Allied Strategy of Kill Turkey First


  • Has anyone else tried an Allied KTF Strategy? Since the Ottoman Turks, if left alone, can be deadly to the Allies, and with the western front getting bogged down, it seems to make sense to capture an enemy capital as quickly as possible. The 4 active Allied Powers can all get in on the strategy on the first round.
    It seems to be a winner, although the Turks can be pesky when cornered. Just seeing if this works for anyone else.


  • Yes it works. Going all-in India with UK is more or less the default way to kill the CP. Tbh with current rules the CP dont have a decent countermove.


  • T1  - France liberates Portugal and prepares to attack Spain.  UK - Navy in Atlantic (with at least two transports) or Troops in India.  US  -  Get some transports ready to go for turn two. Italy - With allied help, you must hold SZ 17.  Russia - Good luck because a kill Turkey first strategy means little help for the Russians.

    T2  - France attacks (Can-Opens) Spain, buys more transports in the Med, gets troops ready to board for the next leg of the trip. UK  -  Follow into Spain with your transports and begin the push with your Indian troops.  US -  Spain is now open for the free landing (ships near Gibraltar) Italy - Maintain control of SZ 17 and get what you can for an amphibious assault.  Russia -  Continue to bleed.

    T3  - France attacks (Can-Opens) Greece. This is why you need a few more transports to help in the initial assault and garrison for Greece. This will be your beach-head into southern Europe, only one zone away from Istanbul. UK - Back up Greece, continue push trough Mesopotamia. US - You may also land in Greece if it’s not contested, and may assault the Turks on T4.  Italy - Maintain a steady force to Grece.  Russia - Thanks for the distraction, hope you still have Moscow.

    T4  - You’ve now got the assault on Istanbul well under way. They make virtually no $ thanks to India. If you’ve kept a steady flow of French / UK / US / Italy troops on the way to Greece you will topple Constantinople in no time. The US (if Spain is Open) can shuck troops from US to Spain with one set of transports and on the next turn from Spain to Istanbul with another set of boats. I like to add a plane or two in the first or second purchase with the US. It can make a difference when Istanbul has to counterattack your allied forces. Good luck . . .

    Cheers,
    Starlight Sniper


  • Ehm. Firstly, you know US cant leave their seazone untill T4 right?

    Secondly why do wanna attack neutrals? Consider a country like Spain which worth 4 IPC. Attack will mobilze 8 units, 7 inf and 1 art; total worth 25 IPC. With the force you are taking about you will lose at least as many as you kill which means it will cost 25 IPC to take Spain. The payback time for this investment can easily be calculated: 25(cost)/4(worth) = 6.25, ie you wont get back your investment back untill 6 turns later, which according to my math will be sometime in  turn 8-9.

    Same math can be used for greece which is an equally bad investment.

    If you are serios with kill turky first, then kill turky first, ie attack them (not neutrals) 😃


  • For Oddbjoern  -  I don’t have the 1914 rule book in front of me as it’s my friends game and not mine. I thought the rule for US being stuck in their “coastal patrol zone” was for another version of the game (perhaps the global edition ; Pacific / Europe).
    My understanding was that they couldn’t land in an enemy/contested territory but were free to move out of America.

    Spain  - Freeing up this important zone allows UK / US troops to land there with one set of transports and then get picked up by another set of Med. transports. To me this seems like the ideal staging ground for the Allies to have a easy sea route to Europe or anywhere in the Med. I understand the cost/worth equation but think of it this way . . . .    to the Axis Powers, there is yet another enemy to deal with who can mobilize his force in a number of good locations (Egypt, Greece, Rome, Albania, Piedmont or . . . .  5 of the 6 starting Turkish Zones). So killing the Ottomans first may require  the Allies to take a few pieces of prime real-estate first.

    Greece  -  The appeal of this zone to me is that it’s rarely attacked by the Turks (in our games) and has that sneaky little cleft that touches Constantinople. The other reason is that’s it’s quickly re-enforceable (via SZ 17) for Italy, France and even UK/US forces (see Spain Can-Opener). Once you’re there… it’s difficult for an entrenched Turkish force to leave the capital with so many transports lurking in the Med.

