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Invading UK



  • Yes, I know there is a similar thread but with very different tactics I thought a new thread is ok.

    To the strategy then. What if Germany builds 5 transports in Baltic Sea in G1? They can still fight Russia, kill the UK destroyer/battleship and launch an attack in Africa. They immediately pose a threat to UK as they can get 10 units there in G2. Sure, fighting Russia will be delayed for one turn but as far as I can see, that doesn’t matter much. Russia can’t build that fast with the extra turn to be able to threaten Germany anyway, and with the possibility of attacking UK both UK and US needs to reinforce making both of them unable to reach africa in force or for UK to even try to strengthen India. UK is simply forced to spend a lot of money on defense. They can choose sea or land but either way, Germany still doesn’t HAVE to attack UK. If they don’t they have a quite strong fleet that UK and US need to handle. This leaves Africa pretty much up for grabs for Germany.

    In addition Japan builds an IC in J1 and tries to take India, if they are successful UK will have a low income and no other place than UK to build units. Japan now only has to face Russia and US and are very close to be linking forces with the germans in Africa.

    I would like some views on this as we haven’t really come up with anything good that will prevent this from happening.



  • This hurts Germany more than you may think. Without spending any income whatsoever on land units, Russia should be pretty aggressive, and stack all forces from Caucasus + West Russia into Ukraine, as well as barely invade Belorussia + Karelia to collect income from those territories. Russia is going to be around 30 IPCs, which is going to be tough for the Germans to deal with.

    On turn 2, the UK and US should land in Africa anyways; the UK starts with 2 transports available and the US could build more on turn 1 + a carrier, so Africa is hardly up for grabs.

    Even though your German fleet is strong, you have left the Eastern front very open to the Russians for a quick turn or so, which can be very devastating if the Russian player is aggressive enough to take more territories away from you. And once the UK/US builds enough fighters, your fleet is going to be sunk.



  • Agreed… 5 TRN alone is NOT the best build if you want to go after UK in G2.  Add an AC into the mix and you have a chance…

    If you DO invade, it lets you use ALL of your figs, even figs you may have used to slow the Russian advance in G1.  It also provides one heck of a defense for your Baltic fleet (now 4 TRN, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DST, 2 SUB instead of 6 TRN (buying 5 in G1), 1 DST, 2 SUB.  With THAT fleet you can actually contest the Atlantic into Turn 4 at least, especially since UK will have to be defensive in their UK1 purchases (probably a lot of INF).

    Adding the AC to a TRN build also gives you increased flexibility should you NOT invade UK… it puts 2 UK FIGS in range of Karelia, Archangel and Belorussia while STILL defending Germany itself (by blocking naval assaults and being able to reach UK navy in any amphib attack on Western or Norway).

    But the reality is … it is an all or nothing gamble.  If you don;t take UK in G2, then Russia is going to rock Germany’s world.  In R1, Russia can be in Belorussia and West Russia.  Without land force purchases for reinforcement, Russia punches through any counter in Belorussia and Karelia by Germany from G1 and re-takes both, plus takes Ukraine in R1.  Now in G2, Germany’s land forces are heading for the do-or-die in UK, and if they die, then Russia takes Eastern and Blakans in R3… bye bye Germany.

    Even if you do take UK by this strategy, you are going to have to play some VERY defensive play as Germany in Europe to not be pressed back to your Russian front being Germany and Southern by the time you get to use UK’s money…  And then you have just traded one beast for another…  Instead of a UK in the 20’s for income and a USSR in the 20’s… you have a Russia around 40 IPC’s, and stacked to the gills with INF by the time Germany turns to face her.  Russia grabs some former UK territories in the middle east, maybe even Africa… and now Russia is a 50+ IPC nation attacking in BOTH directions HARD, keeping Germany in the low 40’s, and Japan from making any serious gains in IPC’s (mid-30’s)

    Meanwhile… here comes the US to Africa… and the US now has 60+ IPC’s…  And in addition to fighting the behemoth that Russia has become, Germany also has to figure out how to keep the US from liberating London…



  • Yeah, it’s quite amazing how defensive you have to play if you don’t build any land units whatsoever against Russia. I’ve played against myself a couple of times buying full navy with Germany’s first turn, and I essentially have to abandon scarily everything east of Germany/Southern Europe for a couple of turns! Including Eastern Europe…

    What happens is usually Russia takes Belorussia with 1 inf and West Russia with about 7 inf 4 arm 2 art. There’s 5 inf 1 art in Caucasus and 5 inf 2 art 2 fig in Moscow. This is all on Russia 1.

