Clarification on AA gun


  • 2007 AAR League

    Ok, so my friend and I are having trouble with the AA rules when shooting down planes.  Let’s say I have 2 bombers and 4 fighters going on an SBR run over Germany.  When Germany roles the dice, does she role ALL the dice for all the planes, or role separately for the fighters and then the bombers?  B/c I thought I read somewhere (in the rules maybe? those were unclear) that you role for the fighters then the bombers.  Whats the deal?



  • Yeah it’s separate for fighters and bombers  :lol:



  • Separately?

    I thought you rolled 1 die for each aircraft, in this case 6 dice.  If 2 hits are delivered, the defender gets to choose what gets shot down.

    Text from Revised rule book page 25…

    “Antiaircraft guns can shoot down attacking air units.  Whenever an air unit enters a territory containing an enemy antiaircraft gun, the antiaircraft gun fires during the opening fire step of th combat.  Roll one die for each attacking air unit (but ony one antiaircraft gun in a territory can fire, even if they are controlled by different powers).  For every roll of a 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed.”

    This tells me there is no distinction between fighters and bombers since they are all attacking air units.  Roll six dice, defender chooses casualties.



  • I don’t know about where it is in the rules, but…

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/faqs/axisrevised

    "Is anti-aircraft fire targeted against specific aircraft?

    Yes. In practice, you can roll a handful of dice against all enemy fighters, then roll another handful against all enemy bombers. The reason for this rule is so that bombers will be forced to take hits from AA guns."



  • well thats not how I play :lol:.  I actually find AA guns to be a waste anyway, since they dont seem to hit all that often or change the outcome of the battle all that much.  I mean you have a one in six chance of actually hiting anything with them.  Does anybody even by those things?



  • Try this for anyone who plays the board game…

    AA guns can be casualties, fire at up to 6 planes, are stackable. More interesting, more buyable, more realistic.

    You can play with the numbers- only fires at 3 planes (or whatever), defends on a 2 (like an Artillery) if no planes present, etc.

    When I wrote to Larry Harris about this he didn’t answer me… I’m not quite sure why it was insulting, I just thought (as do those I game with FTF) that it made AA more fun. I guess he’s touchy about it or something.



  • I am just of the opinion that they should go away.  They don’t make that much sense and they never change the outcome of the war.  The only person I have ever seen buy them was a noob and he only did it once.



  • I don’t see too many people buying them, but they are a very useful piece to have. Lets take the caucus for example, and you have 4 inf, 2 fighters there. Germany is going to attack with 4 inf, 4 fighters. With your aagun there, germany’s chances are at 72% or so, but they will likely not have any inf left to take. Without the aagun there is a shift to 90%, and they probably will take with infantry.

    I think you underrate aaguns. In the course of a game I’d say that each aagun is likely to take out at least one air piece, maybe more. Considering that you get a lot of them for free, I wouldn’t complain.



  • As far as getting alot for free, that depends on who you play.  Japan gets one and you can’t do much with it.  Who wants to waist space on a trans?  Same goes for England.  Germany is the only power that gets “alot for free”.  I just don’t think they are all that usefull, but I’ll admit that when you boil it down to the numbers (takes alot of the fun out of the game to analize it that much IMO) they do seem to make a diffrence.



  • Well, there are 5 in play in europe/russia, which is plenty. The axis and allies each get “a lot” when combined. If you are seriously complaining about over-analyzing, why are you on a forum discussing all the nuances of play?  😐



  • Oh, you got me there. :lol:

    Realy its just that I don’t like it when the game is reduced to a big math equation.  Drives me up the flippen’ wall.  I love this game and I want to see it imporved, and I think revised does that, but to make it a big math problem takes away from  the game rather than adding to it.  I could be wrong, but ultamately even though I like to win, I don’t want to have to carry a calculatior to figure out if a given attack will result in victory.  I like to just try it and if it doesen’t work, well, it’s only a game.  I do think about strat and I don’t just play radomly, but nothing makes me happier than an opponet who does the unexpected.



  • Yes,

    it seems the AA rule is in effect according to the errata.  I don’t very much like that rule where the bombers are attacked separately, but ok.

    The AA guns can be a brutal deciding factor in combat for the simple reason any aircraft hit is removed from combat prior to attacking.  This can be huge.

    And yes, I have rolled 4-1’s (out of 4 dice).  If you play enough you see things like this happen and it makes you think before attacking zones with AA.  Firing your AA guns is an opportunity for the defender to change the course of the game.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I did use the LHTR though, and it was still causing problems for my friends and I.  I tried to argue that you roll for the fighters then the bombers, but after reading the rules, it came across to them that you can choose to pick what plane gets hit.  The LHTR, IMHO, still is somewhat unclear.  Why the heck didn’t they just outright say, you HAVE to roll first for bombers then fighters? WHYYYYY?@!?!



  • i like aa guns tri, they add that element of uncertainty to air raids.  if you canned them  i would think you would have to scrap sbr’s as well.  the more variance you remove from the game the more predictable (boring) it becomes.  some guys become known as easy tagets to bomb and some become the city you do not mess with (“snake eyes AGAIN, that is just wrong”) i have seen the aa completely change games and seen it be a complete non-factor which imho i think is cool.

    we , by the way, don’t specify the aa target so in a large battle the fighters get hit and on sbr why are you taking fighters? the escort rule?


