Standard GER opening with RR, 2hit BB? - help needed



  • Hi, new to A&A. Although I’m new, I’ve managed to beat ppl who’ve played the game for several years, even taking GER on R6, due to a poor African strategy and a pre-mature move to Caucasus (G4) by the German stack. Been lurking in the forums for a few days.

    Anyways, we have new house rules, so I need a little help with my GER opening. The house rules are modified forms of RR, 2hit BB (everything else is standard 2nd ed):

    RR - Russia can make no land attacks on GER (but Manchuria, and air attacks are ok)

    2hit BB - battleships get 2 hp, but requires 8 IPC to fix 1 hp damage - option to fix at the end of turn, using IPCs collected for next turn. (This makes for some interesting tradeoffs - trans are more useful cannon fodder, but can only be deployed in IC SZs)
    –-----------------------------------------------------------
    My standard GER opening (for RR, 1hit BB):

    (Assumes Baltic Fleet Sunk)

    8 INF, 1 trans

    Fighters, Bomber, and W.Eur sub to sink 2 UK BB groups. (Leaving E.Can UK trans, Syria/Iraq UK sub alive).

    BB and trans stay in S.Eur SZ

    African forces south, blitz down. Trans 2 INF to Libya. (If necessary, ready to hit Egypt on G2 with 3INF + 1 tank, plus units from trans, BB shot, and fighters)

    If defense die total for Karelia is less than 6-12 more than Finland, E.Eur, Ukraine total offensive total (including tank blitz from GER, S.Eur), then all above mentioned units hit Karelia for one round, retreating to E.Eur, leaving 1 INF in Finland, Ukraine. (Basically, If RUS doesn’t put enough in Karelia, it’s worth it to hit Karelia to evacuate tank from Finland, while losing, on average, 1-2 INF more than Russia, or if Russia is stupid, actually losing less INF than Russia does!)

    Place 2-3 INF plus 1 FTR to W.Eur, Bomber in GER,  everything else to E. Eur., except possible tank in S.Eur, for transport to Africa.

    Deploy trans to S.Eur, 2-4 INF for deployment to Africa, remaining INF to GER.

    The only real problem with my standard opening is that 2hit BBs are harder to kill, making Axis airforces losses more likely. Normally, I send 4 FTR against UK SZ, and 1FTR, 1Bomber, and sub against Gibraltar BB. (As you guys already know, moving the Med BB out to Gibraltar opens it to UK air attack.

    I like to use more power than necessary, because I’d rather have a very low chance of losing more than one fighter, than take more risk to sink the W.Can trans, or other assets.

    But with 2 hit BB, should I just use the same opening (and just accept more losses) or adjust them somehow?

    (I’ve also read ncscswitch’s GER opening strat - interesting G1 amphib invasion of Egypt - but what if the sub scores a hit?)


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Man, with 2 Hit Battleships you better be getting one heck of a good opening bid. 🙂

    Without a bid, you’re just asking to loose, IMHO.



  • A G1 Sea lion requires a naval bid, no exceptions.  So a single sub hit on your inbound TRNs, while crippling, does not immediately end your assault.  Also, if you have a naval bid in the Baltic, then you should also have a German SUB left, definitely true if playing RR.



  • I have some questions.

    1. You state you lost your baltic fleet in the normal game. Wich is impossible, because it was RR. It is a stupid rule to let Russia commit air attacks and an attack on Manch.
    2. A skilled Russia player will have around 19 inf on round 1 in Kar. So if you build a tran and plan to go to Afr next round with 2 shiploads of units EEU will fall pretty quick, or get strafed easily. So why the tran?

    Back in the days I used to play RR with no bid I did something like this:

    1. buy 10 inf or 9 inf and a tank
    2. Attack UK sz with Sub, bmb, 2 fig
    3. Attack Can sz with fig
    4. Attack Med sz with Sub and 2 fig’s
    5. Land in Egypt. 3 inf and 1 arm.
    6. NCM 2 inf from Norway to Algeria/EEU
    7. Everything to EEU (leave 1 inf in Ukr)
    8. 2 inf and 1 fig to WE
    9. Place 8 inf in Ger and 2 in SEU

    The problem with playing RR without a bid is that Russia can pretty easy outstack you in Kar. The problem for the Axis is the delaying the Russians can do in Asia, they can keep Jap at bay for 2 turns, before they start to lose heartlands, so they can outstack the Germans and at the same time the UK and USA will pound Ger into oblivion!



