Heavy Tanks - a new technology

[Kaladesh]

sorry to correct you in some points but ;-)

In 1932 Germanys “Heereswaffenamt” buyed a Carden-Loyd Tank from Vickers for test purpose. During this test it became obvious that this chassis was not capable of carrying the 20mm gun but twin mg. 5 companies designed a light tank of about 5 to 6 tons mainly for training purposes. The desing from Daimler-Benz on top of a chassis from Krupp was ordered and produced under the codename of LaS Ia (“Landwirtschaftlicher Schlepper” - “agricultural hauler”), since Germany was prohibited to produce military devices. In fact this tank was allready outdated, when the first prototype was finished in 1934.

1934 the Heereswaffenamt" called out for a heavier training tank of about 10t wich had to be able to carry the 20mm gun. 3 companies applied and MAN won and developed the LaS 100 later known as the Panzer IIa1.
It was still a prototype that was build 11 times in 1935. Due to some changes another prototype was build 25 times and was later known as Panzer IIa2.
In 1936 the design was changed again and the Panzer IIa3 was build 50 times. Still it was not ready to be produced masses and it still was handled as pre-series.
In 1936 and 1937 the design was changed again but this time a lot more was redesigned so about 100 of those Panzer IIb (2/LaS 100) were built.
The last pre-series version Panzer IIc changed the chassis and this was the basis for the Panzer IIA that went into series in 1937. At that time it’s main purpose was to fill the gap between the Panzer I and the Panzer III and IV which were not ready at that time.

Panzer III was commissioned in 1935. Out of the 4 competiting desings the one from Daimler-Benz was chosen. There were some pre-series designs (A-E) until the Panzer IIIF went into mass-production in 1939. This design carried a rather weak 37mm gun which was replaced by a 50mm gun in 1941-1942 with the Panzer IIIG.

At the same time weht the Panzer III was commissioned the Panzer IV was commissioned as well. Both tanks were supposed to support the lighter tanks Panzer I and II.
1936 Krupp presented its prototype with a 75mm gun and it was approved. 35 of the pre-series Panzer IV A were build in 1936. It was for test and training only.
The Panzer IV B (which was built 45 times in 1937) was the first Panzer IV that saw battle since it was used in the poland campaign. Still it was pre-series.
The first Panzer IV that went into series in 1938/39 was the Panzer IV C. 140 of them were built and this version had the largest allotment of Panzer IV’s in the poland campaign.
Another 45 Panzer IV D which were built late in 1939 took part in the poland campaign.
The Panzer IV was redesigned in built until the end of the war allthough in 1944 it became obvious that it was inferior to the newer allied tanks.

Since the german leadership was pleased with the designs of the Panzer III and Panzer IV the development of heavier tanks was not prosecute ver hard. So it was 1938 when the first prototype of a 30t tank was assembled and 1940 when a 35t prototype was built. Anyways this development was not prosecutet until the german tank divisions met the russian T34 tank. This tank was devastatingly superior to the german tanks at that time so it was not earlier than 1942 when the german leadership commissioned heavier tanks. 2 Companies applied and MAN won.
The were to built a tank 30t-35t in weight but due to the quick development the first prototype of the Panzer V Panther wheighed 47t.
After some pre-series tanks the Panzer V D Panther went into series in November 1942.

The Panzer VI Tiger went into series in August 1942. It carried the famous 88mm gun know from the aa-guns. With it’s thick armour it weighed 56t.
It’s purpose was to support the offensive actions against the soviet union. It had to be strong enough to fight the KV-1 (russia’s heavy tank).

However since the war changed in 1942/43 and germany more and more had to defend instead of attack, the tiger, as any other tank, off course was used in defensive roles. It did well in that ruling the battlefield.
There is a story whereas a single tiger was able to shoot more than one our without being attacked, since the enemy where affraid of this tank.
The was the rumor, that it needed 5 shermans to destroy one tiger and from thos 5 shermans only one may return home safely.
The Tiger was used very well in the normandy. But it was not a defensive tank in purpose. Every offensive action that took place involved tigers.

As you said the tiger was unreliable, it needed lots of fuel, it was heavy and thus not that movable in terrain and quite slow, it’s production quite expensive and difficult, but nevertheless… where this tank (and even moreso the King Tiger) entered the battle, it dominated the the battelfield. offensive as well as defensive.

btw. i voted for number 5 the NA ;-)

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Kaladesh:

….The Tiger was used very well in the normandy. But it was not a defensive tank in purpose. Every offensive action that took place involved tigers… where this tank (and even moreso the King Tiger) entered the battle, it dominated the the battelfield. offensive as well as defensive.

btw. i voted for number 5 the NA ;-)

Nice Kaladesh! How about No3, the opening fire variant! If one thinks about weapons development, it is quite obvious that Rockets is much more in favor to Germany than any other nation! And I do think a Heavy Tank development would be more useful for the Allies than Rockets! The original Rocket Technology in A&A Clasic is just like an advantage (compare it to one free infantry unit variant, Conscripts, BCT etc)! In the end of the war both US and Russia had heavy tanks that were as powerful as Germany’s! No nation had ballistic missiles, except Germany!