  • 2007 AAR League

    hey what is LHTR?  i always thought only bombers could go on sbr .  so if figs & bombers are attacking land you roll all dice attacker choses casualites. but if you send bombers on and SBR and figs to land you roll seperatly.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Well, what I meant was that my friend sent his bombers and fighters against France and the AA gun blew away one of the planes.  But I had figured that the AA gun owner had to fire first at the fighters then the bombers.  And that’s what  I did, but somehow my friend just took out a fighter instead of a bomber, which I had rolled for.  And then we got to arguing and I went for the rules, even the Larry Harris Tournament Rule book, but somehow they were also unclear, and I “KNEW” that you rolled for fighters then bombers.  but i was overruled.



  • For those who say that AA just needs to go away…

    I blame my near total lack of success wtih AA fire in large part for my recent loss.  2 hits over 11 TURNS of play…  It left my opponent with 11 FIGs and a bomber on turn 11.

    That is just insane for such a long game.

    Aa is important, and essential.  And using it well can (in a normal dice game) make ALL the difference between winning and losing.



  • You never need to roll one die at a time, of course. You just lose the planes in the order of how far they moved, since except for that distinction, they’re identical.

    This brings up another question:

    So I guess we aren’t technically rolling for each plane individually, because with this method you are choosing which fighters die. For instance if there are 2 fighters with different movement points, and the enemy rolls 2 die and gets 1 hit, should you be able to choose that the fighter with less movement points dies? Or should you technically be rolling invidiaully for each fighter since they have different movement points?


  • 2007 AAR League

    roll all planes attacking land at the same time. attacker choses casualties.  roll all bombers only on SBR seperate.  hits will be bombers.  switch is also right AA can change a game,  they are very important.



  • You can do that mojo if you want to be ignoring the errata which clearly specifies that it is not the case, which is of course fine as that is common in this game.

    To trihero’s question -

    _Is anti-aircraft fire targeted against specific aircraft?

    Yes. In practice, you can roll a handful of dice against all enemy fighters, then roll another handful against all enemy bombers. The reason for this rule is so that bombers will be forced to take hits from AA guns._

    I would say that it clearly states that you can pick whichever fighter you wish. Again from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/faqs/axisrevised - which you can count as a reliable source or not.


  • 2007 AAR League

    i disagree i’m reading the rules manual from revised. whenever a air unit enters a territory. so roll all air units at once, attacker choses casualites. SBR is only bombers so you roll that seperately



  • From the LHTR Rules (Opening Fire sequence):

    Antiaircraft Guns
    If the defender has an antiaircraft gun present and the attacker has air units in the attack, then the antiaircraft gun fires during this step. The defender rolls one die (only one antiaircraft gun fires) for each attacking air unit. You roll all anti-fighter dice at once, then all anti-bomber dice. For each type, the air unit owner allocates hits amongst the air units that are being shot at. For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed; its controller moves it into the casualty zone of the battle board. If there are not aircraft present, ignore this step.

    I’m not seeing what the issue is with LHTR. If you have 3 ftrs and 4 bombers attacking an AA gun location, roll 3 dice for the ftrs and pick which ftr you lose if any 1’s are rolled. Then roll 4 dice for the bombers and do the same.

    What am I missing???

    BW



  • @mojo:

    i disagree i’m reading the rules manual from revised. whenever a air unit enters a territory. so roll all air units at once, attacker choses casualites. SBR is only bombers so you roll that seperately

    The FAQ is meant to be a clarification of the rules, because they cannot reprint and automatically insert it into the box. Therefore, the FAQ supersedes the rules, and LHTR if you want to go with those would also supersede the rules in the printed version of the manual.



  • @Craig:

    Thanks BW.

    I was looking in other places in the LHTR that had references to AA Guns.  I did not look at that paragraph.

    This is a problem at times like this.Â

    There are four different places where AA Guns are talked about.Â

    1. Phase 3: Combat Move, Special Combat Moves, Air Units, Antiaircraft Guns, pg. 7

    2. Phase 4: Conduct Combat, Combat Sequence, Step 2: Conduct Opening Fire, Antiaircraft Guns, pg. 8

    3. Phase 4: Conduct Combat, Special Combats, Strategic Bombing Raids, pg. 13

    4. Appendix I: Unit Profiles, Antiaircraft Guns, Special Abilities, Shoot Down Air Units, pg. 17

    The first and last one are similar in what they say concerning AA Guns.  The third is just a quick reference about the firing of AA Guns against bombers during SBRs.Â

    The second is the only one that includes the statement that makes the extra clarification about how to specifically roll.  It talks about the separate roll for fighters and for bombers.

    Craig

    In reading the LHTR rules, anyone would be best advised to consider exactly what information they want. In particular - where in the course of a turn does the situation occur that gives rise to the question, then look in the associated action section for the answer first.

    If you want to know what a piece can do during combat movement, check the combat movement section first.

    In the case given here, “Do you roll all air units at once, and pick and choose amongst bombers and ftrs for AA losses, or do you roll one die for each individual piece?”, go to the section “Conduct Combat”.

    The unit profile section does contain valuable, accurate (as far as it goes), but not necessarily 100% complete information about what each piece can do in every situation.

    The LHTR rule were written so that you could have the page open for the stage of play you are at in every part of a turn to see what you need to do at that point, and then do it with confidence that you don’t need to be checking other parts of the manual for exceptions or variances.

    BW



  • Ok, I conciede my opinion.  I recant.  I’m an AA Heritic :lol:.  It must be due to the fact that I have played relitivly few games compared to some of you.  For the record (and here is another can o’ worms) I don’t like SBR’s either.  They don’t seem worth it to me.


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