    Without any land purchases, I suppose the Germans will take Belorussia and Karelia, and have between 7-9 infantry left in Eastern Europe after occupying Karelia with 3 infantry and leaving 1-2 infantry in Belorussia and 1 in Ukraine (and this is pretty hardcore, even possibly taking infantry from Western Europe to stack in Eastern Europe if you want to get up to 9 infantry). This is on Germany 1.

    On Russia 2, the Russians will use up most of the 7 inf from West Russia using fighters and possibly 1 or 2 arts to retake Karelia and Belorussia, and then fully occupy Ukraine with everything else that can reach (about 6 inf 4 arm 1 art 1 aa gun), and then have 5 inf 1 art in West Russia and another 2 inf 2 art in Caucasus.

    On Germany two you’re in a quandary. You could counter the stack in Ukraine, but doing so would require a very large portion of your Eastern Europe infantry and tanks, and any fighters that you’re sending is subject to AA gun fire. And after having done this, you’re open to a counterattack of 7 inf 3 art 2 fighters from Caucasus/West Russia. I’ve tried counterattacking the Ukraine stack and  even had a leftover force of 1 infantry + 7 tanks, and the Russians still ran it over (with very average luck)!

    Now, if you don’t attack the Ukraine stack, you must immediately retreat to Berlin, because your pitiful 9 inf and X tanks will die to the full Russian onslaught since you have no land reinforcements whatsoever to speak of. Normally, you would have between 7-8 land troops to replenish Eastern Europe, so you could safely contest Karelia/Belorussia and not really fear a Russian push because it would cost him too much to go in so fast.

    Meanwhile… here comes the US to Africa… and the US now has 60+ IPC’s

    How does the US get 60+ IPCs, Switch? You can only get income from your ally’s territory if both of 2 conditions are met:

    1. His capital is under enemy control
    2. The territory you’re liberating is under enemy control

    You can’t simply go into Africa and blitz the UK’s territories to get credit for them unless Germany or Japan had occupied those territories and the capital. Essentially, the UK’s territories in Africa are “dead” IPCs that no one collects on until the Axis takes the territories, or the Allies liberate those territories from Axis control, or the UK gets his capital back.



  • That second restriction I was not aware of…

    So you just start in Alergeria and follow the German’s around…  And head for Asia as conditions permit

    Not like they have force to reinforce Africa based on the above 🙂



  • I might add that we have just thought about this and not actually used this strategy in a game, just made some calculations. It’s quite easy for UK to build enough units to be able to defend against this attack but the important thing is that they either spend all their money on defense or, if they want to build an IC, they need help from the US troops. UK building 5 inf +IC and US trannying their 1st round units would result in a slight favour for the allies. 10 inf would probably rend a greater allied advantage but that woud probably loose them India quite fast unless Russia rushes to their aid. But then they can’t push the German front as hard as they possibly would otherwise. I seriuosly doubt Russia becoming that kind of monster, especially if the invasion of UK succeeds.



  • You can’t build 10 inf with the UK - the deployment limit is 8 units. I would suggest buying 5 inf 3 tanks.

    As for the UK not building an IC in India - I don’t think it’s a wise idea anyways. I don’t do it anymore. It’s not worth it because the Japanese can run it over on round 3 quite easily unless you give a ton of Russian support, and you’re diverting very important money that you could be using against the Germans. Losing India isn’t a big deal; in fact I use troops from India on round 1 to counter the German incursion in Egypt. I let the Japanese walk into India on turn 1 most games; that’s literally how little I care about it (and I usually win as the Allies).



  • Oh yeah, forgot about the limit. Doesn’t leaving India give Japan quite a lot of room to move on towards Russia?



  • If your goal is to contain Germany first, then it’s better to counterattack Egypt on turn 1 so he doesn’t continue to expand into Africa and get stronger. It’s actually quite difficult for the Japanese to bring enough force to bear to kill Russia before the Allies kill Germany even with a first turn gain of 6 IPCs (3 in Indian, 2 in China, 1 in Sinkiang).

    Delaying the Japanese is not a bad idea in and of itself, but putting a complex in India is pretty bad idea since you’re giftwrapping the complex for him to use.

    You have about 5 rounds before you have to spend a penny on defense against Japan anyways, so make use of that time to route the Germans.

    Turn 1, the UK builds a complex in India as Japanese build 3 transports and 2 infantry. China is busted.

