Rule Clarification (Sub vs. BB)

[trihero]

Subs are the most efficient anti-navy unit per IPC. 3 subs will win out against 2 destroyers, or 1 battleship. They offer decent enough attack/defense and are cheap so you can mass a lot for fodder. They are very scary if there are no destroyers present since you will lose units before they can attack back. You can roll a tech for them that improves their attack/defense by 1, which makes a big stack of subs that much scarier.

You don’t see subs being built because you don’t see people going after Japan very often. Otherwise you would/should see them a lot for people who do the math.

[Octopus]

Kyrial,

I was making reference to the battleship having or not having a destroyer escort to nullify the sub attack, not a destroyer in the attacking group.  As you pointed out, having a destroyer on the attacking side does not inferere with the sub’s sneak attacks.

Shadow and Tril,

I do understand your points of view.  I just think that one piece was made useful at the expense of making another less useful.  The net result is one unit is never purchased in play.  In this game, it is the submarine.

Octo

[Guerrilla Guy]

I purchase subs… Some Strats requiring Ranged Pacific Operations need submarines as first shot insurance against American or Japanese aggression… granted I don’t play that strat often but they come in…

GG

[Perry]

Octopus: I reasoned the same way like you about subs for quite some time (ie - I never bought them). However, subs are the most cost-effective navy-killing unit out there (provided they bring a CV for air cover). Plus they are good fodders…

Now, the only theatre of operation where you regularly actually NEED a navy-killing units is the Pac…
And in many games the Pac sees no or very little action. In those games you never see subs…

Then OCCASSIONALY I have seen Germany purchase 1 or 2 subs in the Baltic, around G3 or G4. In these cases Germany also have bought an AC in Baltic on G1, and now wishes to protect that Baltic navy from extinction from a potential allied attack…

The UK or Russia should never - and I mean NEVER - buy subs…
UK should be able to sink any potential German fleet in the Baltic w/o subs. If it is NOT able to sink a German fleet in the Baltic, it can only be due to the German spending so much IPC on fleet builds, that Germany will lose the game to the Russian anyway.  :-)

[trihero]

I don’t see anyone building battleships, destroyers, or bombers, so I don’t see why you’d pick on subs as the unused unit. Subs are the unit of choice if you’re going navy; I would be hard pressed to choose battleships or destroyers over subs. The improvement to battleships just makes the existing ones scarier and tends to help the Axis because they start with more of them.

[Guest]

DST’s are actually a COMMON build, especially by the US.  They make great screenign ships for “minor” threats to tranny fleets in the Atlantic.

Bombers… I have a Classic strategy (that I have never had a chance to try to update and use for Revised) where the US buys almost exclusively Bombers…

BB’s… truly rare.

Subs… Common to the Pacific, rare elsewhere.

[critmonster]

i played a game wher the usa player bought bb the first three rounds then set sail into the pacific and totally wrecked japans navy right outside tokyo, then started the ak to sfe flow.  i thought the guy was nuts (still do!) but those four bb’s along with the rest of the fleet was quite a sight to behold.

[Guest]

But easilly countered by just 2 builds of SUBs, and finish off with an AC and moving the land based FIG’s to the THREE Japan AC’s as the American’s arrive…

[critmonster]

that was my suggestion, but they decided to split their fleet and keep the pressure on asia.  natural consequences and part of the learning curve i suppose

[Guest]

They don;t ahve to split the fleet,. just put it in SZ60 and drop your Japan forces bound for Asia to Bury…

[critmonster]

that is what i am saying i suggested, but THEY decided to split their fleet and it cost us (i was germany) the game.  i was not saying that three straight bb builds by the usa is a great strategy, just that it was interesting and different

[triforce]

I play Japan alot, and well after the transports our up and running and asia is under control, I like to build BB’s and Destroyers, just for the psyce value.

[Flush]

Octo, we always play a sneak shot kills a battle ship (scapa flow)