Islaam really isn't as violent as you think


  • Catholics are the most evenly split politically, of any religion in America. (In 2000 49% voted for Gore, 47% voted for Bush) The Jews vote left, evangelical christians vote right.

    The “center” in America is rightish, Democrat are’nt leftish. And i’m surprised Catholic vote so much for Gore. In Germany the Catholic were very conservative, and even if i think the Democrat are conservative I thought American catholic were more encline to vote for Bush.


  • @yourbuttocks:

    @F_alk:

    conversion of non-jews/christians/zoroastrians.

    Who was not one of these three?

    He’s right. In medieval times, you were either Jewish, Christian or Muslim and in the Christian world, it was not good to be a Muslim (who were almost not there) nor a Jew. In the Muslim world, it was not good to be a Jew or Christian, with the small exception of Spanish Jewry, but even the prominent Jews there did not see their lives as prosperous.


  • Mr. CC, regarding your statement about “crimes of opportuniity, not of religion,” I pretty much agree this is not about the faith of Christianity. But it is about the structure of the Catholic institution, which sequesters volunteer celibates, both nuns and priests, with young and naive members of the same sex. And of course the crimes extend beyond same-sex predation.

    I have always thought that Protestant ministers at least have the opportunity to lead by example, in terms of marrying and raising a traditional family. Priests in the Catholic zone, however, accept a more or less extreme “family” structure… and then proceed to dispense wisdom on matters of relationships the type of which they themselves are banned from experiencing first-hand. I have encountered priests who are absolutely first rate in doing so, and in all other repects are true leaders and spiritual guides, but it seems to me they have risen above the built-in flaws of the structure.

    Not that I am a student of the Church, but the gist I have picked up is that many members of the church would agree that the current crisis stems in some large part from that structure, and there are organized calls for a new approach to the rules of the priesthood.


  • Then how do you explain the fact that rates of pedophilia are higher among married men than unmarried men?

    How do you explain the high rates among protestant ministers? day care workers? teacher’s?

    People who have an axe to grind with the church should come out and be honest, insteading misleading by using an inapplicable pretext.


  • The problem for me is not that the Priests abused children, they eventually got their punishment, but how the church handled it.

    1. They tried to cover it up. If they were the Anti-Sinner, pure people they claim to be, they’d of told the police right away.

    2. South Park episode. Classic.

    3. Took the Pope to say “Molest a child, and your out”, and some Catholics disagreed with that. It should be, “Molest a child, and you go to jail”, but sadly, Priests are not being convicted, or even charged, or at least its not making the news.

    4. Friggin South Park episode.


  • It is true Yanny that there were some officials who acted disgracefully. Such as Cardinal Law (who resigned).

    However, ZimZaxZero said that the church’s structure caused the problem. What I was saying is that it failed to fully prevent it. Big difference.


  • @yourbuttocks:

    Then how do you explain the fact that rates of pedophilia are higher among married men than unmarried men?

    How do you explain the high rates among protestant ministers? day care workers? teacher’s?

    People who have an axe to grind with the church should come out and be honest, insteading misleading by using an inapplicable pretext.

    Well, I won’t pretend I can explain any of this, seeing as how I am not familiar with how any of those data compare with what’s been stewing in the U.S. Catholic Church. Bringing these things into daylight frequently seems to have at least a touch of “witchhunt” – for example the daycare scandals of a decade ago.
    I will agree with the Yannster: the Church created a system or environment of coverup. This is the huge “sin” as far as Cardinal Law and his ilk go.

    As regards your point about an ax(e) to grind, well… maybe see my earlier comments in this thread: I am wondering out loud why, at a time when an established, powerful religious institution – Islam – is being scrutinized publicly in the town square on matters of life, death, liberty, etc., we turn to see what’s up with this other established, powerful religious institution – Catholicism – and find that here in the US it is racked with a power-sapping, influence-draining, effectiveness-eroding scandal of a sordid nature, of its own making.

    The irony in it to me, is that some of the more politically active ((and I’m not saying these are spiritual leaders, or even leaders of the Church)) Catholics in the US are among those most vociferous in calling for a “crusade” against a demonized external threat to our civilization. It’s the IRONY that gets me going, not necessarily an ax to grind against this specific religious institution.

    I will “come out and be honest” that the Catholic Church is the one religious institution with which I am most familiar. I don’t think that makes me allergic to its misdeeds, however. I am equally amused, angered, frustrated, etc. by the misanthropy demonstrated from time to time by persons of influence within ALL other big organized religious powerhouses – and almost as amused, angered and astonished by the malevolence of some very very small religious groupings, from time to time. ON THE OTHER HAND, there is almost universally some grain of good in each and every one of these cults or sects or houses or temples of worship. Tis an ambivalent world we inhabit, and also tis a not-yet-mature species, or people, we be.