    They are far flung stategies for a victory, and sometimesproduce disastrous results.

    Why Attack Neutrals -   For the US, money is so hard to come by in this game. The closest zone is Kiel or somewhere in the Eastern Med. I’ve worked out a way to get the US a lot of cash on T4 (providing they can move out of their “coastal patrol zone”). By T6 they are making over 33 $ per turn (if all goes well). This is, of course, a different start. than a KT(urkey)F method. I’m looking at a way to make them (US) more of a force rather than just a transport here and there. They could be pumping some huge numbers of units into Europe Via the 1 move transport to Spain.

    I hope you enjoy reading my rebuttal. I look forward to possibly reading your comments. Till next time,

    Cheers,
    Starlight Sniper


  • This still dont make sense 😃

    Firstly US cant move out of sz1 untill T4.

    Secondly instead of SPAIN french marocco can be used as a stageingpoint for transports. This will also mean french/portogese troops can move into eqypt or albania T2 instead of fighting with Spain (who wont be beaten untill T3 at the earliest).
    Same goes for greece, it gives you nothing you dont already have.

    There is a chessterm called tempo which can be used to descibe why attacking neutrals is bad. You lose time and initiative. A decent axisplayer will have killed russia by T4-5 and have started putting pressure on Italy by T4. The Allies in a KTF must but pressure on Turky T2, not T4-5 and should have them close to beat by T6-7, so the allies can counter the axis western attack and not still have to put troops in India at that point.


  • Just to note, the US can move ships out of SZ1 before it’s at war, but it can’t load transports until it’s at war.

    However, I think attacking Spain with only the US (8 inf 5 art on round 4) is generally a good idea. France diverting enough troops to get decent ratios and prevent the Spaniards from counterattacking will mean much less force on the German front. If Italy or France is about to crumble, then you would skip it of course. But it’s very unlikely that the 5 or so extra troops from not attacking Spain will accelerate the fall of the Central Powers that much. Unless the dice go terribly, (it does happen) Spain will pay for itself in about 4-5 turns, and that’s when you’d be making headway anyway.


  • Again, I dont understand why you wanna hit Spain with 8 inf and 5 art when you can use them to hit Turky r6?

    Consider the R4 attack on Spain. 8 inf/5 art vs 7 inf/1art. You will hit (103 + 32)/6 = 6 units and Spain will hit 83/6 = 4 unis. R5 attack: 4inf/5art vs 1inf/1art; Hit: 4,5 (Spain dead), Lose: 1. Which means at the end of R5, US will have 3 inf/5 art in Spain and by R6 could place 4 extra IPC in US.
    Total lose in IPC: 5
    3 = 15 IPC, payback time: 15/4 = 4 turns to break even (by T9).

    Im sorry but this a really poor strat as instead of bleeding Turky for IPC (much better since netwin is twice, since they lose IPC and you gain).


  • The only neutrals that should be attacked in A&A1914 are Persia and Switzerland.


  • Agreed.


  • I have to disagree with your moves, Starlight Sniper.
    Totally agree with Oddbjoern. Tempo is overlooked by so many players.
    As a strategy, can KTF always be used? That is my main question. I am thinking that if I have a CP opponent who tries KFF (Kill France First), that KTF would be the best counterstrategy. I am having difficulty making KTF work with a “CP all-out attack on Russia” or KRF.
    Second Point: As to attacking Neutrals, I have moved to a completely No Attacking Neutrals Strategy, regardless of which side I am playing. Oddbjoern’s logic is correct. I don’t even attack Switzerland or Persia. They can both be bypassed (2 British transports from India plus the 2-space range of Fighters).


  • @Oddbjoern:

    Again, I dont understand why you wanna hit Spain with 8 inf and 5 art when you can use them to hit Turky r6?

