you know PRECISELY what you are doing.
2. If the Allies go KGF (i.e. you see big Atlantic fleet US build), you can MAYBE build an IC in Asia. You only build an IC on J2 if:
A) the Allies have NOT built an IC in Asia. (If they have, you can probably take it from them with Japanese tanks plus fighters plus infantry)
B) it looks like India is not going to fall by J3. (If it looks like you can snag India by J3, you save your IC bucks for India. A Japanese IC at India messes with the Allies quite a bit.)
C) the Allies have NOT built a Pacific fleet. I know this is just about exactly what I said when I said the Allies go KGF, but to clear, if the Allies maintain a decent Pacific fleet, you should BUILD NO ICS FOR JAPAN AT ALL, make infantry, tanks, transports, and fighters.
D) MOST IMPORTANT - if the Allies look like they’re running the hell away. If the Allies are trying to push up on the Japanese coast, congratulations! The Allies are retarded, and you can kill them with transported units from Japan. If the Allies are running away like cowardly dogs, you’ll need units to pursue them, hence the industrial complex.
3. Germany is not retard. Fight, Germany, fight.
4. USSR depends on heavy infantry, light to medium tanks, light fighters, and artillery when the Axis are on the doorstep. Germany uses infantry, artillery as convenient, possibly S. Europe or Baltic transport if they survive, to supplement infantry/artillery and mass tanks from G3-G4ish on. Japan uses transports to move infantry off the isolated islands, and loads of tanks to switch targets. Germany and Japan have to switch fighters in to defend their seas as necessary against the Allies. UK and US both try to run transports in to Europe and/or Africa while USSR staves off Japan, OR US/USSR press on Japan while UK fights Germany’s navy solo.
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In my tourney game against the classy TCNance, he put an IC in Sink and used that to hold Japan for pretty much the entire game. He pulled all his Russian forces back from the coast and left Bury and SFE empty. Any nearby forces from Novo and Kazakh he sent into SInk to reinforce the US IC he plopped down. After that he sent in more and more nearby infantry that were being pulled back. For pretty much the entire game he held that damn thing with the majority of his Russian armour and infantry with, of course, some of his American friends. Even with 3 ICs of my own on the mainland, I was unable to counter or get at or get passed that linch pin of his defences. Japan couldn’t do much for Germany, although Germany held her own fairly well right up until the very end, when my 17th Army was annhiliated in the Caucasus Mountains.
So my question is, how would you counter this IC in Sink strat? Apparently TC has never lost using this tactic, which is quite something and believable and remarkable. Do you just put up a screening army in China and go around? Do you attempt to smash it head on with a whole lotta tanks? Do you pray to God that TC will continue drinking and in a fit of lunacy pull out all his Russian men and leave what little US men there are to be vanquished by the fanatical Japanese Army and air force?Â
Just so you people know, at the end of the game, Japan had 13 inf, 11 art, 5 arm and 4 fighters parked in China, facing off against roughly 7 Russian armour, 17 Russian infantry, 3 ftrs, 6 US Inf, 2 art, and 4 armour. I thought about trying a strafe against his stack, but could never pull the trigger. The only trigger I ended up pulling was on ending the game.
…and I thought I was harsh… yeesh :)
1. One IC in Ssinkiang is not enough to hold Ssinkiang. Russia must EITHER drain its other resources (which it did, according to your post), OR Japan must not be attacking Ssinkiang with all it’s got.
2. If Ssinkiang had a stack of Russian infantry and tanks on it, A) the Germans should have been making serious progress, and should have taken Caucasus early, B) Japan should have redirected its attacks towards Yakut and India (once India falls, then Persia, the Allies have to pull back from Ssinkiang, because of the invasion routes to Moscow through Caucasus and Kazakh; once Yakut falls, the Allies have to pull back from Ssinkiang because of the invasion route to Moscow via Evenki and Novosibirsk.). C) there is no way in h*** that Japan should have bought 3 ICs in a stall game. I REALLY debate getting even ONE IC until after US1 when you know which way the Pacific battle will go. Even after a KGF strat, I will probably only go with building ONE IC. 2 ICs are totally useless on attack and defense; 6 tanks would serve your purpose far better. It is very simple; you produce 4 inf 4 tanks at your mainland IC and 3 tanks at your built IC (preferably in India or Frindochina), for 47 IPC. You do NOT NEED to build THREE BLOODY ICs.
“Even with 3 ICs of my own on the mainland”
No, ESPECIALLY with 3 ICs of your own on the mainland. HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT TO WIN A BATTLE WITHOUT TROOPS!
“Japan couldn’t do much for Germany, although Germany held her own fairly well right up until the very end”
With the majority of the Russians in Ssinkiang, Germany should not be “holding her own”. Germany should be kicking a** all over the godddamn map. Caucasus’s a** should be toast, and India not far behind.
