That’s exectly what disussion should be about.
And this site certainly helped me to get better.
UK invasion…a not-so-insane strategy
This strategy is not submitted as a “win quick” scheme. Invading Russia from 2 sides is still the most sound Axis strategy. However, if your opponents have “seen it all” this one might surprise them enough, while still being conservative enough it just MIGHT win you the game. I present this strategy for discussion.
Why can’t the UK be invaded? 3 basic reasons:
1.) Germany is closest to UK. Therefore Germany must bear the brunt of any assault.
2.) UK has the HUGE advantage of not having to defend itself against an enormous superpower right at it’s very gates (i.e. as Germany does).
3.) Any buildup against UK can be seen a mile off and UK can easily respond by building INF and Naval units, and by sinking any Transports (TR) put in the waters nearby.
Nothing can be done about the first 2 points. But what about the 3rd? What if UK were so economically weakened they COULD NOT respond to the threat? What if the Axis could seize command of the Atlantic from the Western Allies just long enough to launch an all-out strike at this critical moment? I propose to try…
First thing, the Axis agree to launch all-out economic warfare on the UK. Germany pretty much moves as normal, but with a special emphasis on protecting her fleet. Japan buys 1 TR, 1 FGTR saves the rest. She opens the assault by invading Australia (!) with 1 INF from Philippines, 1 INF from Borneo, 1 BB and Carrier (CV) from Carolines and the Carolines FGTR. This pits 2 INF 1 FGTR + 1 BB 1st shot vs. 2 INF.You will probably take it with 1 INF. China is next hit with 2 INF from Manchuria, 1INF from Kwangtung, 1 FGTR @ from Manchuria and F.Indochina/Burma, the BMR and 1 FGTR from Japan. You will win (probably w/ 2 Inf, if in doubt lose a FGTR–trust me, you have so far!). Ferry over 1 INF from Wake Isl. and land it and 1 INF from Japan to Manchuria, move 1 INF from Kwangtung to F.I.Burma. Land 2 FGTR in Manchuria, 1 in Burma, beef it with the 1 from Philippines. Land the BMR in Manchuria. Place your troops, collect your 29 IPC’s: you now have 34.
USA now has her entire fleet, but may not know how to use it (they are often surprised by the “no-Hawaii” 1st attack). If they attack Australia SZ they will lose. If they attack Sea of Japan, they will win, but the payback (w/ FGTR’s) will be a b***h. Plus, they will still leave a powerful Japanese fleet in the water afterward. If they attempt to move aggressively against an island, they will be caught in a pincers and destroyed. Most likely they will retreat to West USA to beef up for a major attack. Watch them closely.
Next turn Germany should place a TR and coninue to maintain her precious FGTR force. Do damage to the Allies while protecting your FGTRs. Do not overextend yourself in USSR–remember you are holding out for the decision point.
Turn 2 the Japanese should load 1 INF from Australia (if you have 2) and/or 1 from East Indies and join in an attack on India with all available forces. The Allies will have had to be pretty sharp on Round 1 to avoid losing this one-if they moved INF to Africa they will almost certainly lose. You are hitting them with 5 INF (hopefully), 5 FGTR and a BB’s 1st shot (unless they have a TR there). Use the BMR to Strategic Bomb (SB) USSR and fly over on NonCom to West Europe. You should sieze India with 2 INF. Move 2 INF from China to Burma, 2 INF from Manchuria to China, and land 2 INF, 1 ARM from Japan if possible. If USA hasn’t done anything foolish buy 1 CV, 4 INF and place them.
YOU HAVE ARRIVED AT THE DECISION POINT!–up till the end of T2 you have had the option of bailing out to a more conventional strategy with little loss should the Allies look wise (or crazy). From here on in it will be harder and harder to extract yourself should the going get rough. May fortune favor the brave!
On T3 joint SBing of UK commences and Japan siezes the Suez Canal (if Germany hasn’t been able to). Few players leave the UK INF in Syria-Iraq for long, so you will probably be able to sail through the canal on NonCom (don’t lose the TR!). If the Allies haven’t done you the favor, place an IC on India when possible, otherwise Manchuria is OK for now. In Asia, opportunism is the watchword–do damage, don’t take too many risks. Germany should build a couple TR and FGTRs/BMR’s if you need them. By now Africa should be totally controlled by Germany/Japan, USSR should be contained (not necessarily neutralized) and the UK fleet limited in size (again not necessarily neutralized). By my count UK now is making only 13(!) IPC’s per turn, and with a little luck, you can SB about 7 of them–thus yielding a total per turn income of 6 IPC’s! Another BMR could be even more crippling, if its not shot down. The longer this goes on the weaker UK becomes, but the stronger the resistance from the other Allies as well–don’t dally! Move the combined fleet to Western Mediterranean (take Gibraltar to prevent land-based airstrikes) When the time is right, launch a spoiling Japanese strike against the North Sea and the Island itself, to soften resistance and gain control of the SZ, and then launch an overwhelming attack with German INF and ground-based aircraft (also land a couple of planes on the Japanese Carrier if possible). Now the strategic situation is totally new–Axis hasn’t gained many “bonus” IPC’s from ruined Britain, but the only remaining threat from the Allies is from USA and Russia–and in a way, they are both surrounded! Just hope Germany hasn’t been conquered!