    Consider the R4 attack on Spain. 8 inf/5 art vs 7 inf/1art. You will hit (103 + 32)/6 = 6 units and Spain will hit 83/6 = 4 unis. R5 attack: 4inf/5art vs 1inf/1art; Hit: 4,5 (Spain dead), Lose: 1. Which means at the end of R5, US will have 3 inf/5 art in Spain and by R6 could place 4 extra IPC in US.
    Total lose in IPC: 5
    3 = 15 IPC, payback time: 15/4 = 4 turns to break even (by T9).

    Im sorry but this a really poor strat as instead of bleeding Turky for IPC (much better since netwin is twice, since they lose IPC and you gain).

    If Britain is doing its job by building everything in India, chances are the Ottomans will have to fall back to Constantinople soon anyway and your Americans might just force them back 1 turn early. Also, by just moving all your Americans forward US5, you’ll need to build up a bunch more transports just to get guys across. If you attack Spain, you can still move 6 or guys on 3 transports into Italy or Egypt or something, leaving a few guys behind to clean up with another transport coming across. The other 4 transports will go back to the US coast to pick up your US5 build That will put you at 24 income, enough to let you shuck 6 ground every turn with some extra money to gradually push it up to 8.

    @ColonelKurtz:

    As a strategy, can KTF always be used? That is my main question. I am thinking that if I have a CP opponent who tries KFF (Kill France First), that KTF would be the best counterstrategy. I am having difficulty making KTF work with a “CP all-out attack on Russia” or KRF.
    Second Point: As to attacking Neutrals, I have moved to a completely No Attacking Neutrals Strategy, regardless of which side I am playing. Oddbjoern’s logic is correct. I don’t even attack Switzerland or Persia. They can both be bypassed (2 British transports from India plus the 2-space range of Fighters).

    Yes, KTF can (and should) always be used. Although it’s not much of a Kill Turkey First; Britain should just spend all its money in India every turn, very few exceptions. The other allies have plenty of navy to clean up the German fleet unless they got really lucky, in which case you might need a British ship. Also you can build a transport or two once the German fleet is gone at Round 4 or 5, when you’ve got Britain solidly in Mesopotamia. The only power you have to oppose the Ottomans is Britain, and the only place for Britain to gain money (without interfering with an ally) is Turkey. There’s just no point in spending your money anywhere else unless France is in dire need of help, in which case Russia can help against the Ottos. If Russia plays its cards right, the best the CPs can do is have Austria get a not-too-terrible casualty ratio on a Round 5 Revolution.

    Britain definitely needs Persia though, it pays itself back by Round 4 and four ground/turn will never kick the Ottomans out of Mesopotamia. Most other neutrals you should pass on though.


  • There seems to be a bit of hostility for a bunch of people trying to share ideas about a board game.
    My idea was to get France/UK to do most of the “Can-Opening” for Spain and Greece (since the US can’t land on contested/CP territories till T4) and the US would just get a free landing there on their way to Constantinople. I never intended for the Americans to get bogged down fighting for a few dollars, but to open up those zones for quick deployment into the Med. Now. . .  a good point was made that Spanish Morocco can be used to the same effect as Spain, which is true. In future games I will consider Spanish Morocco as a viable alternative. Spain, however, is on the European Continent and gets your US troops in Europe on T2 (giving Paris or Rome a viable back up and the CP a new European Threat).

    My buddies and I have racked up well over 300 games together (various editions, several years) and we like to try to spice up the games by trying new stategies, tactics, techniques and ideas. They don’t always work of course and at the end of the night, win or lose, we have a blast. These A&A games and others like it have made our lives more enjoyable and brought us closer together as friends. I hope it’s done the same for all of you out there.

    Cheers,
    Starlight Sniper


  • Sorry if you misunderstand my intent Sniper, was trying to be helpfull rather than hostile.

