Yeah, where is the Internet-Police when you need them???
Islaam really isn't as violent as you think
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@Deviant:Scripter:
Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa.
Wrong. These people need to help themselves.
You know, this is exactly the attitude that does not work in an ER. The number of times that you’d like to say “look - help yourself buddy. You got yourself into this mess now get yourself out” does no body any good. The guy/girl is going to leave, having been further devalued, and mess up again, but bigger. Maybe finishing the job on his wife, or herself, or just finding a snowbank to call it an end in. A few hours in a warm hospital bed, some fluids, a little TLC (maybe a stich, some valium to help with the shakes, etc) and this person will hopefully leave a little more “human” than when s/he arrived. Often that is just enough to help them get their lives turned around. Maybe it is a waste of time, but i believe that doing what is right is never a “waste of time”. It benefits at the least me as a person, even if the effects don’t last longer than 2 days for my patient - but at least that will be two days of non-hellish existance on earth.
But East Africa is not an ER you might say. Well, it is in a way. A massive ER on a massive scale with people who don’t know where to turn, where to get help, how to get out of their situation. The medical, educational, spiritual needs of these people have been undervalued by so many that they have lost sight of these values themselves. It’s amazing what someone can say or do to turn someone else’s life around. Applying a little value to these people’s lives in meaningful ways may do wonders to helping them see the values in their own lives - often lost or misplaced or trampled over by evil regimes. If we help these people - give them food, love, and a sense of their own value in the world, who know what potential they may have. Even if they have no potential and end up killing each other anyway, at least we’ll know that we’d have tried to do the right thing. -
Exept the word “spiritual”, as the words “god”, “christiany”, “good” and “evil” are not present in the text of CC, i completly agree. And Deviant; you will learn that the difference between the poor nation and the rich one will be more and more problematic, we will have to live as one people someday. I know it’s not for tomorrow, but at least we should try, and strating by stopping saying it’s all their fault, we are in part guilty of their poverty.
Also it’s hard to “help youself” when you are not eating enough.
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Right. And as Kurt Vonnegut has pointed out, it is hard to feel urgent concern for the starving masses across the sea when you just had a really nice, filling meal.
You know, if police robots were sent here by superintelligent types from across the Galaxy (see “The Day the Earth Stood Still”) these powerful, mute robots wouldn’t give a sht about anybody’s religions or fanaticisms, etc. They would issue commands to lay down arms, and issue deadlines.
Or else.
That’s it.
We would have to quickly figure out ways to live together.
The freakin robots would not take down names, numbers, or hear stories about who hit who first and whose gd said to do this or not that but only under the following circumstances, etc.When is this human species gonna grow up awreddy bruddas!?
Since the robots have yet to land, we can only look into the mirror – namely, the faces of our children!
We owe it to these little heroes to stop preaching, teaching, wishing and acting hate. It’s all about getting off our duffs and doing good.
And fast.
And keeping at it.In the meantime, we inherit from our blessed (and otherwise) ancestors this current mess. What these folks in wartorn lands need to learn is the same thing: live together. To heal. And when they cannot get there on their own, then we do have to march in, if “we” are the organizations (nations, leagues, federations, clubs, armies, tribes) who have the superior wherewithal. We have to, morally – and even for our own selfish good, long-term. We have to hose them down, send them to neutral corners, get em talking again – instead of killing.
But let’s not be simplistic about the choices. There are plenty of reasons smart people, sensitive people, can differ on what to do about Iraq, for example. And how to go about it. Military solutions are a narrow channel approach. And no seasoned military commander would ever advocate a 100-percent military solution to the kinds of problems we are talking about. By definition there are political, economic, and oh all right spiritual components to human strife. We have to play hard but play fair.
Getting back to the robots, they wouldn’t wonder about any of this. Not in the job description.
Their masters might spend a few minutes pondering how human belief structures and habits of thought ever got so funky and twisted and absurd and crusty. But these programmers of the robots would ultimately be concerned only with results. Peace & quiet among the communities of the Galaxy.
Now, there is an opening here for someone to advocate world dictatorship and a single religion or some such nonsense as the only way to keep the robots from vaporizing us – “everybody form a line, repeat after me, etc. and nobody gets hurt.” Just as there is an opening for someone to advocate world democracy and tolerance and celebration of our differences, and nonviolent conflict resolution, and healing.Hope our kids are ready, got their thang together when the robots show up.
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Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa. Somalia, Ethiopia, and Sudan are 3 reasons why terrorism exists. Dictators, Terrorists, and Drug Dealers all prosper in poverty. And this region has enough poverty to go around.