    Peace to guys & gals of good will…


  • Zero, the thing is that most cases of pedophilia that have ever come up have been handled well. even if there was never enough proof to convict these Priests, they are ussually not allowed to actively minister.

    It is true that in some cases individual leaders acted shamefully.

    For example, how many of these cases involved a priest ordained in the last 20 years, since safeguards were put in place to better screen?

    In the U.S. there was a big fit when the left tried to use the controversey to attack the church and it’s basic practices/existence and the right rushed to defend the church.

    And Fisternis, how are pro-abortion, pro-animals, pro-affirmative action, pro-enviorment, redistributionists not left?


  • And Fisternis, how are pro-abortion, pro-animals, pro-affirmative action, pro-enviorment, redistributionists not left?

    The “Left/right” scale is about economic, no link with Animals, Abortion, Environment and moral/social issue. Sure, most Environementalist are leftish, but this is’nt a real critter, you are’nt leftish only if you are an environmentalist. For exemple Capital Punishment is considered rightish, Anti-abortion too, but you are not for Capital Punishment (as i remember) and i am not for abortion, this does’nt mean i am more “rightish” for that, i believe that equal good for everyone is a noble goal. And from my European point of view, both the Democrats and the Republican are from the right wing, sure democrats are not as rightish, but they are.


  • They want a national health care system for goodness sake! THey are resposible for European style entitlements!


  • @yourbuttocks:

    They want a national health care system for goodness sake! THey are resposible for European style entitlements!

    Well from your point of view, they are probably center-left, but from mine they’re not. I doupt the right in France can compare to your “left”, our right is far more leftish 🙂

    And btw i does not understand your signature, you have one common rebuttal made by leftish people (by bossk), and a quote of Einstein… i find that a little strange as i know you are catholic and you said yourself communism is bad. Sarcasm ?


  • Islam is getting a black eye. If you are well versed in current affairs.

    There are about 23 active conflicts going on in the world today.
    20 of those are in or around Islamic territories. The only one that is a religious conflict is between Israel and Palestinians. Look how much attention is paid to the I/P conflict while the others get little or no comment in America’s news media.


  • The India/Pakistan conflict is a similar situation but much more extreme. Yet the Media barely even mentions it unless a war is about to break out.

    Islaamic provinces are the center of conflict for 2 reasons right now. 1) They were hit hardest by Imperialism and 2) The Middle East has oil.

    Keep in mind there were thousands of conflicts where Christianity was the motivation in Dark-Middle age europe.


  • @FinsterniS:

    @yourbuttocks:

    They want a national health care system for goodness sake! THey are resposible for European style entitlements!

    Well from your point of view, they are probably center-left, but from mine they’re not. I doupt the right in France can compare to your “left”, our right is far more leftish 🙂

    And btw i does not understand your signature, you have one common rebuttal made by leftish people (by bossk), and a quote of Einstein… i find that a little strange as i know you are catholic and you said yourself communism is bad. Sarcasm ?

    Some more irony for you - Einstein wasn’t Christian, he was Jewish and almost became the first President of Israel. Before his death he had requested that the world treat Israel fairly.

    And I agree with Yanny about what he said about Christianity. According to what I’ve read in the New Testament Jesus said to turn the other cheek when someone slaps you, and the Christians really did that during the crusades. Had they just fought the Muslims in a war, I could understand that a war broke out and they had to defend themselves from death, but killing pagans and Jews along the way, that’s very non-violent.


  • why EG, are you being sarcastic?
    weird.


  • @cystic:

    why EG, are you being sarcastic?
    weird.

    It’s true anyway, pagan were killed by christians

    Some more irony for you - Einstein wasn’t Christian, he was Jewish and almost became the first President of Israel.

    He was of Jewish blood but not of religion my friend. Anyway, everyone want him on his side but the fact is; he was’nt a Theist, and he was’nt an Atheist; he was a Pantheist, à la Spinoza. No link with christianism, judaism, islamism.


  • Emu, you conviently leave out something. The Christian murderers also killed millions of Muslims whom they were fighting in an offensive war of conquest. Christians slaughtered whole cities of people in the name of their God. Pagans too were killed if they refused to convert. Jews were forced into Exile (I believe, memory is unclear).


  • and for Islam you could add continued persecution of Christians around the world, including physicians involved in humanitarian missions.

    but this is all so pointless. I mean, we could go on ad nauseum and point the fingers at atheists (China, Russia, Cuba, North Korea, etc.) - the family of my grandparents were executed/murdered/exiled/raped by communists?
    Big deal.