The key is that by the time you tip your hand, UK should be too poor to do anything about it. Hopefully you will be able to pull out of the move if things go poorly, but admittedly the final invasion is still an all-or-nothing gamble. Also you must rely on the USA player not being slick enough to bring his weight to bear too quickly: If he switches his fleet to the Atlantic on round 3, all bets are off and the game will become a confusing jumble! Still, it should make things pretty interesting and that is the point, right?
Please, please post comments. Improve my strategy or blow me out of the water!
[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-02-04 22:39 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-03-23 16:01 ]
I can’t see how this can work using the standard rules. (either 2nd or 3rd edition).
After the first round the german navy will be
almost completely wiped out, maybe you will
still have some of your ships in the Med.
But remember that bombers based in britain can attack anywhere in the Med if I remember correctly.
If I am playing the US in a situation like
this I will try and take back/help defend africa. And destroying the german navy is
always a priority, if the german wants to
take it the allied navy force him to risk
In your strategy above you do very little
damage to Russia. If Russia isn’t under a
serious threat they can help defend Great Britian with their Fighters, or send more
troops towards Japan.
I assume you use this strategy with the
Russia Restricted option ? (russia can’t attack on turn 1).
Nope: the plan doesn’t require that Russia be restricted (the only “special rule” my group usually plays with is “submarine submerging”). It doesn’t even require that the Germany player do anything unusual other than try to prevent their fleet from being detroyed and to take Africa (2 things they usually try to do anyway). If your fleet does get destroyed, then you can still wait for the Japanese fleet to arrive and then build your transports, although its better to build them piecemeal if possible: also the Japanese will help you take Africa–you must both be working together extremely closely for the plan to work at all. If it doesn’t look like the Allies are playing along you can always pull out of the strategy until the end of turn 2–hell, if the USSR plays super-aggressive on T1 (takes Ukraine or East Europe; gets lucky in the Far East) you shouldn’t even try in the 1st place.
About UK/USA BMRs: while a BMR from UK can indeed make it anywhere in the Med (unless you start taking over large parts of Afica), it might NOT be worth it to them to try. Say you’ve cleared the Med and destroyed their N. Sea fleet round 1: they can indeed sink your TR w/ a BMR but it will in turn be destroyed by your BB. Then no one can get at it till T2 when UK/USA can attempt the same thing: In both cases you’ve used 2 BMRS just to prevent any more troops arriving in Africa where there could already concievably be enough for victory anyway. If they are really coming at you hard, consider keeping your fleet in the Eastern Med and placing your South Europe AA gun in Eastern Europe (if you know you can hold it). Now a UK BMR has to run through flak to hit your TR(s), and any Allied planes in Karelia–well, they’ll kill you, but at least they aren’t in UK! It would be real sweet of the USSR player to help you as UK by landing his precious fighters in UK, but let’s be realistic–1st he’d have to suggest you fly your own FGTRs in Karelia out and if you had none there to begin with I don’t think he’d help you at all unless it was looking REAL BAD. Remember USSR generally NEEDS those FGTR’s to launch attacks. This is getting hella long so I’ll shut up !
Thanks for the comment! Keep 'em comin!
[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-02-05 09:47 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-02-05 09:49 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-02-05 09:58 ]
Mr Ghoul last edited by
Do do do do tha bumpty bump
Do do do tha bumpty bump…
Interesting Strategy that might work.
My only worry would be that on UKT1 an AC is purchased and USA lands 2 FGT’s on it. Thus, with UK prviding protection in the Atlantic, USA pumps TRN’s into UK SZ. As you haven’t done “pearl Harbour”, by UST3 the US fleet is in the UK SZ as well. When the Jap fleet gets there you’ll be facing 1 BB (US), 1 AC (US), 1 AC (UK) at least as captial ships, add in say 1 TRN (RUS), 1 SUB (RUS), and maybe 3 TRN (UK) and 5 TRN (US) which I find average for the end of US T3 in UK SZ, we have a total of 3 capital ships, and 10 fodders. Note I haven’t included FGT’s in this summation, of which there can be a total of 4 on the fleet.
Thus, the japanese fleet of 2 BB, 1 AC, 1? TRN + say the maximum 5 FGT’s and 1 BMB will only score evens (ie 50% win) against the fleet. This is with no FGT’s landed on the carriers.