American has already poured billions of dollars in food, medical, and other supplies being sent to Africa. More often then not it ends up in the hands of the wrong people or uttlerly wasted. It is easy to say help out the “needy,” but without a clear plan and a course of action these promises are worthless. Investment is needed, but in the hands of the right people. The question is what plan will work best?
We have the power, and the responsiblity, as the #1 nation in the world, to help other nations survive and prosper.
Ha, try saying that to a capitalistic country, the cause of such extreme poverty in Africa… :-?
Right. And as Kurt Vonnegut has pointed out, it is hard to feel urgent concern for the starving masses across the sea when you just had a really nice, filling meal.
You know, if police robots were sent here by superintelligent types from across the Galaxy (see “The Day the Earth Stood Still”) these powerful, mute robots wouldn’t give a sht about anybody’s religions or fanaticisms, etc. They would issue commands to lay down arms, and issue deadlines.
Or else.
That’s it.
We would have to quickly figure out ways to live together.
The freakin robots would not take down names, numbers, or hear stories about who hit who first and whose gd said to do this or not that but only under the following circumstances, etc.When is this human species gonna grow up awreddy bruddas!?
Since the robots have yet to land, we can only look into the mirror – namely, the faces of our children!
We owe it to these little heroes to stop preaching, teaching, wishing and acting hate. It’s all about getting off our duffs and doing good.
And fast.
And keeping at it.In the meantime, we inherit from our blessed (and otherwise) ancestors this current mess. What these folks in wartorn lands need to learn is the same thing: live together. To heal. And when they cannot get there on their own, then we do have to march in, if “we” are the organizations (nations, leagues, federations, clubs, armies, tribes) who have the superior wherewithal. We have to, morally – and even for our own selfish good, long-term. We have to hose them down, send them to neutral corners, get em talking again – instead of killing.
But let’s not be simplistic about the choices. There are plenty of reasons smart people, sensitive people, can differ on what to do about Iraq, for example. And how to go about it. Military solutions are a narrow channel approach. And no seasoned military commander would ever advocate a 100-percent military solution to the kinds of problems we are talking about. By definition there are political, economic, and oh all right spiritual components to human strife. We have to play hard but play fair.
Getting back to the robots, they wouldn’t wonder about any of this. Not in the job description.
Their masters might spend a few minutes pondering how human belief structures and habits of thought ever got so funky and twisted and absurd and crusty. But these programmers of the robots would ultimately be concerned only with results. Peace & quiet among the communities of the Galaxy.
Now, there is an opening here for someone to advocate world dictatorship and a single religion or some such nonsense as the only way to keep the robots from vaporizing us – “everybody form a line, repeat after me, etc. and nobody gets hurt.” Just as there is an opening for someone to advocate world democracy and tolerance and celebration of our differences, and nonviolent conflict resolution, and healing.Hope our kids are ready, got their thang together when the robots show up.
And when the filibustering is over, what are the answers? :-?
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TG - while i agree w/ your first statement, your second one is far too simplistic. There are far too many reasons for the poverty in Africa, and to simply say “oh, its the fault of capitalistic countries” robs a lot of people of their responsibility. It also doesn’t work. It does not make it rain more “conveniently” in drought areas, it does not undo centuries of imperialism as well as the subsequent backlash occurring in such countries as Zimbabwe, Angola, Mozambique, South Africa, etc. It does not end skirmishs and wars between countries that seem to long have forgotten the reasons for continued violence (Ethiopia and Eritria) - the reason for increasing numbers of armed children. Despite the best efforts of missionaries, the Peace Corps, the UN and various other NGO’s and GO’s there is not nearly enough education about everything from agriculture to birth control. Throw in centuries of “denominationalism” - warring between various religious sects within one religion etc, and it becomes much more complicated then “well, the west is selling weapons and not pulling its weight”. Africa is relatively untouched by the US it seems (particularly relative to Latin and South America, the Middle East and South Pacific).
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There are far too many reasons for the poverty in Africa, and to simply say “oh, its the fault of capitalistic countries” robs a lot of people of their responsibility
Of course I could give a much more indepth reply, but knowing me, is there really any need for one? Were any of these countries given proper time for developement by themselves in the face of Imperialistic exploitation? How can you encourage economic investment where the economic profits are often negative? Why produce when your supply is below your variable cost? :-?
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@city:
If you honestly think that thousands of Christians don’t die annually in Muslim countries, your head is buried in the sand. … Those foreign governments hunt down and seek out ALL other religions beside Islam. Two of my family friends, Shaun and Ahmal S--------, are Christian missionaries in a country I can’t mention. They have told us in letters that if they are discovered, they will be beheaded…
Being a christian and being a missionary is two different things.