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How do I “counter” a Ssinkiang IC? I don’t. I just do whatever I normally do in a game. If the Allies when KGF, I build a hell of a lot of Japanese tanks, stick a few infantry in front, and start moving those tanks around. Fodder infantry at front + mass tanks + air support = unsupportable Allied defense. If the Allies went KJF, I build fighters and infantry. Always build Japanese transports. And NEVER EVER BUILD ICs UNTIL AFTER THE FIRST US TURN, unless you want the red Star Trek shirt and the “Shoot Me” sign in neon letters fifty foot high hanging around your neck.
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“Just so you people know, at the end of the game, Japan had 13 inf, 11 art, 5 arm and 4 fighters parked in China, facing off against roughly 7 Russian armour, 17 Russian infantry, 3 ftrs, 6 US Inf, 2 art, and 4 armour.”
Let me make this clear. Artillery are frickin great. But NOT FOR JAPAN. FOR JAPAN THEY SUCK BALLS. It’s like you’re trying to hit someone with a locomotive, all they have to do is step off the tracks. Imagine, you have a few infantry in China, a few infantry in French Indochina, and a lot of tanks at French Indochina. Now your opponent either has to abandon Ssinkiang or India, because there is NO WAY THAT THE ALLIES CAN DEFEND BOTH TERRITORIES IN FORCE. Same thing for tanks at Manchuria threatening Yakut (the linchpin of the Soviet east) and Ssinkiang.
Next time, remember these four simple rules.
1. Build transports and either artillery or tanks on J1. Maximize your transports. Only break this rule if you know PRECISELY what you are doing.
2. If the Allies go KGF (i.e. you see big Atlantic fleet US build), you can MAYBE build an IC in Asia. You only build an IC on J2 if:
A) the Allies have NOT built an IC in Asia. (If they have, you can probably take it from them with Japanese tanks plus fighters plus infantry)
B) it looks like India is not going to fall by J3. (If it looks like you can snag India by J3, you save your IC bucks for India. A Japanese IC at India messes with the Allies quite a bit.)
C) the Allies have NOT built a Pacific fleet. I know this is just about exactly what I said when I said the Allies go KGF, but to clear, if the Allies maintain a decent Pacific fleet, you should BUILD NO ICS FOR JAPAN AT ALL, make infantry, tanks, transports, and fighters.
D) MOST IMPORTANT - if the Allies look like they’re running the hell away. If the Allies are trying to push up on the Japanese coast, congratulations! The Allies are retarded, and you can kill them with transported units from Japan. If the Allies are running away like cowardly dogs, you’ll need units to pursue them, hence the industrial complex.
3. Germany is not retard. Fight, Germany, fight.
4. USSR depends on heavy infantry, light to medium tanks, light fighters, and artillery when the Axis are on the doorstep. Germany uses infantry, artillery as convenient, possibly S. Europe or Baltic transport if they survive, to supplement infantry/artillery and mass tanks from G3-G4ish on. Japan uses transports to move infantry off the isolated islands, and loads of tanks to switch targets. Germany and Japan have to switch fighters in to defend their seas as necessary against the Allies. UK and US both try to run transports in to Europe and/or Africa while USSR staves off Japan, OR US/USSR press on Japan while UK fights Germany’s navy solo.
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I agree with evertyhing newpaintbrush said.
If anything, the loss should be attributed to Germany doing a bad job against russia. with the amount of infantry going into sinkiang, Hitler should have been chilin out max and relaxin all cool and shootin some b-ball outside of the Kremlin after a few turns. Honorable mention goes to Japan for not going through india or yakut.
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Flanking was how I handled this in a game against Nix a while back.
I kept the China/Sinkiang front stacked to a stalemate, then worked forces around via India and Yakut threatening to cut off the Allied forces in Sinkiang and catch them in a vise. He of course pulled back from Sinkiang (finally) and that allowed Japan to take that IC.
It DID take a while to accomplish because of the supporting USAF that was flown to Russia EARLY in the game.
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I agree with evertyhing newpaintbrush said.
If anything, the loss should be attributed to Germany doing a bad job against russia. with the amount of infantry going into sinkiang, Hitler should have been chilin out max and relaxin all cool and shootin some b-ball outside of the Kremlin after a few turns. Honorable mention goes to Japan for not going through india or yakut.
:oops: :roll:Yeah gee thanks for the compliment. The only thing I will admit is that TC handled Russia quite well against my…somewhat lack of experience against good players. Yeah, I probably should have planted the German flag in the Caucasus mountains sooner, but I guess I just wasn’t able to “see” a clear path to do so. Didn’t keep the end in mind, I suppose.
And NPB, for a pot-smoking owl, you might as well be Yoda in disguise sometimes. Those were definitely some good points you made. Yeah, I regretted some of those IC buys when I saw how little men I had on the board that weren’t stuck in China. Some guys were going north and a few south, but not enough I suppose. As Japan, I’ve just had bad experiences against others of getting strafed hardcore while in Sink and/or China and losing tons of material while the other guy somehow loses very little.
