The Dutch Diaspora, alternate AAG1940 playable faction

[De Gaulle]

So Pvt.Ryan, the Pacific Dutch, would they have buying power? Im thinking they should, but this might just bring more unbalance. But they have to like buy a factory because they dont start out with one or something. Maybe give them Belgian Congo so thir IPC count is 12 and they can buy a minor IC turn 1. I say Congo because the territory Hollamd-Belgium consists of the Dutch and Belgians and Dutch peices would represent the Belgians too. I dont know. And they could possibly have national objectives.

[Pvt.Ryan]

Ugh sorry never posted this. Been busy at in school. Alrighty the Dutch are basically a minor power. They have a small army and navy and airforce. The setup does include a minor IC on Java. The thing about the Dutch is is that they should in theory weaken the UK in the pacific. Would you rather have one nation or have those IPCs being spent by just one power? I mean I think (excluding NOs) my job would be easier if the Allies all shared movement, buying, and combat.

[knp7765]

This looks very interesting.  Granted, it may be a stretch historically, but it’s cool to add another faction and I love playing alternate reality type scenarios.  That said, I have a few questions/comments of my own:
1-I understand the Italian over-running of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece are meant as balancing factors rather than historical events.  What I don’t understand is why the Italians are so offended by Dutch actions.  In this scenario, you seem to make the Italians really have an axe to grind against the Dutch Diaspora, even more so than against the British it seems.  Why is that?
2-About the DEI.  I’m not so sure they should be considered “Allied Neutrals” and given over to other Allied powers.  Granted, your NO about the transfer of power does at least give 2 ipcs per territory for a total of 8 ipcs (Sumatra, Java, Celebes & Dutch New Guinea), still the DEI is a large chunk of the Dutch income.  I guess between the NO and if they manage to take over the rest of South America, that will make up for the territory loss of the DEI income, it just seems like too large a percentage of the Dutch income is based on NOs as opposed to actual territory.  Then again, since you mentioned not wanting to add territorial ipcs, I guess you did good with what you had to work with.
3-You mentioned with the formation of the Dutch Diaspora, Argentina, Chile and Venezuela become Pro-Axis Neutrals.  I take it they are treated the same as Finland and Iraq?  If Germany, Italy or Japan managed to get some troops over there, they could land and absorb those countries, plus gain extra infantry, on their NCM?
4-I have a few questions about your new National Objectives:
  A - UNITED STATES - The US turns over the West Indies to Dutch Diaspora, subtracting 1 ipc from the US total (US gets 51 ipcs now).  One of the US wartime NOs is for US control of Mexico, Southeast Mexico, Central America and West Indies.  In your scenario, should this read “Allied” control now?
  B - JAPAN - The original Japanese NO for the DEI was 5 ipcs per turn for control of ALL the DEI (Sumatra, Java, Celebes and BORNEO).  Your new Japanese NO states that they only have to control TWO of the former Dutch territories in the East.  Since Borneo belongs to UK/India, does that simply drop Borneo from this NO?  Also, does this NO include Dutch New Guinea?

That’s all the questions I can think of now.  I pretty much understand the rest.  One more thing, about the game pieces used.  Historical Board Gaming has Dutch pieces available in their Painted Armies section.  I think they are orange.  They even have Dutch roundels to use for control markers.  That might work better than using Russian pieces, plus it would add more color to the board.

[eroxors]

Thanks for the interest. We were actually able to play a game with this rule so I have answers to all your questions.

1. The Dutch vs. Italy language is intended to provide a “storyline” element to the Dutch vs. Italian situation that presents itself on the board and to explain the equal granting of units and territories to both nations.

2. The problem here is that the Dutch have no way to build units in the Pacific, so I didn’t think it was appropriate to siphon IPCs from the Pacific. I think that I will change this in a future revision to provide facilities in the DEI.

3. You are correct, they can be taken over by any Axis power. In the game we played, both Italy and Germany contemplated invading Venezuela after a failed Dutch invasion.

4. A) Yes, we encountered this and treated it as “allied control.” B) This is wrong, it should read “The Japanese must control two of the following territories: Borneo, Java, Sumatra, Celebs and Dutch New Guinea”

Thanks for the tip about the Dutch units, I’ll probably order some. Also, stay tuned for version 2 of the Dutch rules, they were pretty much a non-issue in the game I played and Italy was a beast with 60 some IPCs by round 4. Part of this was weak rolling, but there are some balance changes that are needed.