I don’t know where you get your information from, but i suspect that these thousands of christians die because they are christians.
I also supsect that all other religions are hunted down, the oil exporting countries at least have a lot of corporations from christian countries sitting there, with the ver much needed engineers etc., there are quite some tourists in these countries. I know these are no permanent residents, but it still is in conflict with what you say.
For missionaries: well, it should be well known that it is a dangerous job in islamic countries. I don’t agree with how they are treated, but i don’t see any sense in missionaric work either. -
CC, ZZZ, Yanny and Fin already wrote what i would have added here.
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We have not done enough to help East Africa. Its the whole “Give a man to fish, you feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime”.
We need to build educational, agricultural, and other Government infrastructure up in these countries to solve the problem. The reason Africa is in such bad condition is because of us, the Western Imperialists. We exploited them for our own needs, and left a bad legacy on the continent. We should at least try to turn that legacy into a positive one.
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My dad volunteered with Frontier College back in the 60’s. I think they did a lot of the infrastructure work that you’re talking about Yanny - building hospitals and schools, water supplies, etc. I don’t know where they’ve all been - i know my dad was posted to Nigeria . . . .
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And Nigeria is a lot better off because of the facilities we (and the oil companies) have built there. However, in East Africa, all we’ve done is send food. And most of the time, this food doesn’t get into the hands of the people, because there is no organized Government, and a gang of thugs with guns take the food and sell it for their own benefit.
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Exactly.
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“Fight those who do not believe in God and the Last Day”
-KoranWIthin a few decades of it’s inception, Islam fought Persia, Byzantium, Mesopotamia, and Egypt, and fought 3 civil wars.
The major clerics in citites like Medina are often calling for the destruction of Jews, Hindus, and Christians.
The Koran calls the Jews Christ Killers.
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“Fight those who do not believe in God and the Last Day”
I’ve also seen examples (though I don’t have a Koran in front of me) of quotes like “Accept Christians and Jews as your brothers, for they originate from the same idea”. Thats not a direct quote, its close, but if I can find the exact script, I’ll change it.
WIthin a few decades of it’s inception, Islam fought Persia, Byzantium, Mesopotamia, and Egypt, and fought 3 civil wars.
No, Islaam spread to Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Persia. The Turks were fighting the Byzantines for centuries, don’t know much about the 3 civil wars.
The major clerics in citites like Medina are often calling for the destruction of Jews, Hindus, and Christians.
These are just yahoos from one side. We have radical Christians from the south calling for us to round up Muslims and place them in “Interment Camps”.
The Koran calls the Jews Christ Killers.
It also calls Jews brothers. And hell, the Jews did kill Jesus. Christ is a prophet to Muslims. So are several Jewish figures.
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The problem is that religion is so inflexible. Even if the Koran said not too, shouldn’t common humanity suggest you still treat Jews and Christians (and all humans) as brothers? :-?
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@TG:
The problem is that religion is so inflexible. Even if the Koran said not too, shouldn’t common humanity suggest you still treat Jews and Christians (and all humans) as brothers? :-?
amen brother! :D
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@TG:
The problem is that religion is so inflexible. Even if the Koran said not too, shouldn’t common humanity suggest you still treat Jews and Christians (and all humans) as brothers? :-?
True, TG.
That is another of my problems with any religion… -
There comes a time even when even we have to amend our own Constitution to keep up with the times. :)
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No, Islaam spread to Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Persia. The Turks were fighting the Byzantines for centuries, don’t know much about the 3 civil wars.
Study your Middle Eastern History. Islam spread by FORCE from the areas conquered by Mohammad to the rest of Arabia, Mesopotamia, Eqypt, Cyrnecia, Eastern Anatolia, Syria, Iran, and central Asia.
The Byzantines were fighting the PERSIANS, not the Turks, at least not in the seventh century. The Turks didn’t leave central asia until the eleventh century.
These are just yahoos from one side. We have radical Christians from the south calling for us to round up Muslims and place them in “Interment Camps”.
This is the equivalent of the Pope and the council of Southern Baptists calling for the forced conversion of the Arabs. Yahoos, Yanny?
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Study your Middle Eastern History. Islam spread by FORCE from the areas conquered by Mohammad to the rest of Arabia, Mesopotamia, Eqypt, Cyrnecia, Eastern Anatolia, Syria, Iran, and central Asia.
Yes and no. It spread through force by conversion of non-jews/christians/zoroastrians. These three groups were left more or less alone. And where do you put central asia, that would be interesting to know since you yourself brought up that we speak about the seventh century, and not the eleventh…
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