You said it yourself, the point of an asian factory is to not spend much money on it. I usually commit 2 american tanks and 3 british tanks. This can hold off japan for 5 or 6 turns. During this time, the allies are landing troops into Karalia and Russia ususually commits 1 or 2 inf each turn toward the far easy.
russia, can easily hold out against germany. In the majority of my games, if the allies oust germany from Africa early (can be done in just a few turns) russia will usually make more money than germany if Japan is boggled down in Asia. a few turns later, the germans are on the defensive, and the japaneese are just begining their attacks on russia, which has the money to fight the japaneese.
Well it is not a bad strategy, but I am not a fan of it. The 5 tanks and 15 ipcs (5 men; 1 fighter; etc) used on the complex in Asia is no trivial loss of arms in Europe. It is conceivable that they could be the difference between victory and defeat or the difference between a mere narrow victory and a convincing victory in a key battle in Europe. Germany will greatly appreciate these force having been applied else where.
And 5 tanks is really not much of a force for Japan to contend with. Even when unchallenged, it takes Japan many rounds to assemble a force capable of challenging the Russian capital. And by that time there should be a formitable force of Russian infantry backed by American and British fighters ready to meet the challenge, and Germany will already be on it’s last legs defending its few remaining strongholds against a three nation invasion while in financial ruin.
By directing resources at Japan you may manage to stall Japan somewhat, but you can not do so without taking pressure off of Germany. My experience is that Germany will fall quicky against a coordinated all out mulitnational assault, and that even an uncontested Japan takes time to become a threat. Taking even a little pressure off of Germany may slow down the spread of the Japanese in Asia, but the URGENCY of Japan’s arival has also been diminished due to the loss of pressure on Germany. You slow down Japan (a little), but buy time for Germany. This to me is a mistake.
Again, you said it yourself, Germany can easily be taken down by a combined allied assault. But, if you do that it becomes a race for if Japan takes Russia before the allies take Germany.
The key to my plans is moderation. Spend 75% on germany, 25% on japan. Japan, bottlenecked at the start, will take a few turns longer to get into shape and make a serious threat upon russia. By now, Germany and Russia are in stalemate, America and Britain now are in full swing, and the Japaneese are just begining to gain momentum. Problem is, once they gain momentum, the russians, if they havent been putting enough infantry toward Japan, may also be overwhelmed.
On 2001-12-11 11:46, Yanny wrote:
Again, you said it yourself, Germany can easily be taken down by a combined allied assault. But, if you do that it becomes a race for if Japan takes Russia before the allies take Germany.The key to my plans is moderation. Spend 75% on germany, 25% on japan. Japan, bottlenecked at the start, will take a few turns longer to get into shape and make a serious threat upon russia. By now, Germany and Russia are in stalemate, America and Britain now are in full swing, and the Japaneese are just begining to gain momentum. Problem is, once they gain momentum, the russians, if they havent been putting enough infantry toward Japan, may also be overwhelmed.
Japan will not take Russia. Far from it. Germany will fall far quicker and once Germany falls it is all over for Japan.
Russia can easily fortify its capital’s defense by buying infantry and the US and UK will provide air support. Japan needs to build but it can only do so with limited quickness even if uncontested. The more pressure the Allies put on Germany the less time Japan has to build its force because once Germany falls it is all over for Japan anyway. This is the key. There is no need to stall Japan because the more pressure the Allies put on Germany the easier Germany will yield land and the quicker it will fall -hence the less time Japan has to build.
And with three countries providing support, Russia can easily defend itself against Japan. A few UK/US planes (that can also be flown to combat when on the offensive) and all Russia has to do is throw some infantry in the capital when Japan reaches its borders.
One thing that I learned early on in playing the game is that it is not wise to try and do too much. It is better to concentrate on one thing than to try and do several things half-heartedly. The reason for this is simple. The quicker I can kill my opponent the fewer casulties I will suffer in doing so. If I destroy my opponent in one round, I will only suffer as many casulties as he can inflict in a single round. If it takes me three rounds to kill that same force, I will suffer three rounds worth of casulties in the transaction. The point is, the 5 tanks and 15 IPCs plus what ever else you commit to building/defending an IC in Asia may not seem to you like a lot of fire power to be taking away from the efforts in Europe, but they can be VERY significant. Every enemy those pieces kill is one less enemy that can potentially inflict casulties on me, and the pieces they save can then go on an destroy more enemy pieces hence preventing further potential casulties to my forces…etc.
The bottom line is a quicker, easier falling of Germany. Japan may expand slightly quicker if left alone, but this quick expansion is outweighed by the hastening of the German demise and a stronger Allied force as the result of fewer casulties sustained due to more convincing Allied victories in combat.
[ This Message was edited by: xenophobe on 2001-12-11 13:07 ]
A good japaneese player can reach moscow in 6 turns, with average luck a german player can hold out for at least 10 turns against an all out assault.
On 2001-12-11 13:19, Yanny wrote:
A good japaneese player can reach moscow in 6 turns, with average luck a german player can hold out for at least 10 turns against an all out assault.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. 6 rounds seems about right for Japan to build a strong force on Moscow’s doorstep, but not necessarily strong enough to take it. With 4-6 Allied fighters (easily afforded by UK/US within 6 rounds) in the Russian capital Russia only has to contribute a solid base of infantry to defend itself against Japan.
I think you are off on the German estiamte. If the Allies avoid spreading themselves thin in the Germany conflict and systematically move onto German soil one step at a time as a single significant force, Germany will never hold out for 10 rounds against the pressure of a multi-national force. They could only hold out that long if the US or UK manage to squander their pieces by engaging in minor and insignificant periferral battles.
