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1000 year Reich, was it possible?



  • I dont believe it would have been possible, ill argue it later, but i want to here everyones opinions first!



  • I personally do not. Simply put, their would not be enough Jews to kill. Once the Jews were all dead, he would lose any support for his rule in France, Romania, Ukraine, Hungary, Austria, etc. Eventually, internal resistance throughout his conquered lands, with his military forces streched from the coasts of Normandy to the Nile River to the Ural mountians, would cause his government to collapse. When it collapsed in all the external areas, the heartland would soon follow. Either that, or the new France would conquer it for revenge 😎 .



  • Not possible. First, you have to ask yourself the question, who did the Germans defeat? here is the list:

    1. Polland, they still used cavalry, and tried to attack tanks with it, didn’t stand a chance.
    2. Norway and Denmark, mostly caught by surprise, and they didnt really try to fight, plus they were out numbered and out gunned. They too, didn’t stand a chance.
    3. Holland and Belgium, they had what, 20 divisions to oppose the Germans?
    4. France, they didn’t even have an air force, which negated their advantage in numbers, their commanders still believed in trench warfare. plus they have this knack for surrendering. 😉
      5)Yugoslavia and Greece, nothing in the way of an air force here either, and a woefully small number of tanks when compared to the Germans.
      6)Britian, they didn’t even beat the Brits, even with more men, more tanks, and most importantly, more aircraft.
      7)Russia, caught totally by surprise with grossly incompotent, but “politically reliable” generals leading it,yet still they couldnt beat these guys either!
      8)The United States of America, the economic giant Hitler tried to avoid going to war with, and when he did, it quickened his defeat because he could not compare with our production capacity. By the time we went to war, Germany had wasted most of their resources in British skies and Russian snows, this made our job a little easier.

    All in all, when Hitler tried to tackle countries with sizable armies , and competent leadership, countries that could put up a fight, he lost. It was impossible for him to win, because he was facing three countries that had all the qualifications. And even if Germany had beaten Britian and Russia, they would not have been able to take on the USA.

    Thank you Britian, Russia, and The United States.



  • Not possible. 1000 years is a long time for any civilization to last, let alone one as ethnically diverse (with the resultant civil strife) as the 3rd Reich would have been. Also, without having the means to defeat Russia and Great Britian, Germany was doomed to defeat in WWII if by no other means than a war of attrition.

    (With regards to Russia, its my opinion that even had Germany won every battle it fought there still would not have been enough troops to hold what was taken. With regards to Great Britian, its my opinion that Germany could never have had the capability to win a decisive enough Naval victory (ies) or strategic bombing capacity to force a surrender).



  • i think 221B had the only intelligent post on this thread so far. i agree with the general idea that it couldnt have happened, but i think all the reasons expressed were not thought through at all, and frankly quite dumb. 😞



  • 7)Russia, caught totally by surprise with grossly incompotent, but “politically reliable” generals leading it,yet still they couldnt beat these guys either!

    Quite fankly, if just one mistake was corrected, Hitler would have won that war in the opening throes. If:
    Japan had used the Kwantung Army to attack Siberia
    Hitler had decided to seize Leningrad instead of seige it
    Hitler had not been forced to invade Yugoslavia by Mussolini, which delayed the campaign
    Hitler had equipped his army with winter supplies, allowing them to press the assualt in winter
    and a big one: Hitler had accepted the surrender of the Russian forces when they offered after the seizure of Keiv and Minsk.
    he would have beaten Russia, and, as such, essentially beaten the allies. over 2/3’s of the german army fought on the eastern front. We could have lost D-day as it happened, if their were 3 times as many men their we would not have stood a chance. Not to mention the fact that we would have lost the African front, and possibly the battle fo the atlantic, if Nazi germany had put all of it’s resources into it. People fail to comprehend how close World War 2 was. If just one more event had gone in Hitler’s favor, it would have been over for the allies. It is quite terrifying to think that Hitler almost suceeded in achieving what he laid out in Mein Kampf.

    However, I am of the opinion that it would not have lasted, as I said earlier.



  • i think 221B had the only intelligent post on this thread so far. i agree with the general idea that it couldnt have happened, but i think all the reasons expressed were not thought through at all, and frankly quite dumb.

    Excuse me, but I hardly think you can simply state that everyone else said something stupid, and leave it at that. I hope you intend to justify your claims. However, i will defend my first post to spare you.
    Despite the villification fo Nazi Germany in World War 2, they were not the only ones to balme for the holocaust. Many poeple in France and Eastern Europe supported HItler’s anti-semtic policy. In France, while their were relatively few Jews, the population was very supportive of Anti-Jewish legislation, and several rallies were held to further punsih the jewish population. Vichy French soldiers often fought bravely against the Allies, partly becuase of his anti-semetic policies. In eastern europe the problem was even mroe pronounced. Hungary and Romania both sent Jews to concentration camps with little help from Nazi Germany, and Romania did it with no pressure, either. The genocide received immense popular support, and the police were able to round up almost all of the jews becuase the people were willing to say who was jewish or not. The searches were very easy. In the former Russian territories, the Nazi’s recieved a similar recpetion. the mass killings at the Ghettos in Riga, for example, were executed by Latvian militias. The killings at Babi Yur, in Kiev, were assisted by ukranian volunteers during the execution and burial. Furthermore, their was a definate lack of resistance against the genocide amoung most of the populace. This accurately demonstrated by Demark, whcih, as the only country in whcih the popualtion resisted the deportation, was able to save 9/10’s of it’s jews.
    Hitler was able to occupy alot of the territories he did by using Anti-semintism to rally support. Once the genocide stopped, however, the needfor Nazi occupation would also stop, and resistance would begin to increase. With so mcuh territory to cover, his forces would have been spread to thin to cope with it all, and it would have fallen apart.



