Yes Tall Paul; I agree. Except when that Yankee Brad Putt blows it up!
I will be sad.
Islaam really isn't as violent as you think
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Whoops – guess I hit a nerve. I was aiming for the funny bone… which can be a risky place to operate when the subject is religion.
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eh, no biggie no beatdown. :wink:
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less perveted? its more!
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…quoting from Jay Leno, “What do Bernard Law and Mark McGwire have in common? — They’re both retired Cardinals.”
Interesting to contrast the current status of this particular branch of organized big-time religion (Catholicism), which has had a 900-year headstart on Islam. Some aspects are ossified, some are radically active, it has had schism upon schism, its spread has reached every conceivable geography.
And while in North America it would not generally be identified with militarism or terrorism, there certainly are places where local governments see the Church as either fomenting or supporting armed rebellion – whether we are speaking of Northern Ireland or some Latin American nations. The Church probably had a supporting role in the overthrow of Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines.
In heavily Catholic Poland, the Church provided the Solidarnosc labor union and human rights movement the critical sanctuary to hold meetings and network, throughout the anti-Soviet uprising of the 1980s.
In other lands, e.g. Italy and France, the Church is identified with the most conservative, entrenched sectors of society.
And there are still other views: I have little doubt that the various Protestant and Catholic branches of Christianity are fused, in the minds of many a Middle Eastern Muslim, with the militaristic projection of “Western” culture – ironic for a religion with roots no less “Eastern” than Islam. (Just ask any Native American if Christian missionaries came from the east or the west.)
Catholicism in the US has always bred a spectrum of activists, from essentially communist or socialist type champions of the poor, to faith-directed antinuclear and antiviolence organizers, to the “Onward Christian Soldiers” types who are ready to brandish the “just war” stamp of approval at the drop of a hat.
And now, with war-and-peace crises, rampant plagues, famine, and other reports of disaster issuing from every time zone on Earth, what are the 35 million or so Catholics in the US in an uproar over? The home town Church acting like a fortress to shield those within its ranks who prey on children! As one priest in Boston said, it is like something out of the Dark Ages.
Instead of millions of bucks headed out to the streets to fight disease, hunger and poverty, those millions of bucks will go toward making some restitution to the thousands of adults who are suing the Church for crimes against their own childhoods. It’s like a class-action suit against an asbestos manufacturer, where the damage isn’t visible for 20 years after the exposure. If this isn’t VIOLENCE committed under the banner of a religion, I don’t know what is…
More’s the pity!
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the violence is not committed under the banner of religion. no more than crimes in America are committed under tha banner of nationalism.
Certainly the “violence” is committed within the auspices of a religious organization, however you may look at coaches who sexually assault their hockey players (Graham James for example). Now the coach is there in a position of trust, and in order to advance in hockey is very difficult to do without the good will of your coach. These perverted acts by coaches and priests (and schoolteachers, busdrivers, doctors, lawyers, fathers, uncles, prisoncellmates) take place because of opportunity - not as an application of religion/sport/education/medicine/law/familyrearing/prison etc. You have sick and twisted people in every branch of life. These things are more shocking because they are coming to light now, and happened in a religious institution - one that should be protecting people.
Shame on them.
but be careful about blaming religion. it has enough problems anyway. -
Catholics are the most evenly split politically, of any religion in America. (In 2000 49% voted for Gore, 47% voted for Bush) The Jews vote left, evangelical christians vote right.
I attribute that Catholic teachings align with Leftist economics and Rightist social/moral policies.
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@F_alk:
conversion of non-jews/christians/zoroastrians.
Who was not one of these three?
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You’re blaming an institution for human nature.
Would you say day-care workers are perverted just because a high percentage (much higher than any clergy in any denomination) of them are pedophiles?
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Catholics are the most evenly split politically, of any religion in America. (In 2000 49% voted for Gore, 47% voted for Bush) The Jews vote left, evangelical christians vote right.
The “center” in America is rightish, Democrat are’nt leftish. And i’m surprised Catholic vote so much for Gore. In Germany the Catholic were very conservative, and even if i think the Democrat are conservative I thought American catholic were more encline to vote for Bush.
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@F_alk:
conversion of non-jews/christians/zoroastrians.
Who was not one of these three?
He’s right. In medieval times, you were either Jewish, Christian or Muslim and in the Christian world, it was not good to be a Muslim (who were almost not there) nor a Jew. In the Muslim world, it was not good to be a Jew or Christian, with the small exception of Spanish Jewry, but even the prominent Jews there did not see their lives as prosperous.
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Mr. CC, regarding your statement about “crimes of opportuniity, not of religion,” I pretty much agree this is not about the faith of Christianity. But it is about the structure of the Catholic institution, which sequesters volunteer celibates, both nuns and priests, with young and naive members of the same sex. And of course the crimes extend beyond same-sex predation.
I have always thought that Protestant ministers at least have the opportunity to lead by example, in terms of marrying and raising a traditional family. Priests in the Catholic zone, however, accept a more or less extreme “family” structure… and then proceed to dispense wisdom on matters of relationships the type of which they themselves are banned from experiencing first-hand. I have encountered priests who are absolutely first rate in doing so, and in all other repects are true leaders and spiritual guides, but it seems to me they have risen above the built-in flaws of the structure.