[knp7765]

Thanks for the answers.  I was wondering about the Italy changes, specifically all the extra manpower and units they get.  I understand that you were trying to keep things balanced (eg. adding a new Allied power = giving Axis a little more stuff), but I also wondered if that would make Italy too dang strong for starting.  Even though the extra stuff Italy got was due to the Dutch addition, it would be the British in the Med and Africa, and perhaps Turkey as well, that would suffer.
Japan is certainly getting a boost.  Only having to control 2 of those territories will make it much easier for Japan to get that NO.  Getting all 4 of the DEI can be really hard, especially with ANZAC and India nipping at your heels.

I will keep checking back whenever I’m on the forum to see your progress on this.  You’re welcome about the tip on HBG.  It looks like I may have to go order some of his Dutch as well.

[MacNaughton]

I tried this out and liked it a lot. Italy having a boost to put them in a better starting position was nice. And it was also nice to have another ally making landings in Europe/Africa, as it seems with my games that UK always falls quickly.

One significant change I tried was making the Dutch connected to France, the same way London and Calcutta are connected– separate economies, but everything else being united. I mostly did this to allow the use of blue pieces for the Dutch. But I liked the result of French African pieces being reinforced by Dutch pieces and being able to move together.

[eroxors]

What were the game results? When did the Dutch receive their NOs (what was their final income)? Was there any discernible difference in the Pacific?

Thanks for trying it out.

[MacNaughton]

@eroxors:

What were the game results? When did the Dutch receive their NOs (what was their final income)? Was there any discernible difference in the Pacific?

Thanks for trying it out.

They got the South American NO by the second turn. They kept a Dutch ship in the Pacific the whole game by moving a sub to SZ 52. It took quite some time for ANZAC or India to take control of the DEI as Japan was gunning very fast for Calcutta and all effort had to go toward keeping the capital.
Their highest income was 26 including NOs.
It did not make a difference in the Pacific. This is because the sub fled in order to keep the NO, and Japan never tried for the DEI, and when ANZAC never built enough transports to make use of the newly acquired infantry from the DEI.

Here’s were the Dutch were helpful. They built a ragtag navy of around 5 subs, 4 destroyers and 1 aircraft carrier. They destroyed the Italian fleet in SZ 92 allowing the Americans to land straight into Rome.
What did not work so well for the Dutch was transporting infantry and artillery into French West Africa. It took too long for those units to walk to Egypt to find some Italians to fight.

[Weezer 410]

I think it is an interesting point to add a dutch faction, but a little unneccesary as the game is complicated as it is. We could also see a bulgarian faction, finnish faction, Romanian faction (which I would actually like to see), belgian faction, polish faction, Czech faction…etc. but seeing as the only countries of these that had a colonial presence at the time of the war were the belgians and dutch perhaps we could incoporate the two into one faction. I think the idea of giving them brazil is a little too far fetched. I think the territories owned by the belgian/dutch should be:

1. Angola
2. West Indies
3. Dutch east indies
4. Belgian congo
5. Suriname
6. Sri Lanka (on lease by the british)

delpoyments would be
Angola: 1 infantry
West Indies: 1 infantry, 1 airbase
Dutch east indies: 1 submarine off of Java, naval base on java
Belgain Congo: 2 infantry
Sri Lanka: 1 Destroyer, 1 infantry, 1 naval base
1 transport on a sz bordering London

Special rules:
the dutch forces can only deploy units on India or London, their income will be half of the value of the territories they control (7 ipc’s at the beginning)

National objectives:
The dutch will gain 2 ipc’s for every territory of the dutch east indies that the allies liberate or commandeer.
the Japaneses lose 2 ipc’s per turn every turn that their is a dutch sub within 4 spaces of tokyo representing admiral Helfrich    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Emil_Lambert_Helfrich

Germany: takes control of Bulgaria and yugoslavia during setup 1infantry on yugo, 2 on bulg.
italy: takes control of greece and places two infantry there during setup and adds one infantry to their forces in ethiopia (anti-dutch congans)
Japan: add 1 DD and TT to SZ 6, National objective +3 ipc’s for no dutch ships in the pacific (east of malaya, west of new zealand)  (seazones that include areas west of malaya/east of NZ are not included)

I think this is a better  balance, I firmly believe that the dutch should not have control of Brazil or any industrial complexes, I think Sri Lanka is a more suitalbe addition then brazil because the Dutch had a small colony there and the British may have accepted a deal where they leased it to the dutch in place of the british taking ownership of the east indies.