If I were the allies I think I would probably see this attack coming, and keep 4 FGT’s on the fleet, making the attack unlikely to succeed.
However, if you count up the IPC’s axis would control:
Europe = 30 - 2 NOR, - 3 UKR = 25
Africa = 12 (if madagascar taken as well)
Japan = 25
Aquisitions in Asia: 19 (all territories to Moscow)
Aquisitions in the Pacific: 2(Australia)
Total = 83
Now, wouldn’t that japanese fleet be better used taking and holding NZ or Hawaii (or both) and claiming a M84 victory?
Yes, I think that if Japan does not Pearl Harbor in T1, America will move its fleet to the Atlantic. THis will make things very tough for the Axis Players. Also no that you mention it, I don’t think that a Economic Victory could be the way to go.
Mr Ghoul last edited by
Wow Sud, Good
He’s basically said it all, including reciting about 10 pages of the dictionary. You don’t account for America in your strategy, including the 1 Transport, 1 Battleship, 1 Sub, 1 AC, and 1 Fighter which will now be in the Atlantic.
Your also using ICs to get troops into Asia, and pretty much discounting it. This is a huge boost to russia. Russia will be beating down on the German lines, probably sitting in Eastern Europe. Africa will die fast, as any smart player would never let the German Med fleet live.
“History is just a set of lies agreed upon”
- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte
“Two roads diverged in a wood, and I, I took the one less traveled by. And that has made all the difference”
- Robert Frost
[ This Message was edited by: Yanny on 2002-03-21 19:28 ]
Nice post SUD.
Congratson finally registering
Really interesting post.
I agree on the bidding thing, we’ve just started playing with bids, after a year off non-axis victories. only a few due to lucky dice and coincidences.
SUD: I don’t think your critique is overly harsh–just realistic. You make good points. Here are my answers to your questions:
1.) I can’t.
2.) UK and USA can do that, but the German and Japanese fleets could combine by T3, so their planes (and TRs) could be facing a combined fleet by G4. I would not build SUBs as Germany because the point is the invasion of UK, therefore I would have a couple of TRs to throw their measly “1” counterrattacks in at the planes. And as stated its not total loss if the German fleet IS destroyed–its just a major setback until the Japanese fleet can come in to protect a new build. If Germany thinks UK will attack his fleet, and sink it, he shouldn’t be building ships at all until the Japanese arrive.
As for moving the fleet, the strategy depends on a main deployment of USA forces in the Pacific; pure and simple. The Japanese and Germans can deal with the UK in the Atlantic, but if the Americans shuttle their entire fleet East, that will be a problem…that is where swiftness of maneuver comes in. The attack on UK must come quickly enough that USA only sees it happening when its too late. The attack is a gamble because it can pretty much only happen once–the USA will probably come in to help their next move.
3.) Of course I can do nothing. My large numbers of German TRs and INF can help, but basically if its Africa USA is determined to have, its theirs (at least until the Japs conquer Asia) But check this out:
In your argument you have done a very good job of preventing an Axis invasion of UK from occurring. But you have utilized ABSOLUTELY OVERWHELMING force (transferred the entire USA fleet to the Atlantic, abandoned India and spent UK’s money on an CV and fleet, and amassed a HUGE assault force for Africa and /or Western Europe) to accomplish this. I can only surmise you deployed your forces thus because you KNEW the Japanese were going to transfer 1/2 their fleet to the Mediterranean. Look at the Axis deployment T1. Why would the USA player, facing a totally undamaged Japanese fleet in the Pacific, simply ignore them and transfer their whole fleet to face Germany–which as you have pointed out has virtually NO fleet at all!? Especially when the UK has already built a CV (and presumably TRs and FTRs) at the expense of an Indian IC.
Also, I don’t see why its so impossible for Japan to make any headway against USSR in this strategy. The situation is basically the same as “normal” (that is per “Pearl Harbor T1”) for Japan except that the USA fleet remains intact and that Japan must build a CV to regain parity in Pacific fleet units. T3 Japan can slap down an IC in Manchuria or India and just start beating on USSR as “usual”. And one could argue that by moving the entire US fleet to the Atlantic (where I submit they are doing no good in a normal game), you have actually helped the Japanese by removing all threat against them in the Pacific and allowing them to concentrate fully on helping Germany (and picking on USSR).
My point is simply this–this strategy is not one to be used on someone who sees it coming. You have fully illustrated this point in your reply. However, if USA (and UK) moved in the manner you described T1, I would recommend to the Axis to “bail out” of the maneuver and head straight for USSR little the worse for wear–its obvious the Allies have anticipated (wink, wink) the whole strategy…
On a side note: No–my buddies and I do not yet play using bidding rules. Nor do we use Russia Restricted. And yet our games have not stagnated into endless repetition where the same tired strategies are used over and over again. Possibly this is because we are inexperienced newbies… I prefer to think we are just “imaginative”…
[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-03-22 18:34 ]
As Germany have you tried building and IC in Western Europe? That would allow you to build directly into the English Channel assuming you’re playing with Second Edition (?) where you can’t blockade port cities. However, that is 15 IPCs, so it might be too much of a burden. Just my thoughts.