Not that I am a student of the Church, but the gist I have picked up is that many members of the church would agree that the current crisis stems in some large part from that structure, and there are organized calls for a new approach to the rules of the priesthood.
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Then how do you explain the fact that rates of pedophilia are higher among married men than unmarried men?
How do you explain the high rates among protestant ministers? day care workers? teacher’s?
People who have an axe to grind with the church should come out and be honest, insteading misleading by using an inapplicable pretext.
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The problem for me is not that the Priests abused children, they eventually got their punishment, but how the church handled it.
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They tried to cover it up. If they were the Anti-Sinner, pure people they claim to be, they’d of told the police right away.
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South Park episode. Classic.
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Took the Pope to say “Molest a child, and your out”, and some Catholics disagreed with that. It should be, “Molest a child, and you go to jail”, but sadly, Priests are not being convicted, or even charged, or at least its not making the news.
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Friggin South Park episode.
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It is true Yanny that there were some officials who acted disgracefully. Such as Cardinal Law (who resigned).
However, ZimZaxZero said that the church’s structure caused the problem. What I was saying is that it failed to fully prevent it. Big difference.
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Then how do you explain the fact that rates of pedophilia are higher among married men than unmarried men?
How do you explain the high rates among protestant ministers? day care workers? teacher’s?
People who have an axe to grind with the church should come out and be honest, insteading misleading by using an inapplicable pretext.
Well, I won’t pretend I can explain any of this, seeing as how I am not familiar with how any of those data compare with what’s been stewing in the U.S. Catholic Church. Bringing these things into daylight frequently seems to have at least a touch of “witchhunt” – for example the daycare scandals of a decade ago.
I will agree with the Yannster: the Church created a system or environment of coverup. This is the huge “sin” as far as Cardinal Law and his ilk go.As regards your point about an ax(e) to grind, well… maybe see my earlier comments in this thread: I am wondering out loud why, at a time when an established, powerful religious institution – Islam – is being scrutinized publicly in the town square on matters of life, death, liberty, etc., we turn to see what’s up with this other established, powerful religious institution – Catholicism – and find that here in the US it is racked with a power-sapping, influence-draining, effectiveness-eroding scandal of a sordid nature, of its own making.
The irony in it to me, is that some of the more politically active ((and I’m not saying these are spiritual leaders, or even leaders of the Church)) Catholics in the US are among those most vociferous in calling for a “crusade” against a demonized external threat to our civilization. It’s the IRONY that gets me going, not necessarily an ax to grind against this specific religious institution.
I will “come out and be honest” that the Catholic Church is the one religious institution with which I am most familiar. I don’t think that makes me allergic to its misdeeds, however. I am equally amused, angered, frustrated, etc. by the misanthropy demonstrated from time to time by persons of influence within ALL other big organized religious powerhouses – and almost as amused, angered and astonished by the malevolence of some very very small religious groupings, from time to time. ON THE OTHER HAND, there is almost universally some grain of good in each and every one of these cults or sects or houses or temples of worship. Tis an ambivalent world we inhabit, and also tis a not-yet-mature species, or people, we be.
Peace to guys & gals of good will…
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Zero, the thing is that most cases of pedophilia that have ever come up have been handled well. even if there was never enough proof to convict these Priests, they are ussually not allowed to actively minister.
It is true that in some cases individual leaders acted shamefully.
For example, how many of these cases involved a priest ordained in the last 20 years, since safeguards were put in place to better screen?
In the U.S. there was a big fit when the left tried to use the controversey to attack the church and it’s basic practices/existence and the right rushed to defend the church.
And Fisternis, how are pro-abortion, pro-animals, pro-affirmative action, pro-enviorment, redistributionists not left?
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And Fisternis, how are pro-abortion, pro-animals, pro-affirmative action, pro-enviorment, redistributionists not left?
The “Left/right” scale is about economic, no link with Animals, Abortion, Environment and moral/social issue. Sure, most Environementalist are leftish, but this is’nt a real critter, you are’nt leftish only if you are an environmentalist. For exemple Capital Punishment is considered rightish, Anti-abortion too, but you are not for Capital Punishment (as i remember) and i am not for abortion, this does’nt mean i am more “rightish” for that, i believe that equal good for everyone is a noble goal. And from my European point of view, both the Democrats and the Republican are from the right wing, sure democrats are not as rightish, but they are.
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They want a national health care system for goodness sake! THey are resposible for European style entitlements!
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They want a national health care system for goodness sake! THey are resposible for European style entitlements!
Well from your point of view, they are probably center-left, but from mine they’re not. I doupt the right in France can compare to your “left”, our right is far more leftish :)
And btw i does not understand your signature, you have one common rebuttal made by leftish people (by bossk), and a quote of Einstein… i find that a little strange as i know you are catholic and you said yourself communism is bad. Sarcasm ?
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Islam is getting a black eye. If you are well versed in current affairs.
There are about 23 active conflicts going on in the world today.
20 of those are in or around Islamic territories. The only one that is a religious conflict is between Israel and Palestinians. Look how much attention is paid to the I/P conflict while the others get little or no comment in America’s news media.
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