[12doze12]

@Weezer:

I think it is an interesting point to add a dutch faction, but a little unneccesary as the game is complicated as it is. We could also see a bulgarian faction, finnish faction, Romanian faction (which I would actually like to see), belgian faction, polish faction, Czech faction…etc. but seeing as the only countries of these that had a colonial presence at the time of the war were the belgians and dutch perhaps we could incoporate the two into one faction. I think the idea of giving them brazil is a little too far fetched. I think the territories owned by the belgian/dutch should be:

1. Angola
2. West Indies
3. Dutch east indies
4. Belgian congo
5. Suriname
6. Sri Lanka (on lease by the british)

delpoyments would be
Angola: 1 infantry
West Indies: 1 infantry, 1 airbase
Dutch east indies: 1 submarine off of Java, naval base on java
Belgain Congo: 2 infantry
Sri Lanka: 1 Destroyer, 1 infantry, 1 naval base
1 transport on a sz bordering London

Special rules:
the dutch forces can only deploy units on India or London, their income will be half of the value of the territories they control (7 ipc’s at the beginning)

National objectives:
The dutch will gain 2 ipc’s for every territory of the dutch east indies that the allies liberate or commandeer.
the Japaneses lose 2 ipc’s per turn every turn that their is a dutch sub within 4 spaces of tokyo representing admiral Helfrich    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Emil_Lambert_Helfrich

Germany: takes control of Bulgaria and yugoslavia during setup 1infantry on yugo, 2 on bulg.
italy: takes control of greece and places two infantry there during setup and adds one infantry to their forces in ethiopia (anti-dutch congans)
Japan: add 1 DD and TT to SZ 6, National objective +3 ipc’s for no dutch ships in the pacific (east of malaya, west of new zealand)  (seazones that include areas west of malaya/east of NZ are not included)

I think this is a better  balance, I firmly believe that the dutch should not have control of Brazil or any industrial complexes, I think Sri Lanka is a more suitalbe addition then brazil because the Dutch had a small colony there and the British may have accepted a deal where they leased it to the dutch in place of the british taking ownership of the east indies.

Angola was part of he Portuguese nation

[Bischoffshof]

I think you should make the Dutch as originally stated but in addition create a Spanish/Portuguese axis power bent on recovering its possessions in the new world. Making their NO’s clash with the Dutch’s and thus you can finally see some action in the southern Atlantic and on South America.

[Space Static]

I played a game of A&A 1940 Global with these rules, it worked out well. Axis won though so it feels like the axis were still even with the introduction of the Dutch. The only notable thing the Dutch were able to do was after their slow military build up they were able to invade south west Africa and snatched a ton of Italian territories that they took from the British and French. Their inclusion helps the Americans and British invade Africa a lot easier due to the Italians having to send troops to southern Africa to try to reclaim their lost territories.

[Jesse144]

This post is deleted!

[Jesse144]

@eroxors This is exactly what I was looking for, regarding how to include Holland as a Power with Gov’t in Exile, without flawing the overall game. Your comprehensive rationales are superb. Thanks! Any new suggestions since these posts? Also, what about using HBG’s “Wrong Color” turquoise pieces?

[eroxors]

@jesse144 Glad you liked it! I don’t have any updates and I haven’t played in a while, if I do I will update the google doc here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dpoHb1QMlSHM_DOtglr4-ILKQ6wmxxLAHyGNCAXiA8/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks!

[Jesse144]

@eroxors

Thanks!!

I’m interested in your views on another Dutch idea… what I call “Double Dutch” and posted on the G40 forum as a new topic –

"Since G40 has Dutch marker emblems printed on the board, I’ve become interested in finding a way to include them in the game without simply forcing them in and creating more meaningless clutter in the process.

@eroxors has some nice posts and other members give thoughtful discussion here [The Dutch Diaspora, alternate AAG1940 playable faction]

After some admittedly light surface research (reading a few wikipedia sites about Suriname and the historical Dutch Gov’t in Exile at London), I can envision a scenario where the Dutch begin as an Allied power in Exile, but then SWITCH to Axis. What–how?

• Basically, the Dutch were cooperative with Germany prior to a betrayal by Nazi Germany. Then, while a Gov’t in Exile at London, the Dutch leaders were made essentially impotent by the Queen–Churchill considered her “the only man in the Dutch government.”

• Suddenly, the Nazis are decapitated as the controlling Party of Germany when Hitler is successfully assassinated at the hand of his own inner-circle (the assassination is not scripted at a particular point in the game, but rather is a chance event, based on a recurring die roll–no pun intended). The National Socialist Party fractures in splinters, and is displaced when contemporary-minded civilian and military entities reorganize in unity, under the headship of fictional Dietrich Helm, who is swiftly installed as the new German National Unity Party Leader. Hammer Geil becomes Commander of German armed forces, and the Generals are happy to finally have a military man heading their operations. (As an aside, in order to stomach the fun of playing Germany, which is part of my ethnic heritage, I’ve imagined a different German Leadership during the war. This is a personal side-benefit of this optional faction.)