    Turn 2, the UK builds 3 tanks in India. The Japanese can build 2 bombers if they wish or whatever else they want/need, but then they bring about 6+ inf 1 arm 1 art to Manchuria. Froces from China go to Manchuria, now you have like 8+ infantry there.

    Turn 3, the UK builds 3 more tanks in India. The Japanese now attack with 10+ infantry (extras grabbed from islands), 1 tank, 1 artillery, 6 fighters, 1-3 bombers, and 2 battleship bombardments. Your UK forces lose badly with only about 5 inf 6 tank 1 fighter defending.

    Thanks for the complex and a ton of money wasted in defending India which could have been used against the Germans!

    The complex works ok versus lesser players because they really don’t understand how strong their Japanese forces are…but it’s not a good idea versus advanced players.



  • One other key thing to remember (and this was mentioned in another thread somewhere) is that UK NEEDS gound forces eventually anyway…  They have to have SOMETHING to transport to Europe in rounds 4+.  All this changes is WHEN those forces get built… early on to sit on defense duty until the fleet is built, or built after the fleet for immediate deployment to Europe.

    Still the same # of IPC’s that have to be spent, just a matter of which order you  spend them.

    Also, with an 8 build limit and with a pending Amphib landing and only 30 IPC’s…
    1 FIG, 5 INF, 1 ARM, spending all $30.

    Combine with initial forces of 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM, 2 FIG, 1 BOM, 1 AA; and add in US reinforce of 1 FIG, 1 ARM, and 1 INF, and of course 1 UK ARM from Canada…

    Germany now faces a total force of
    8 INF, 1 ART, 4 ARM, 4 FIG, 1 BOM, 1 AA
    That is a statistical average of 8 German units killed on the first UK defensive roll, PLUS AA fire (another German FIG on average).
    Germany has only 2 ground units left after the first wave of attack, their AF is now “trapped” in the amphib assault, 1 FIG already shot down…



  • @ncscswitch:

    One other key thing to remember (and this was mentioned in another thread somewhere) is that UK NEEDS gound forces eventually anyway…  They have to have SOMETHING to transport to Europe in rounds 4+.  All this changes is WHEN those forces get built… early on to sit on defense duty until the fleet is built, or built after the fleet for immediate deployment to Europe.

    Still the same # of IPC’s that have to be spent, just a matter of which order you  spend them.

    Also, with an 8 build limit and with a pending Amphib landing and only 30 IPC’s…
    1 FIG, 5 INF, 1 ARM, spending all $30.

    Combine with initial forces of 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM, 2 FIG, 1 BOM, 1 AA; and add in US reinforce of 1 FIG, 1 ARM, and 1 INF, and of course 1 UK ARM from Canada…

    Germany now faces a total force of
    8 INF, 1 ART, 4 ARM, 4 FIG, 1 BOM, 1 AA
    That is a statistical average of 8 German units killed on the first UK defensive roll, PLUS AA fire (another German FIG on average).
    Germany has only 2 ground units left after the first wave of attack, their AF is now “trapped” in the amphib assault, 1 FIG already shot down…

    Yes, that’s correct. If this situation occurs I would as the German player simply not attack. I now have a fleet that will, at the very least, threaten the UK fleet and since I’m not loosing any ground units by not attacking I’m not under very much pressure from Russia as they lack offensive units to begin with. UK can’t move their transports a lot without cover from their battleship and the Germany battleship may move into position to ambush any US trannies landing units in Africa. Even if I buy another destroyer or so to help I still have a lot of IPC to use for ground units in Europe. Placing air units in western seriously threatens both the UK and US fleet. UK will have a very hard time to aid in Africa. US can but with the  turn 1 units in UK you will not have that much to use for Africa.

    I hope you don’t see me as a stubborn idiot not being able to get other peoples opinions. I believe you are a lot more experienced players than me and this is just my way of getting some ideas of how you would handle certain situations.



  • Andreas, I hate to say this, but you are simply wrong about Russia.

    With a total Navy buy in G1, you are adding NO ground forces to face Russia.  In R1, Russia probably created teh “West Russia Stack”, a collection of about 8 INF, several ART and AMR, plus their 2 FIGS just behind them.  Plus they diud a build in R1.

    In R2, Russia os going to take Ukraine, re-take Belorussia, and reinforce Archangel to retake Karelia in R3… the same round that they take Balkans and Eastern.

    Go ahead… move the pieces around on the board.  Without a G1 buy to reinforce in Eastern/Balkans in G2, Russia WILL be at Germany’s doorstep after R3, with a steady column of INF and a few ART trailing along behind…

    Not to mention that Germany is now down about 10 IPC’s that Russia is also UP.

