British Counter to Sea Lion?

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[special forces]

mmm…

the problem as UK is that you don’t know which turn Germany will attack, and UK isn’t that rich, especially if Italy goes nibbling IPC’s away in Africa and the Middle-East.

Sending a fighter away from UK is also inviting Germany abit to go for their Sea-Lion.
Gathering the fleet in SZ109is not bad, i think, but it will depend on how many subs Germany has left after his first turn (and how many planes it can bring to SZ109. If the UK fleet is strong enough to withstand a german sub + air force attack (or lose it but with a good possibility to bring down some air force), i wouldn’t buy extra ships (perhaps 1 fodder sub) and leave all fighters on land. Buying land troops.
I think germany won’t be too keen on sending surface fleet all around England (bad position for them, as they can be blocked, have no naval base and drop any immediate threat on Russia).

[calvinhobbesliker]

If you just build fleet, UK is defended with 2 inf and, at best, 4 planes. Germany, even if it didn’t build a transport G1, attacks with inf, tank, and 8 planes.

[jim010]

Thanks for the play by play.  That is great!

I’ll have to run the numbers, but I suspect that I would not buy as many TTs on G2 and just hit the fleet with the German fleet and land with some ground units.

I’ll run the numbers later.

Cheers

[rocknroll]

you are welcome!

and yes: it is a huge problem that all german aircraft and fleet can reach that british one. but if you calculate the odds a bit (knowing that dice always f**k around with odds), anyone can easily peceive that to destroy this very british fleet germany has to attack with all aircraft and subs or with some planes and some navy or all navy etc.
the latter would mean that any new built german transport is without any protection.
it is likely that the british fleet gets destroyed but not flawless!

if you choose to buy two carriers you can put all planes on them adding a cruiser and two destroyers to join this fleet. but in UK home territory there are only three infantry and a tank to find.

and it is correct, too, to mention that all depends on german buys. if germany buys one or two transports in G1 its getting harder for the british to choose whether to buy. but i would leave the taranto raid anyway aside. gathering that fleet equals more pressure for germany helping russia this way far better than keeping italy small. therefor i would go as usa directly to the med with all means.

well… the gambling goes on!

[calvinhobbesliker]

Or Germany can just invade the UK with 2 ground units and 8 planes on G2

[special forces]

@rock`n:

you are welcome!

and yes: it is a huge problem that all german aircraft and fleet can reach that british one. but if you calculate the odds a bit (knowing that dice always f**k around with odds), anyone can easily peceive that to destroy this very british fleet germany has to attack with all aircraft and subs or with some planes and some navy or all navy etc.
the latter would mean that any new built german transport is without any protection.
it is likely that the british fleet gets destroyed but not flawless!

if you choose to buy two carriers you can put all planes on them adding a cruiser and two destroyers to join this fleet. but in UK home territory there are only three infantry and a tank to find.

well… the gambling goes on!

You really can’t afford to get those fighters out of there; together with an all INF buy they are the ones that will have to keep the germans out. Germany can’t both sink the UK fleet and invade UK (unless it didnot lose a single sub in the 1st round).
Losing your fleet is 1 thing, losing UK is something else.

[jim010]

Looking at it closer, you are inviting me to hit G2 with 2 - 3 TTs (depending on my opening) and all my planes and 2 amphibs vs 3 inf, 1 tank and 4 planes.

With this, I would hit for for sure with 95% odds.  I also wouldn’t need to buy the TTs on G3.

Placing the navy in sz110 wouldn’t help, as I can go around.

[rocknroll]

yeah,

but this would mean as the german player that you exactly know what the british is going to do! can you read other’s mind? :D

the point is: germany goes first! if germany decides to buy two or three transports in round one, this counter is a dead letter, of course. well, if not…? in this particular game which i took pics from, germany only invested in fleet and one artillery. that is why uk bought fleet, too.

maybe i should ask: what would anyone buy in G1? :? :-D

rock on :mrgreen:

[jim010]

I would buy what I always buy, 1 CV and 1 or 2 TTs.  That’s 2 - 3 TTs total.  I would open as I always do - by hitting the UK fleet in sz111, 112, 110, 109.  My buys go in sz112, along with the TT that I start with.

[rocknroll]

okay.

how many subs normally survive then? how many planes germany looses? (i am asking sake of what to buy for UK on turn one)

[jim010]

0 - 2 subs can survive, and typically all planes.

[rocknroll]

so, your plan is to pull off a sealion-attack on G2?

if not, than maybe the british fleet can be reinforced by those ships from the mediterranian etc. as jamesaleman described it here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=20902.0

greetings

[jim010]

No, I do G3, as the odds for success are much much greater.

[rocknroll]

in this case (you bought minimum two transports in G2), i would buy two fighters and three infantry as UK. the carrier with tactical bomber and the destroyer in seazone 91 would not move keeping them safe from the luftwaffe and move the “canadian fleet” to seazone 109 taking a tank and an infantry to uk. the cruiser in the mediterranian should go to support the french, the transport leaves through the suez.

this means, that at the and uf UK’s turn you would find five infantry, a tank and five fighters in the uk. and those five fighters can attack together with two destroyers (or only one if the one in seazone 109 gets destroyed), and the carrier the small german fleet consisting of a carrier fully loaded, one battleship and a cruiser sake of movement bonuses of the naval base in gibraltar and the uk. IF there is a only-transport-buy in G2 for germany etc. …

only italy can screw this whole maneuver leaving egypt out of anything for almost two rounds, because the italian troops in alexandria/egypt cannot be reinforced sooner.

is this a recognizeable counter now? i hope so… :evil: :-D

[robbie358]

I think that the Sea Lion thing is there to represent the threat so that the UK doesn’t go on offense right away.
If you don’t play it conservative… if you don’t buy all infantry the first turn… if you go all in on the Italian fleet… you’re gonna lose the UK.

For example… if you’re building naval units and bringing up the carrier from Gibraltar… you’re not attacking the Italian fleet.  If you’re buying all infantry… you’re not threatening Africa or Norway at all.

My point is the Germany doesn’t have to decide if it’s going Sea Lion or Barbarossa until it’s Turn 2 Purchase Units phase.  That means that either way, turn 1 the UK has got to play it safe.