How ever I would like to know if you have play tested No5 yet and the reactions?

[Kaladesh]

opening fire in every combat round is to powerful … give 'em a few inf as cannonfodder allong and they will kill everything.

and yes … us and russia did have heavy tanks … the pershing as an example was able to fight the tiger …
nevertheless during the war (until it’s very end) there was no tank that was able to take it one on one with a tiger tank.
and rockets … sure germany was the first nation to develop and use them but they did not have that much of a effect on the outcome of the war.
However for gamebalance it is just ok to let all nations have them. germany has the best use of it since it may reach two ic’s. Allthough in the game i played we usually won’t use rockets. We spent ipc everwhere else :roll:

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Kaladesh:

opening fire in every combat round is to powerful … give 'em a few inf as cannonfodder allong and they will kill everything.

and yes … us and russia did have heavy tanks … the pershing as an example was able to fight the tiger …
nevertheless during the war (until it’s very end) there was no tank that was able to take it one on one with a tiger tank.
and rockets … sure germany was the first nation to develop and use them but they did not have that much of a effect on the outcome of the war.
However for gamebalance it is just ok to let all nations have them. germany has the best use of it since it may reach two ic’s. Allthough in the game i played we usually won’t use rockets. We spent ipc everwhere else :roll:

Well, The IS-2 was a more powerful tank in many aspects, faster as well as better protected and a bigger gun!

Germany can reach three ICs not two, and as you said no one spend ICs on Rockets! Why not replace it with something worth some 30 IPCs on average??? Like Heavy Tanks! You think the opening fire variant is to powerful! It is realistic in our opinion if one take a look on the words we been writing in the last posts! Yes, it is powerful, I agree! It is supposed to be, cause it is a development not an advantage! I would be careful to say that this variant of Heavy Tanks is too powerful,! Explain in statistics, please!
:-?

On average 2 heavy tanks will score one hit each cycle of combat. If we suppose that the defender takes infantry units as cassualties, of which three are needed on average in order to score a hit in defense. Then one could say that:

In offense; For every sixth heavy tanks you bring into combat, you will spare one cassualty of your own!

In defense; For every twelfth heavy tanks you bring into combat, you will spare one cassualty of your own!

It is of cause in a small combat the opening fire will come in to play! But I would not agree it would be too powerful! To buy some 10 tanks and develop the Heavy Tank technology cost some 80 IPCs!!! You must be realistic when you make a statement, like “too powerful”!
:wink:

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@adaptation:

You might want to slow down movement to 1,since heavy armor didnt go that fast…

You are right about that heavy tanks like the Tigers were not that fast! But just marginally slower than Panthers, but their heavy weight could also be a problem for bridges among other things! How ever these machines were much faster than infantry! Also a tank unit represents a mix of tanks, light, medium, and heavy as well as assault guns! :wink:

[Kaladesh]

hmm i will try to give some statistics… just to show what i mean.
the numbers i choose are for clarification only and to show the ratios

i assume a battle with 10 tanks and 10 infantry against 10 tanks and 10 infantry.
the normal result without heavytanks would be as follow:

Round 1:
attacker: -=- Defender
10arm -> 5 hits 10arm -> 5 hits
10inf -> 1,67 hits 10inf -> 3,33 hits

Round 2:
attacker: -=- Defender
10arm -> 5 hits 10arm -> 5 hits
1.67inf -> 0,28 hits 3,33inf -> 1,11 hits

Round 3:
attacker: -=- Defender
5,56arm -> 2,78 hits 8,05arm -> 4,025 hits

Round 4:
attacker: -=- Defender
1,54arm -> 0,77 hits 5,27arm -> 2,635 hits

result:
Defender holds approximately 4,5 tanks left. that equals 22,5 IPC

now lets have heavy tanks in attack:

Round 1:
attacker: -=- Defender
10arm 10arm
10inf 10inf

OF (opening fire):
10arm -> 5hits

NF (normal fire):
10arm -> 5 hits
10inf -> 1,67 hits 5inf -> 1,67 hits

Round 2:
attacker: -=- Defender
10arm 10arm
3,33inf 3,33inf

OF (opening fire):
10arm -> 5hits

NF (normal fire):
3,33inf -> 1,11 hits 8,33arm -> 4,165 hits

Round 3:
attacker: -=- Defender
9,16arm 7,22arm

OF (opening fire):
9,16arm -> 4,58hits

NF (normal fire):
2,64arm -> 1,32 hits

Round 4:
attacker: -=- Defender
7,84arm 2,64arm

OF (opening fire):
7,84arm -> 3,92hits

Attacker wins with approximately 7.84 tanks left which equals 39,2 ipc

so all in all not only that the attacker wins instead of the defender, only in this one battle he keeps 39,2 ipc which would be destroyed otherwise and he even inflicts 22.5 ipc more damage.
when using it in defense this would be even more powerful.
and as i said this was just one single battle.

of course the development would cost the attacker quite a bunch of ipc, but the difference in power seems a bit to high to me
off course others may have different opinions. and one wouldn’t invent heavy tanks and just use them once or twice.
and there are nations that could not afford this development to counter it in defense (for example russia.)
this development would be in favour of the germans of course. and if used right … it would empower them a lot.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