  • I’m aware that Axis needs significant bids to win against fully-optimized play, but luckily or unluckily, my play group isn’t there yet. Axis has a fighting chance with no bid, because my Allied opponents haven’t discovered the correct way to pressure Germany (shuck-shuck), and how important it is to prevent RUS from having two fronts. Sounds cocky, I know, but I think I have a fair chance.

    Here’s what actually happened:

    First turn: Russia doesn’t put enough in Karelia, and actually sends units towards Japan. Germany amphibs Egypt (2 hit BB), airforce takes out Gibraltar BB but UK fleet untouched. Germany strafes Karelia, evacuating Norway, leaving 1 INF in Ukr. Bad dice rolls make the battle about even. UK sends UK fleet plus W.Can trans to amphib assault Algeria, UK bomber to RUS, builds AC in UK, no India factory. Japan pearl harbors (I know ncscswitch hates that - but I just don’t have that confidence to leave a big US fleet, esp with Russia going the other way!), takes China. US sends surviving ships to Panama Canal, trans and inf, the usual. US sends E.US trans to reinforce Algeria.

    Second turn: Russia still doesn’t put enough in Karelia, more units to Japan, takes Finland, Ukr, Manchuria. Will seriously limit Japanese expansion speed. Germany strafes Karelia (lose 3INF for 6INF), sends just built S.Eur trans as cannon fodder, with airforce to sink 1 UK BB, 3 trans. Lose transport.  UK brings back AUS INF to India, India fighter & RUS bomber sink 3 unprotected Jap transports, lose fighter. (My BIG mistake, and cost of pearl harbor.) Japan takes China, Manchuria, Jap fleet based in Japan. US sends two trans with inf to French West Africa, takes Libya with Algerian troops and air support, BB moves to W.US, trans, inf, tank buy.

    So, the current status (end of second turn):

    Positives:
    Germany has only lost one fighter, all other off. units intact. (10 tanks, 4 ftr, 1 bomber)
    Japan has lost no offensive units (5 ftr, 1 bomber, 1 tank)
    Germany has temporary command of Med (1 2-hit BB, trans).
    Germany has no pressure on Eastern front (9tanks, 8inf, 1 ftr in EE, vs. 5inf in Kur, 2inf in Caucusus, 2 tanks in RUS)
    US and UK with moderately-sized commitments to Africa.

    Negatives:
    Japan severely restricted by Russia deployment to Asia, loss of transport capacity.
    Germany has not taken much African UK income, now heavily outnumbered in Africa.
    UK Indian transport still alive (2nd mistake - had chance to destroy it.)

    Situation:
    Japan’s front is Manchuria, China, Fr Indo-Burma, each with enough infantry to hold out against immediate assault, but not enough to take territories. 3 trans from J2 build, plus entire fleet in Japan SZ, with one trans in Kwangtung SZ.
    Russia holds opposite front with 2 INF in every territory, and tanks in RUS, Novo.
    No pressure on German East Front, but Africa has UK forces (1 ftr, 2 INF, 1 tank) in Algeria, US forces in Fr. W Africa (4INF, 2 ftr), US forces in Libya (2 INF). German forces consoldated in Equatorial Africa (3 INF, 1 tank).

    German airforce has chance to destroy 2 US trans off Equatorial Africa, with 3 W.Eur fighters, German Bomber, and/or attacking exposed UK units, using 3 INF as cannon fodder. Tank would blitz down toward undefended S. Africa.

    (I’ll give a more detailed description if people are interested).



  • Bashir:

    The house rules are modified forms of RR, 2hit BB (everything else is standard 2nd ed):

    RR - Russia can make no land attacks on German land forces (but Manchuria, and air attacks are ok)

    2hit BB - battleships get 2 hp, but requires 8 IPC to fix 1 hp damage - option to fix at the end of turn, using IPCs collected for next turn. (This makes for some interesting tradeoffs - trans are more useful cannon fodder, but can only be deployed in IC SZs)



  • Actually those changes favor the Allies… The only drawback is that Rus can’t attack Ger on turn 1… I will take those rules anyday!