Anyway, as I said, I think we will have to agree to disagree here.
germany receives about 25 IPC’s by only holding the european mainland. If this is all spend on infantry then it will take about 10 turns to defeat them. At that time Japan not only has reached Moscow but is also capturing the whole of africa as well and maybe alaska/canada/western us. The western allies will get seriously weakened by this and a major attack on germany will be made impossible.
On 2001-12-11 13:58, greensleeves wrote:
germany receives about 25 IPC’s by only holding the european mainland. If this is all spend on infantry then it will take about 10 turns to defeat them. At that time Japan not only has reached Moscow but is also capturing the whole of africa as well and maybe alaska/canada/western us. The western allies will get seriously weakened by this and a major attack on germany will be made impossible.
Perhaps against a very weak US and UK.
only 10 turns holding out would be a very weak germany. Any good german player can get at least 9 infantry to africa, while holding eastern europe, before the allies can destroy the german’s transports.
9 infantry on africa + airforce is good to hold the allies off for quite some time.
Edit - let me add that axis are at a disadvantage, so you might wanna consider in all this a bid. but, as I said ontop, a good german player can survive till Japan can bring aid. This can include a south africa or brazillian factory, a switzerland factory (surprizingly potent) and a mainland invasion of russia. At the end of long games, it is the Japaneese most often that I see contesting africa.
[ This Message was edited by: Yanny on 2001-12-11 17:36 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Yanny on 2001-12-11 17:40 ]
On 2001-12-11 17:35, Yanny wrote:
only 10 turns holding out would be a very weak germany. Any good german player can get at least 9 infantry to africa, while holding eastern europe, before the allies can destroy the german’s transports.
You obviously are not talking about facing an Allied force committed to pressuring Germany. There is no way Germany can afford to squander 9 infantry into Africa or to throw money into an IC in Switzerland or any of this if the Allies are played properly. Perhaps if the Allies are foolish enough to field a useless IC in Asia or commit valuable resources towards stalling Japan in the East -but certainly not against an all out Allied assault.
With an all out Allied assault on Germany, the best Germany can hope to do is keep retaking the Russian Northern complex in order to hold off a full Allied fortification of the crutial territory. But as soon as Germany rolls bad and fails to retake the Russian IC the territory becomes fortified with far too many US/UK fighters and will never get a second chance at it. And that force will soon be moving onto German soil and has the backing of three countries to defend it, so good luck to Germany with trying to retake it.
And once Germany loses its airforce or UK claims its sea space Germany is in serious trouble because the UK will be right on top of it with ground troops in addition to its many fighters -this changes its orientation from a primarily defensive force to a force also capable of serious offensive action.
Unless I am mistaking something, but I seriously doubt it. We are talking the original game without optional rules, aren’t we? Perhaps we can play it out some time. I would play the Allies and apply my strategy and you could show me how Germany would defend against it. I have never played on-line before though.
[ This Message was edited by: xenophobe on 2001-12-12 12:44 ]
I am talking with using either Russia Restricted or a bid.
And Germany can easily get an addition 8 (+ 2 and 1 tank already there) infantry to africa. All you need to do is buy 1 transport your first turn and move any surviving subs (usually just the formly bay of biscay sub) to take hits. funneling 4 infantry per turn to africa.
On 2001-12-12 13:02, Yanny wrote:
I am talking with using either Russia Restricted or a bid.And Germany can easily get an addition 8 (+ 2 and 1 tank already there) infantry to africa. All you need to do is buy 1 transport your first turn and move any surviving subs (usually just the formly bay of biscay sub) to take hits. funneling 4 infantry per turn to africa.
Well I might be interested in playing it out sometime with Russia restricted if you were interested.
I guess not.
I just played a game on the zone again. I played all allies and took germany down in only 4 turns =P. He was focusing on taking my IC in SA so his european defence was a bit weak. Soo on turn 3 i invaded France with 4 infantry, 1 tank, 1 fighter and a bomber with US and destroyed 2 INF, 2 tanks and 2 fighters there. I had no units left to take the territory but i saved my fighter and bomber. Then on Russia’s turn (turn 4) i invaded eastern europe and took down all his armor units and a fighter as well. Which left him with 3 INF in germany and 4 in Italy. Sooo he resigned :smile:
The Japanese player was taking south asia in the meantime but couldnt hurt me as well. He bought an industrial on turn 1 :wink:
If Germany weakens European defense too much to concentrate on Africa too long -they’ll lose. Japan needed to hit Russia as well as South-Asia, the IC didn’t necessarily doom them. Sounds like you played them right.
well it did for a part, it slowed his advance and building it in indo-china didnt hurt russia. I was able to get 30 IPC’s production for Russia and thereby powerful enough to defend all my lands while the americans and british were able to invade europe.
Xeno, I’d love to play you on the zone, but for some reason I can’t launch any games on the zone lately. I even tried making a new zone name and that didnt work, I repatched and I recopied that directx file and nothing works. I may just reinstall the game and the zone and the patch. But, if I get it back up I’d love to play you.
And in response to the africa comment, if the germans can secure africa, the 40 or so IPC investment in conquering it is made up in a few turns.
Germany securing Africa is great unless at the expense of European security. What good is it to visit the pyramids if your drinking vodka or tea in Berlin?
I never said overcommit. I spend max 12$ on africa a turn.
For how many turns? Can you force a stalemate with Russia and hold off US/Britian amphibious attacks as well?