    It’s amazing how much time, effort, energy and verbage is wasted pointing out the evils committed by people who claim to be acting as agents for one religion/cause/ideology or another.

    This thread began nobly enough. Looking for the beauty in another culture, religion, people - whatever. Instead it’s been twisted to “look how evil these people act” rather than “look at the beauty in these passages”/ideals/philosophies, while pontificating on dead philosophies.
    Pretty useless. So far none of my Arabic colleagues/mentors/teachers/helpers have tried to kill me lately, but have acted beautifully towards me, helping me understand the art and science of my profession better. The same has been true of many Christian and Jewish colleagues as well.


  • I never said it was an argument against Christianism or Theism, it’s just an argument against dogma, i never said atheit were clean. you should try to avoid that as much as everyone else.

    And there is a difference between killing people because of a belief, and killing becuase of something else while you hold a belief. For exemple in the inquisition they kill because of their religion (even if it’s not a good interpretation), and some atheist destroy temple because of their belief in atheism (as much a bad interpretation). But Hitler did not kill because of christianism, and stalin did’nt kill because of atheism, they simply hold these belief (even if it’s not clear in the two case).

    but this is all so pointless.

    This is’nt false but i think Yanny just want to show that the common claim that islam is violent is historicly a non-sence, at least it’s not more than other religion base of the god of Abraham.

    it’s amazing how much time, effort, energy and verbage is wasted pointing out the evils committed by people who claim to be acting as agents for one religion/cause/ideology or another.

    I often, and you cannot blame me for that, said it was’nt an argument.

    The same has been true of many Christian and Jewish colleagues as well.

    You have no Atheist, secular Humanist in Canada ?


  • @EmuGod:

    @yourbuttocks:

    @F_alk:

    conversion of non-jews/christians/zoroastrians.

    Who was not one of these three?

    He’s right. In medieval times, you were either Jewish, Christian or Muslim

    or not in Europe…. which faith had the Mongols before they converted to Islam?


  • This is’nt false but i think Yanny just want to show that the common claim that islam is violent is historicly a non-sence, at least it’s not more than other religion base of the god of Abraham.

    Exactly. I am not saying Islaam isn’t violent. I am saying all the religions of the book are equally guilty. I just get pissed when people spread lies about one particular religion because of current events.


  • @Yanny:

    Emu, you conviently leave out something. The Christian murderers also killed millions of Muslims whom they were fighting in an offensive war of conquest. Christians slaughtered whole cities of people in the name of their God. Pagans too were killed if they refused to convert. Jews were forced into Exile (I believe, memory is unclear).

    No Yanny they were burned at the stake usually but sometimes they were exiled or forced to convert. For the most part, they were executed.


  • This is still amazing.
    I could declare myself a FinsterniSian, a Yannyan, or an Emugodian for whatever reason i wanted (possibly because of greed, misplaced political acumen, whatever), go about committing evil acts of violence to the point where FS, Y, and EG would cry in disbelief and sadness, and claim to do them in the names of FS, Y and EG still. Although these acts would be against secular humanism, or Jewish law and custom, or against nature itself, my performing these acts would still smear what FS, Y, and EG stand for, irrespective of their own teachings and beliefs.
    Still, what is the point?
    The evils done by people proclaiming themselves to be Christians (yes, there’s that word again FS) i believe are doubly horrific as they are the exact opposite to the beliefs that they claim to espouse. Jesus said that to do good things for your friends and to lend money to those that will pay you back say nothing good about you, but to do good for your “enemies” and lend to those you don’t expect money back from anyway are ideas critical to the practice of Christianity. So naturally when people claim to be Christians yet do worse than the opposite of what is instructed of them, then this somehow blackens the eye of Christianity?
    (obviously this bugs me a little bit)
    And FS - AFAIK one tenet of communism is atheism which helped the communists in their attempted extermination of my people - not saying all communists are evil, but their dogma did not do a whole lot for us in Russia. Also although there are atheists and secular humanists in Canada, my point was that a person did not have to be one in order to practice love. Furthermore, i have not had much discussion with regards to any of humanistic beliefs of my atheist preceptors.


  • CC, heres the problem. The Facist hold that Christianity (and a lot of other Monotheist religions, including Islaam and Judaism) is a compelling force that can be used to control the masses. It has been used hundreds of times in history to kill millions. The problem not lies with the religion, but with the ignorant (no offense intended) blind-faith followers of the religion who truely believe they are working for God.

    The Crusaders believed they were doing the right thing. Thats where the problem stems from.


  • yeah Yanny, but this is true of politics too . . .
    look at George Bush . . . 😄

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