    To ignore any front at any time as Germany is to LOSE.
    The ART is to BALANCE your attacks/defenses… THAT is how you win.



  • @ncscswitch:

    Andreas, I hate to say this, but you are simply wrong about Russia.

    Hehe, that is why I am writing here. To get views since I lack the experience myself. Anyway, I think I have gotten the responds I have been looking for, now I’m gonna sit down with my board to calculate some of my own “Worst Case Scenarios” using this strategy. It’s not that I don’t believe you, it’s just that I want to know what actions you would take with each and every nation to respond to Germany.



  • @AndreasI:

    It’s not that I don’t believe you, it’s just that I want to know what actions you would take with each and every nation to respond to Germany.

    Let me offer you a resource on this site to assist you…

    Go to the Games thread and look up the Trihero vs NCSCSwitch, game 2.  This shows a PARTIAL Germany navy build, but demonstrates the West Russia Stack VERY well.  Bear in mind as you read this one that as Germany I DID build a lot of land units to counter Russia.  Then look at the Russia advances possible even WITH nearly 25 IPC’s dedicated to the Russian Front in G1…



  • actually having your transports sitting in the baltic is not completely useless you can use your trasports to each move 2 inf from germany to karelia, or norway (depending on situation) a turn which can speed up inf by 1 or 2 turns.  you can also somewhat use this strategy in the mediteranean (using bombardment as help!)…. but i wouldnt recomend the latter.  anyways, if you build a few more transports in the baltic you threaten to invade u.k. and speed up inf movement.

    Please dont call me dumb if I am wrong.



  • I’m not under very much pressure from Russia as they lack offensive units to begin with.

    Russia isn’t purchasing nor attacking correctly if you’re experiencing such low pressure. Whoever’s playing Russia should get off of their mass-8-infantry-every-round build and start adding artillery into the mix. A 4/3 ratio of inf/art is very nice. I really like to build 4 inf 3 art with Russia’s first 24 IPCs. It gives you defense very close to 8 infantry (essentially 7 infantry) but much better offense.

    On the first turn like we’ve been saying, attack West Russia en force with something on the order of at least 9 infantry + 2 art + 4 tanks. You will smoke the Germans there. You’ll end up with like a stack of 7 inf 2 art 4 tanks there, which is a hefty pushing force if left uncontested, not to mention you move 2 infantry to Caucasus and deploy 3 inf 1 art there, as well as move 4 inf into Moscow and deploy 1 inf 2 art there, so you have 5 inf 1 art reinforcing from Caucasus and 5 inf 2 art + 2 fighters in Moscow.

    Now, without building anything, it’s true Germany can field a pretty fearsome stack itself without building any more land units. You have 8 tanks left on the mainland, and something like 15 infantry to shuffle around. But you’re going to need to throw about 2 infantry to defend Western Europe, at least 1 infantry into Karelia to take it, and probably attack with 2 infantry + fighters to take Belorussia back, and leave 1 infantry in Ukraine, so that leaves you with 9 infantry and 8 tanks that can sit in Eastern Europe. This also means you have no troops to send to Africa on turn 2, so if you did want to send more troops there, you’d have 8 infantry and 7 tanks left in Eastern Europe.

    What happens in round 2 if you didn’t purchase any land units? Russia can come in super hard into Ukraine. If they send everything, they’ll have a force of 12 inf 4 art 4 tanks sitting there, and an AA gun. It’s far too tough to crack even if you sent everything at it during the German turn. And what’s even scarier, is that the Russian Ukraine stack can beat your Eastern Europe stack about 88% of the time if they send everything at it including their fighters next turn! Holy crap! And there’s streams of infantry/artillery coming in to back up any mishaps.

    Normally, you would have built more land units on turn 1, and send them to Eastern Europe to help out. Then, it wouldn’t really behoove the Russians to try to wipe out your stack, because you have a network of units to reinforce as well as counterattack. But without a first turn land purchase of some kind, you’re setting yourself up for some major Russian mayhem.

    The other Allies should be working around the clock to lay the smackdown on the Germans as well. The UK must start with a heavy defensive land purchase in the first round, but the attacks should still be a counter into Egypt and the usual kwangbang of the Japanese transport. The US should start with a build of even 2 carriers, or at the very least 1 carrier + some subs. The Baltic navy has to be dealt with and has to be guarded against as with 6 transports in it, it can be a very effective suicide fleet.