    The other thing is that you stated you normal moves. I thought that was without the new houserules, that was why I made my comment.



  • Bashir…

    In a game of Revised, I would agree… Russia Restricted would play total HAVOC with the Allies.

    In Classic… it actually harms the Allies almost not at all, especially since teh Baltic Naval battle, and Manchuria can still occur.  Germany gains Caucuses for 1-2 turns.  That is about it.  From there, it plays out as normal.



  • Hi

    Sounds like the loss of those transports is really going to hurt the most. You will be only getting 6 INF ashore per turn instead of 12. This is going to make it hard for the Japs to make headway.

    Also sounds like Germany is pretty bottled up by large allied forces in Africa and more on the way.

    Here’s what I’d do.

    Priority 1.
    Kick the US and UK out of Asia. The last thing you want in more UK and US forces popping up in central asia. Use your offensive power to clear India and Sianking ASAP.

    Priority 2
    Sink every allied transport you can. This will hopefully stem the flow of men to Africa. If you can’t effectively sink them try bluffing. The allies may go cautious for a few turns.

    Priority 3.
    Rebuild Jap attrition loss capability. Either more TRNs or ICs would work. You need 10+ JAP INF per turn landing in Asia to match the Allied production.

    As a last gamble try hitting the Russians hard with Germany and following up with an aggressive move against Russia by Japan on the same turn could swing the economy enough to put Russia down enough for some breathing space. If you have captures SINK and MANCH then there are 4 territories you can grab in a turn. That would be a 16 point swing in ane swoop. Russia will then need to decide whether to retake its Eastern territories or go after germany.

    Overall though it sounds like those opening moves have really hurt Japan so it will take some really good turns to get back on track. There was nothing really wrong with your opening strategy, although I’m a bit unsure about the suicide transport? A turn 2-3 fighter purchase would make more sense in order to keep pressure on the allied Atlantic shipping.

    Also the 2 Hit BB definitely favours the Allies. The Atalntic convoy system will relly enjoy the extra protection from the 3 Allied Battle ships. The Axis really only gain from the Italian BB which doesn’t really impact the game to the same extent. I would argue for an additional German BB as compensation for this rule. Then you can replay the famous “sink the Bismark battle”



  • Agreed…

    A Germany BB in the Baltic as a repalcement for any other bid could indeed make for a viable game under this rule set.



  • Switch, RR in Classic where Russia can attack with air and can attack Japan with 2 hit bb => favors the allies… See if I played nondescript, I would have 19 inf 3 tanks and 1 fig in Kar at the end of R1. With him buying a trans I can easily strafe him in EEU the next turn setting the Axis back even further. Rus and UK will preform the kwangbang and will set back Japan, so I ment overall I would take those rules as the allies

    Another note, can the Russian ships attack with your houserules?

    By the way, the only way the 2 hit bb will help the axis in Japan. Pearl will be easy, and you don’t even have to fix the BB’s if everything goes according to plan. Fixing the BB at the cost of 8 IPC’s is kinda stupid as well, because the Allies have enough IPCs to do it and a cheap way to protect their fleet. They buy an extra 4 on defense for only 8 IPC’s!!! So just get rid of those stupid rules… Just play 23 bid for the axis and get the win in a fair battle 😄



  • Haha, thanks for the input.

    The rules are very lopsided in favor of the Allies, I agree. But again, with Allies not setting up shuck-shuck, and Russia voluntarily going for Japan, I might just pull it off.

    As it is, we play games in sets, with switching off between axis/allies. To win as axis is like “breaking serve” in tennis - you’re not supposed to win, but you do anyways. I’m definitely going to go for for a rule change for the next round.

    After looking at the board a little more, I think Japan can make up for lost time. Even with good Russian play, Japan can take SFE on J3, and Yukut on J4, while putting adequate pressure to keep the China-Burma front against UK. BB’s swing down in J4 to take potshots, setup for an assault on J5.

    With the allied fleet out of position in Africa (not the Algeria-W.Eur SZ, the one below it), it will be US4 or later to develop pressure on Germany. Hopefully by G5, Germany will have broken through the Eastern front. The real question is how much to devote to Africa, to see if I can get US/UK to commit entirely to Africa. (US bought a bomber on US2)


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