• In the new ruling Party’s immediate attempt to gain another European ally, reparations (in terms of restored Holland-Belgium territorial sovereignty, with a defense pact, plus an additional pledge of a specified number of German IPCs and units) are offered to the Dutch leadership now embittered by the mothering of the British Queen–and The Dutch become a WESTERN Axis Power!

• To safeguard the now-Axis government and in a stroke of geopolitical genius, Suriname is established as the Dutch Wartime Capital/Headquarters. Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Venezuela turn Pro-Axis. An uprising occurs in the West Indies, which possibly falls to Dutch control (more on that later).

  • (Depending on balancing factors, a small number of Dutch units are placed in Suriname and Belgium-Holland. To protect Suriname from immediate American invasion, some National Objective or consequence may need to be invoked. One idea to promote a feasible Double-Dutch entry could be that additional international neutrals with historical ties to The Low Countries and even Spain or Portugal would all turn Pro-Axis if the Allies invade the South American State. The Monroe Doctrine could require such an invasion? Another hybrid idea is given in greater detail below.)

**

• In the Pacific, however, the Western-Axis Dutch become NEUTRAL with the Japanese, but can become AT WAR with Japan–only if provoked by an attack. If the Japanese already occupy originally-Dutch territories, a resolution based on an overall alignment with the Axis is reached. Those details could include the Dutch “buying back” the IPC value of each Japanese-controlled territory originally belonging to the Dutch, all at once or incrementally, with the political power of the European Axis Powers being sufficient to broker a deal with the Japanese. Occupying Japanese units would exit the Dutch East Indies as soon as possible, without combat occurring. Japan would receive one-time per territory the IPC value of each “liberated” Dutch East Indies territory as each is converted.

• Once a W-Axis, Dutch units are considered hostile to the Allies, even in the Pacific Theatre. The Dutch will NEVER become an ally of Japan, although their mutual Pacific enemies may lend to an uncoordinated passive cooperation by remaining Neutral with one another. Therefore, W-Axis Dutch units may only share space with Germany and Italy.

Some additional “Double Dutch” considerations:

• The assassination roll (and if a 1D6 is successful at “6”, the implications of political realignment) takes place at the beginning of Germany’s turns, before any other purchases/repairs, etc.

• W-Axis Dutch could be managed either as a separate Power, or as a German “One Power, Two Economies”

-or-

• W-Axis Dutch could have the option to re-establish its homeland as their capital in Europe if conditions are considered secure. Suriname could later be established as a South American foothold for the Axis to sway the continent’s standing armies to Pro-Axis.

-and/or-

• If newly W-Axis Dutch choose Suriname as a Wartime Capital, Germany cannot negotiate a Dutch Axis-switch unless the following reparation terms are met:

  • Germany must immediately send at least 2 defensive air units (not strategic bombers) to Suriname. These defensive air units (but not any additional) must remain as defenders for the territory and adjacent sea zone for as long as Berlin stands.

  • Germany transfers 30 IPC to The Dutch for purchasing an air base, minor IC, and an Infantry in Suriname, which now being aligned with nearby Pro-Axis Venezuela and Brazil, receives logistical support for the Territorial IPC Requirements of the minor IC being ABLE TO MOBILIZE THIS TURN.

• If/once Suriname is established as Wartime Capital, neighboring British and French Guiana fall to W-Axis Dutch via German political muscle for a coup-d’etat in each, and are annexed. (Any Allied Forces present in either would be eliminated/become POWs if such a house rule for POWs exists.)

• Each territory, in addition to Suriname, immediately produce 1 Dutch Infantry. Unless liberated, all 3 territories are considered a single “Suriname” territory worth 2 IPC, as if they were originally worth 2/3 of an IPC apiece. (Use Dutch markers, if available. Also, use either German units or a new color such as turquoise or orange units such as those HBG supplies.)

• The uprising in the West Indies generates (2) Dutch Infantry. Would need resolution process if American forces are present. Consider any occupying American forces in the West Indies to be required to conduct combat with W-Axis Dutch, but to simulate the political upheaval and national uprising, allow the 2 Dutch Infantry a unique “Surprise Strike” each attacking at 2 (like submarines).

• Certain issues with mid-game/late-game ANZAC/British troops occupying/controlling originally-Dutch territories would need a resolution process

• W-Axis Dutch, if a separate Power, would play after Germany

There would be games where the 1D6 roll would happen in Turn 1, other games where it didn’t occur at all, and anywhere in-between. The political instability may bring a bittersweet tension to the game. Allied players who overcompensate for a potential “Double Dutch” Power may waste valuable time and resources for an event which never occurs. The unpredictability may add a realistic new psychological dynamic to the game, if the final design isn’t too convoluted, or stifling to the game, or significantly unbalanced.

Where are the historical/practical problems/holes here? Fire away!"