    Different Strats
    Sadly in this game there isent much you can do in terms of diffrent strats. KFT for allies is always optimal and all out attack on Russia is optimal and crucial for Axis (need to be killed by T5), where no troops bought in T2 and forward never should need to be sent east. The trick in this game is to make your opponent have to spend a little more than he wants on the “wrong” arena. For britain the “wrong arena” is navy and troops into France since its divert from the main objective, Turky. Germany usually do this by putting clever pressure on France during the game and attacking the royal navy R1. By attacking weird neutrals (Spain, Sweden etc) you are accually doing your opponent a huge favor as he dont even need to use pressure to divert your forces from the objective 😃

    Persia
    This is a no brainer and needs to be attacked B1. Consider the maths 6inf/2 art means you will hit 3,33 (with luck you kill him and with unluck he will have 1 units left) and you will lose 2 units (6IPC). As you need to transport more than 4 untis each turn (rather more like 😎 you will need 1 och 2 transports, 6-12 IPC. This means even with just 1 transport buy its the same as your loses in Persia which means the IPC-value of the territory is a netwin.

    Time
    This game is a race and if you can do one of your main objectives one turn early its a huge win.


  • To Oddbjoern: Have you tried (as Britain) using the 2 available transports plus fighters (which jump to Mesopotamia from India) to get 6 units into the Turkey arena every turn? The advantage is that if Turkey fully counterattacks towards India, Persia is a lifesaving buffer.
    I am also liking a split-arena strategy for Britain of KTF and reinforcing Russia through the Karelia naval route. This goes against the principle of concentration, but saving Russia is a great strategic advantage.


  • For Oddbjoern  - No worries, my skin is thick like the Tiger Tank. I’m glad we’re able to get some good ideas generated out of these discussions. I like your idea of forcing your opponent to spend money in the “wrong area”.
    I don’t think I’ve ever met and A&A player who thinks attacking Neutrals is a good idea, lol.

    For ColonelKurtz  -  Leaving Persia as a final defensive line for India is interesting. If you think you can get enough manpower shipped across on the small navy you have then more power to you. But think of this . .  if Turkey starts making the moves towards India, how are you going to suddenly get all your troops across the Persia line ?? Wouldn’t you have to go through the line ??

    Cheers,
    Starlight Sniper


  • Regarding Persia
    If Britain wants to go all-in india as they should for KTF, turky dont stand a chance. Its a matter of Britain being able to outspend Turky almost 2:1. In this strat Britain will need more then just 4 units + 1 plan per turn also, which means atleast 3 transports (its very likely only 1 plan will be needed for the britains as Turky are wish to mostly buy inf).

    Supporting Russia

    This is not easy as Britain as the help is likely to come late as AH/G will reach Moscow by T4. Poitn being if AH/G goes all-out Russia, Britain cant really hinder it (curious if anyone figures out a way to do this though). Also in doing this Turky will have time to increase their IPC share, making the KTF a lot harder.


  • India doesn’t have a naval base, so unless you’re suggesting Britain try to build more transports from Wales and sail them all the way to India, you’re gonna have to go through Persia. Although attacking attacking Persia B1 might not be the best option; you’re forgoing killing Trans-Jordan without counter threat, and you’re quite likely to not take it until Round 2 anyway, when you could’ve smashed it with your 9-10 built guys.


  • Damn I dident accually think of that in India, I was under the assumption that India could build boats, but I stand corrected. Never built a boat there though 😃
    I agree that a B2 Persia attack is better idea and that you focus on TJ B1.

    How do you feel about, when to activate Arabia, b1 or b2? if you activate it b1 you can only support the TJ attack with 2 india-units.


  • Starlight Sniper: If Turkey attacks neutral Persia, Brits gain time as well as 4 free units. The Brits do not need to transport any units to India since they build there.
    Oddbjoern: As Britain, I use the transport in SZ 19 to come through the Suez Canal, picking up the Inf in Anglo-Egypt Sudan, to mobilize Arabia on B1.
    Here is what has been happening to me playing Britain: Even with help from Russia on R1 into Mesopotamia, France and Italy bringing units across the Med Sea reinforcing attacks on Smyrna, all British Egypt units attacking TranJordan, good builds in India, the Brits are not able to finish the job on Turkey. Turkey can build a fortress of units in Constantinople, and they seem to barely tip the balance with victory when the Allies assault Constantinople. I will admit that I haven’t built in India with 100% of Britain’s income, but that is because Germany has built Battleships and the Brits absolutely have to counter that threat. British reinforcement of Russia by Round 3 has the effect of keeping Russia alive; with Russia alive the CP can’t turn to the west.
    If you all are saying “ignore everything else as Britain, attack Persia, KTF with Britain,” there is a high risk of failure with that strategy. But I will try it.