    On Round 2 while the Russians are seizing German territories with abandon, the UK and US should both land in Algeria with 2 tran of equipment each and start the grueling walk to purge Africa. The UK should use money to replenish troops being sent southwards and keep the vigil up so as not to get boarded, and with any additional cash build transports in SZ8 or SZ2, whichever is safer. The US should consider building about 3-4 fighters, as they will be needed to destroy the Baltic fleet. The US can split up their fleet to defend the Algerian seazone as well as SZ8 if the UK decided to build there.

    On Round 3, the Russians should easily be trading Eastern Europe/Balkans with the Germans, and now the Germans really have to start watching their west coast which has minimal defenses (couple of inf + fighters). The Germans are going to have trouble fronting enough troops to deal properly with the Russians as well as defend Western Europe with their first turn lack of ground units.

    The UK should build a ton of transports this turn and try to invade Norway through SZ6. If the German navy has moved up to SZ6, then you may wish to engage it and sink it. You are in good favor if you bring 3 fighters, 1 bomber, 3 transports, 1 battleship against 6 transports, 2 subs, and 1 destroyer. If you have less, then consider strafing the German fleet for one round to soften it up for the US. The US will follow up and either sink the Baltic fleet or protect SZ6 if the Baltic fleet decides to stay in the Baltic. The UK and US should be pushing slowly into Africa now as well, and depending on if the Germans are reinforcing Africa or not, it could be faster as the UK/US tanks blitz through. If Western Europe is looking weak (like only 2 inf and a bunch of fighters) then might as well go in and bust some fighters up. The US should start building transports and men to transport to Europe.

    On Round 4, the Russians should continue to keep up maniacal pressure on Germany. They should not be getting past Eastern Europe/Balkans at all, and at this point I’ve even before had a huge stack of units sitting in the Balkans ready to raid either the capital itself or Southern Europe. The Germans can break a stack in Balkans, but doing so would risk fighters as the Russian should be pushing up with their AA gun, not to mention lots of units are coming from behind to counterattack any small survivors from the German attack.

    The Germans may decide to try to attack the combined Allied fleet in SZ6 with their Baltic navy and airforce on Round 4, and it could be damaging, but you should have 2 fully loaded carriers, 1 battleship, 2 destroyers, and probably 9-10 transports there. A first turn combat would nearly decimate the entire German navy while costing the UK a few transports (which he prepared for by overbuying them in Round 3), and a second turn combat would not be advised for the Germans; while they could possibly claim a few more transports, they are certainly going to risk losing a lot of fighters as the navy shield has been used up and you’re still facing a very strong defensive fire coming from a number of capital ships.

    In any case, the UK should be boarding Europe somewhere with many forces in Round 4 unless the German suicide claimed all the transports. Buy any transports you need and fill up with ground troops. The US should clean up the Baltic fleet with about 6-7 fighters + 2 destroyers + 1 bomber.

    At this point Germany should be well on the road to doom. Africa will no longer be contested as every troop is needed to defend the capital and Southern Europe from the Russians, there is no more navy defending the Baltic, and the UK fleet is very well protected from any casual strafing and troops are going to be dropped all along the coastline. Russia now starts buying defensive troops against the Japanese, but the huge stacks in front of Germany remain and keep him contained.

    actually having your transports sitting in the baltic is not completely useless you can use your trasports to each move 2 inf from germany to karelia, or norway (depending on situation) a turn which can speed up inf by 1 or 2 turns.

    You’re very much right, having transports in either the med or the baltic is very nice to speed up land movement, but you have to consider if it’s costing you your ability to push on the land. And it’s not like Germany can afford to remain a naval nation; you must spend like half your income on messing with the Russians at least, yet the Americans and the UK can spend their entire incomes to blowing you out of the water.



  • I found your a… article a little pessimistic.

    But I was saying like only maybe buying 1-2 transports(not even nesecarily your first turn) which if spread out over 2 turns is less than 1/4 IPC, and I was mostly talking about the one you already have



  • The other day we played Axis & Allies, I was England, and choked 😮 when the German player captured London in the first row. Germany made Long Range Aircraft, and they used the transporters in Eastern Sea to put some infantery and tanks in there, and all aircraft. He destroyed England and had a tank on there, and some German fighters and the bomber survived. I tried to take it back with the tank in Canada, but I only destroyed his, and lost my own as well, and had no money for the turn. America took it back when it was their turn, but England was so weak that Germany could take almost all their land unit to Russia and crush them.



  • To Rasmus

    Yes that was a nice game Rasmus, just to bad i lost all my fighters in the attack, but it was fun. Kept England away from germany a couple of turns. Always looking forward to our next game. 🙂


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