Obviously I didn’t read or take into consideration hard enough CSub’s paper on trannies versus ICs. Guess I now know why trannies can rule.
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Obviously I didn’t read or take into consideration hard enough CSub’s paper on trannies versus ICs. Guess I now know why trannies can rule.
A mix of both, with at least 1 mainland IC, is to my mind the best way to go as Japan… even if facing a KJF. The mainland IC allows you to get SOME forces into Asia every turn, even if your fleet has to sail off to deal with Allied shipping in the Pacific.
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I thought about quoting you as saying ‘trannies rule’ and just LOL for a while.
Oh well, now you know what to do in this situation.
Sorry about that ‘compliment’. I thought the Fresh Prince reference would make it slightly more goofy and not scolding.
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I thought about quoting you as saying ‘trannies rule’ and just LOL for a while.
Oh well, now you know what to do in this situation.
Sorry about that ‘compliment’. I thought the Fresh Prince reference would make it slightly more goofy and not scolding.
Actually, I thought you were being sarcastic when you said honourable mentions go to Japan for not going around. That’s what I was referring to. I did start to go around, but kept getting pushed back sometimes. And yeah, I was laughing when I started reading your Fresh Prince reference. I knew what you were referring to both in-game and by using the ref.
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i think everyone is missing the point that uk was doing a lot of dying on the russian front instead of russians
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I thought about quoting you as saying ‘trannies rule’ and just LOL for a while.
Oh well, now you know what to do in this situation.
Sorry about that ‘compliment’. I thought the Fresh Prince reference would make it slightly more goofy and not scolding.
Actually, I thought you were being sarcastic when you said honourable mentions go to Japan for not going around. That’s what I was referring to. I did start to go around, but kept getting pushed back sometimes. And yeah, I was laughing when I started reading your Fresh Prince reference. I knew what you were referring to both in-game and by using the ref.Â
Damn straight. That show was awesome.
My guess is you didnt commit fully to a flank?Â
i think everyone is missing the point that uk was doing a lot of dying on the russian front instead of russians
What was that UK fleet composed of?
On a side note, I hate stalemates. One tends to form in my games with Ukraine and Caucasus. When I see one forming, I start to hold troops in a territory behind it where they can be used for a counterattack after the stalemate breaks or where I can shift them into another direction of attack if need be. Another one pops up at Sinkiang and China, but to a lesser extent. It always seems like breaking through Sinkiang is on the back burner while i grab india and buryatia (and sometimes Australia) and there ends up being a standoff between 3 infantry on each side. I guess thats less of a stalemate and more of a dead front though.
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OK, is it just me or is this thread getting rather strange…
“Trannies Rule”
“Damn Straight”I feel like I am at some protest outside a Drag Queen performance :evil:
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i think everyone is missing the point that uk was doing a lot of dying on the russian front instead of russians
Why is that a point?
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I think he meant he used the UK troops as the fodder to keep Russia out of harm’s way while he shored up the US in Sink. And I’m not saying trannies rule, I’m saying … well I guess I’m saying they cost almost half as much as an IC and you can use the rest to buy troops and keep getting more and more men into Asia. And honestly, people on these boards like to take things out of context. A lot. You people should go work for the Enquirer or something. :roll:
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Trannies only cost half as much as an IC when you pick up the ones in a back alley downtown.
/tasteless
Somebody give me a rimshot!
<_<
Back on subject: I still dont see how the UK has enough resources to fend off Germany on the eastern front. 5 transports of infantry every turn while russia stacks on Caucasus? Im actually very interested in this stratgy now.
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Russia wasn’t stacking in the Caucasus, he was slightly stacking in WR, with UK forces slowly coming in from the north through Kar and Arch. That took a few rounds to build up and then he traded a territory or two before combining his forces and putting the UK stack in WR with the few Russian inf. I set the UK back by wiping out his entire Royal Navy without losing a single fighter in the process! :mrgreen: :-D And he had a BB, dest, and 4 trannies. I was quite surprised when I didn’t take any hits. I was more surprised that his BB didn’t get anything either. :-P So that set him back a round or two, and he even went and strafed my entire stack that took the Caucasus and from there, used his US army coming from the south to strafe more of me and then Russia finished the rest. My 17th Army Group under General C. U. Later was obliterated!!! And that was my entire armoured core too, so, that took what little bite I had out of the game.
And Cobert, if you can get the strat to work, all the more power to you.
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I need to try this in my next game. I probably wouldve done it with somemore defense on my transports.
Persia gets more important every game that I play, it seems like theres been a lot of times where theres a stack of allied tanks there ready to shift direction towards whichever battlefront needs them.
The more I look at the situation, the more I think the flaw of the axis was not moving through India quick enough, and that Germany was just doing their best to keep up.
Well see how this works out in my next game. It all seems very opportunistic though, an IC in sinkiang could be VERY bad if japan does well in china and has planes in FIC or Manchuria.
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ther in lies the key, how well japan takes china, look at our game thread in the tourney section
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