  • Thats true, with against a good Turkish player you wont even with the french portguise troops helping in r3 and US aiding in r6, britain wont kill Turky untill r9-r10. However Britain doesent not need to buy units in India for more than 6 rounds after that he can begin helping France full time.

    As Ive stated before this game tends to become a race between AH and Britain, where AH needs to kill Italy and Britain needs to kill Turky.

    Things that make and break either way tends to be small things. Tricking the US/Britain into buying naval protection the atlantic. If you can make the US buy a BS, thats the same as instantly killing 3 inf.


  • For ColonelKurtz  - I am aware of India’s purchasing ability. How “historically accurate” is this ability ??? `
      -  If attacked, Persia places 3Inf + 1Art.
      -  I like your idea of attacking Trans Jordan on UK1. If you could combine  - 
    -  A) Removing Trans Jordan from Turkey
    -  B) Activating Arabia 
    -    C) Major India Purchase
    -    D) Russia into Mesopotamia
    -      E) France/Italy into Smyrna/Trans Jordan / Ankara / Mesopotamia
    -      F) US on the way for T4 Assault on Istanbul
      you would have a serious threat for Istanbul. If you can combine this with my earlier “Can Opener” move, Turkey may go the way of the Dinosaur.  I predict that if this strategy were employed by the Allies, A/H would maneuver major troops to Istanbul (4 spaces away) as a Garrison force. But it may be too little too late. If Britain purchased any navy/transports on T1 our of Wales they could make it to the fight on T4. I’m surprised to hear that (in your games) with all the allied help the Entente were not able to subdue the weak sister of the group (CP).  Re: Germany navy purchases . .  In my humble opinion, if you place all your units in India, no matter what Germany does they won’t have a force strong enough to take London by at least T4. I tend to ignore any German navy purchases when I’m going KT(urkey)F . It seems the German player realizes he’s wasting money and stops. Good luck in the Dardanelles.

    Cheers,
    Starlight Sniper


  • Starlight Sniper, per the official errata for Axis and Allies 1914:

    “While it remains neutral, the United States is not considered to be either friend or enemy to any other power, and it may not move land or air units out of the United States of America (including onto transports) or attack Central Powers sea units.”

    Since it is very unwise for Germany to bring the US into the war early (unless you are playing with house ruled unrestricted submarine warfare rules), the US will not be in the war until its 4th turn. Per the quote above, the US cannot load transports until its 4th turn (or whenever it can declare war) so the US cannot reach Istanbul with loaded transports until US turn 6 in pretty much every game.

    On the bright side, the US is completely unnecessary in a KTF strategy. The British should just spend all of their income in India (except maybe a transport or 2 in the Atlantic). If they do this they will have the Ottomans turtled in Istanbul by turn 7 or so and can begin the assault sometime around turn 8-9. I doubt that the US troops could do very much to the Ottomans other than maybe force them back to Constantinople a turn earlier.

    ColonelKurtz: Using just the OOB rules and the official FAQ, my experience has been that a full KTF with Britain is the simplest path to a win for the Entente. It is my opinion that the simplest way to balance the game (without any really crazy rule changes) is to find a way of forcing the UK to spend in the Atlantic rather than 100% in India.


  • My pals and I simply play with the rule books provided in the boxes. Next Satuday night I’ll read the book again and see what the final word is on loading US transports before turn 4. I am aware of the erratas, bidding, house rules, tournament rules etc etc etc . . . etc . .  .    etc. .
    It seems like in addition to a separate forum for each version of the game, there needs to be an additional option for what rules are being used. LOL, Imagine monopoly with this many rule problems, LOL.

    Cheers,
    Starlight Sniper


  • Your group can play however they want, but the errata are technically official rule changes/clarifications since Wizards of the Coast is not gonna print out a new rulebook and mail a copy to everyone who purchased the game. The actual rulebook is super vague when it comes to America and doesn’t state much preventing them from taking most actions.

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