Well Kaladesh, heavy tanks cost some 30 IPCs on average and another 50 IPCs to buy 10 tanks thats some 80 IPCs! Germany starts with some, Iknow that! However it is expensive, if US develop heavy bombers they would force Germany to develop Jets! And Us also may provide russia with some lend lease fighters or develop heavy tanks in Ásia some where in China, that would be a nasty bitch to fight for Japan! Those US heavy tanks could also be used to reinforce Russia (no lend lease)! My suggestion is that you try this variant and tell me what you think. I do belive in that you will find this tech balanced! :wink:

[Erwin Rommel]

Um…whoever said that a Tiger could stop an entire armored division…I hope they aren’t serious…Because that’s a rather ludicrous thing to assert.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Erwin:

Um…whoever said that a Tiger could stop an entire armored division…I hope they aren’t serious…Because that’s a rather ludicrous thing to assert.

I have no time these days to explain in detail, but I try to give you something to think of!

If a Royal Tiger defends in a position were only a frontal attack would be able No Sherman would knock it out, not even in a close range! And if a Royal Tiger get the first tanks in a “convoy” o(armored division) on a road it would most certainly stop the convoy for a while until airsupport arrive!!! There are historical examples of this, but due to lack of time I need to come back for details on this later on.

[Kaladesh]

i will try it … promised ;-)

to erwin rommel:

tank against tank tigers where superior to most other tanks, if positioned right, they where able to destroy nearly every tank at a range, before they might be able to destroy the tiger, sometimes even at a range at which some tanks won’t even reach the tiger.

The king tiger (not royal tiger ;-) ) was even more powerful and as mr. andersson stated, there was no tank that was able to destroy it from the front (at any range) and there was no tank that may come close enough to make a hurting shot from the side (that was weakest) or the back.

On the other hand those tigers weren’t to speedy and airforce was devastating to all tanks.

more than that the allied were affraid of the tigers, sometimes even that much, that a tiger might engage a battle against an overwhelming superior force (in numbers) without even being shot at, since the allied feared it that much, that they didn’t want to engage.
the allied had the rumour that it would need 5 shermans to destroy one tiger, and that from those 5 shermans only 1 would return. (notice … tiger not king tiger)

for some time the allied where afraid that much, that they saw a tiger even in a lot of panzer IV (which on range looked a bit alike) so a lot more tigers were reported, than there actually were. there was even a command, that prohibited to report the sighting of a tiger so not to frighten the oqn troops.

[Erwin Rommel]

Maybe that’s partly true, but how fast is a King Tiger? Not fast. And it depends on the Crew and how experienced they are. A T-34 with a Veteran crew would beat a King Tiger with an Experienced or Green crew any day.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Erwin:

Maybe that’s partly true, but how fast is a King Tiger? Not fast. And it depends on the Crew and how experienced they are. A T-34 with a Veteran crew would beat a King Tiger with an Experienced or Green crew any day.

Hey Rommel, do you feel well? :-?

[Commissar_Adam]

HERE ARE SOME IDEAS!! :D

Mechanized Inf: at the begginning of movement pair up 1 inf with each tank(if you choose) the paired up inf now has a move of 2 as long as it travels the same route as the tank.

also you seemed to be having troble on a rule that make heavy tanks reasonable yet worth it, how about this;
tanks attack value is reduced to 2 but each tank rolls 2dice 8)

any replies……comments…please…

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Commissar_Adam:

HERE ARE SOME IDEAS!! :D

Mechanized Inf: at the begginning of movement pair up 1 inf with each tank(if you choose) the paired up inf now has a move of 2 as long as it travels the same route as the tank.

also you seemed to be having troble on a rule that make heavy tanks reasonable yet worth it, how about this;
tanks attack value is reduced to 2 but each tank rolls 2dice 8)

any replies……comments…please…

Well Commissar_Adam, you should take a look at my threads! Panzergrenadiers is exactly the same as your Mech. Inf.!!!

Your heavy tank variant is interesting, but too weak! A heavy tank tech should also make a bigger punch in defense as well as ofense! Even if the use of 2 dice instead of one is interesting, it is not better than the opening fire (maybe first round only)! My thoughts! Have no time to take it further.

[Atlantikwall]

Hello,

tanks were for offence in the “old” game (3 on attack, 2 on defence) and, of course, mobility. In Revised they made it 3/3. That was a great idea and changed a lot towards buying more tanks and less infantry. So the “logical” improvment would be a 4/3 Heavy-Tank, i.e. 4 on offfence (and not on defence)! The proposals of “every second or third” are too complicated imho and making a unit more expensive if you just have spend lots of money for the tech is not “logical” either imho! Nor should you pay more for new tanks (with tech) than for the old ones (without tech)!

But it like the general idea to replace “combined bombardment” with heavy tanks. Actually I proposed that earlier in the AH forum, but Larry Harries didn`t want to take over this idea when changing the LHTR into version 2!

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

Well Kaladesh, have you tried the opening fire variant yet? :D I find it balanced and use it every time!