SUD: On G2 why didn’t the Germans attack the AC, 2ftrs, and transport with its 4 planes and a bomber. This seems like the logical move to me. Waiting to G4 when the whole fleet is together to take action makes no sense. Plus why did you have germany buy 2 subs?
Overall I think Ozone’s strategy would make more sense to hit Hawaii and maybe Mexico on the way though the panama canal to the atlantic; killing the entire US fleet if possible.
If the UK builds an AC on UK1 rather than a IC in India, then operation Sea Lion has no chance because all UK production will come out of the UK.
If the UK builds an IC in India, however, then the UK must spend money to protect that investment which mean a weaker UK mainland. Also I think the mere threat of a UK invasion is as valuable as the invasion itself since it forces the UK player to buy and place units in the UK rather than building in India or shipping stuff off to Karelia where the battles are really taking place.
Panama might be a reanonable target
I agree. The US Fleet must be taken out in T1. It’ll prove too much of a thorn otherwise.
Something to consider:
A Japanese airforce stationed in Alaska can hit the UK seazone and land in Western Europe. I think this is a good way to smackdown a British/US fleet and provide extra defense for Germany to boot.
Wow I never thought of that. The only problem is that it the Zeros can only go as far as the English Channel. It takes 5 movements in order to reach Western Europe. However it does give Japan the element of surprise when making a mad dash to the Atlantic supported by CVs.
Actually, Western Canada is connected to the Seazone above Eastern Canada. Its mentioned in the rules addendum for 2nd Edition at least. That makes it 4 spaces from Alaska to Western Europe. So let’s go kick some Allied butt!
No, the rules state that you can land/pickup troops from the Eastern Canada Seazone. This does not mean you can cross from Alaska to Eastern Canada.
Yanny, you don’t need to go from Alaska to the East Canada SeaZone for this trick to work. The planes start in Alaska and then move: Western Canada->East Canada SZ (Hudson Bay?) -> UK SZ (Attack) -> Western Europe = 4 spaces.
Unfortunately, this only works in the 2nd edition rules. The 3rd edition rules say that Western canada is no longer connected to the Easy Canada SZ. Bummer. Of course that jkust means Japan has to base its airforce in Western Canada, which is certainly doable, and would be highly entertaining.
Plus an invasion by the Japanese onto American soil would take some of America’s attention from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
I think the idea of landing Japanese planes on Western Canada to make an attack on UK is GREAT if you can pull it off! I never thought of that. Also moving the Japanese fleet through Panama is a good idea, but I would be afraid of too much exposure to Allied airstrikes along the way–I’d prefer going thru Suez to link up because of this.
Any ships the UK or USA place in the Atlantic should be destroyed if at all possible before the invasion begins. To a certain extent, the more of UKs dwindling resources she spends on ships is actually the better for the Axis–after T3, UKs IPC income should be small enough that capital ships are difficult to impossible to purchase, and each TR represents 3 INF UK cannot build…Germany should be building as many FTRs as she can reasonably do so so as to build up for the major attack: don’t forget to hold off USSR, though!
Japan could conceivably launch an attack on Hawaiian Islands SZ using only 3 FTRs a BMR and the SUB T1 with NO capital ships. Heavy losses in FTRs, but your fleet remains intact (and isn’t in a position to be countered next turn) and that is very important for the strategy. Just state your plan to move the CV in the Carolines to p/u surviving planes in a SZ adjacent to Hawaiian Islands SZ–if 2 FTRs are destroyed you aren’t even obligated to move it there on Non Combat at all!
Or just try moving the entire Japanese fleet (instead of just 1/2) to the Med thru the Atlantic. This way you can crush the US fleet (since everyone is so married to this plan) and you are HEAVILY superior in the Atlantic now. I just don’t like risking the whole fleet this way–I think Japan should at least retain some kind of battle fleet in the Pacific, but I may be just too conservative…
SUD, how do you type so much?
I dont understand, are you planning on moving naval ships from Alaska to West Canada? Because that is illegal. Are you planning to use Planes? That will never go through, America will take it back.
How about America? If Britain can’t afford to defend itself, America can ship in their own infantry, bombers, fighters, and what not. This strategy leaves Russia too powerful, though I agree with the “no-hawaii” part .
Taking UK before Russia would be a fun thing to attempt one day, though when it actually does happen, it wouldn’t be done in such an intricate fashion.
Germany can try building a fleet, but they would have to use it to trick russia or america as well.