  • Considering Rome could not even last 1000 years as an empire…

    I don’t think any empires have lasted 1000 years without a dynstaty/regime change in history. So no, not possible.



  • Rome did exist for 1000 years, if you don’t restrict yourself to Western Rome. Byzantine fell ….something like 1400ish? The Ottoman Empire comes close to 1000 years as well (not all the time being a real “empire” though).
    And no, i don’t think that the 1000 years would have been possible for Nazi Germany. The leader cult is something that seems to work for a limited time only.


  • Moderator

    Limited rescouces and the World against him…

    Sounds to me like a disaster 😉

    GG



  • Not Hitler, but someone could. Look at Rome, it lasted from 753 BC until 476 AD. That is a time span of 1,229 years!



  • Well, it would require massive changes to the strategy, but it was possible for them to conquer most of the world.
    Take away the early harsh Russian winter and who knows what would have happened in Russia year 1.
    Go back afew steps and what would have happened had the British been destroyed at Dunkirk? It’s not an immediate win, but it takes the British out of it for a year.
    Dunno. Possible, but not probable. The Germans had an incredible force and ruthlessness that made it possible.
    Diversity in the countries they conquered is a non-issue. They would wipe out anyone they did not like. 1000 years is a long time though.I can’t really say I believe people would allow hell on earth to last that long.



  • they never could have won, think of it, how could the germans possibly invade the united states? maybe britian, but the usa? they would have to cross the atlantic subjected to naval and air attacks, and then land on our shores, again taking heavy casualties, and they would have to subjugate us americans, an impossiblity first learned by the brititsh in the war for independance.


  • Moderator

    and to add to that Marine would they have been able to beat oure production?

    GG



  • and to add to that Marine would they have been able to beat oure production?

    They wouldnt have to. Once Britian and Russia were conquered, how would we assemble, supply, and deploy a force large enought to penetrae the continent? With the Atlantic Wall fully manned, and ample Luftwaffe cover, “Fortress Europe” would become a reality. America is valuble only so much as it’s allies survive.
    Also, our production gap was not as large as you might think. We outproduced Germany by so much becuase Hitler put a ton of resources into his little “projects”, like the V-2 Rocket, which consumed producion of about 24,000 planes, and an artillery piece that could shoot across the English Channel (bombed en route to Belgium). Fully devoted, The German war machine could produce enough to hold off the Americans. Besides, Germany never lacked tanks or planes so much as they lacked oil or personnel.
    You also forget one thing: America is a democracy. We were attacked by Japan, not Germany. The newspapers always showed hatred for the Japanese, not the Germans. If the war was going really badly, and did not have much hope of winning, the people would eventually elect someone to get them out of the war.

    Hitler would not be able to set foot in N. America (He was already allied with Argentina. No declaration of war was made by Argentina, kinda like Franco) but as long as America could not defeat Germany, he wouldn’t need to.



  • My presumption was based on Germany stopping periodically. Like I said, major change in tactics.
    With Russia and England out of the war America mould have had a rough time doing much for the same reasons you state they could not invade us. The same Ocean would have stood in our way. Now you need to remember where the oil, etc was. They would have controlled it, not us.
    I still doubt it, but it’s not impossible.


  • Moderator

    But to invade would have cost a huge amount of oil in shipping…

    GG



  • could Nazi Germany possibly have conquered the world? unlikely, but yes. several key things would have had to turn out differently (Japan never bombed pearl harbor, RAF didnt defeat luftwaffe, Operation Barbarossa succeeded, etc.) but it was possible. would it have lasted 1000 years? not with it operating that same way



  • its like yamamoto said, “i fear that i have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve.” he knew we couldnt be beaten.


  • Moderator

    well as I have mentioned before Germany didn’t have higgins boats :-? …

    GG



  • But to invade would have cost a huge amount of oil in shipping…

    Well, if they had beaten Russia and England, then thye would have had the oil of both the Casucases and the Middle East (they briefly occupied Syria) so oil would no longer be a problem/ however, thye woudl not have to invade the US. Thye would lose, it would be pointless, becuase if Europe was conquered, America could not beat Germany. It would be a stalemate, and we would eventually make peace becuase we are a democracy, and the poeple woudl eventually be fed up with having only Californian wine 😎 .

    its like yamamoto said, “i fear that i have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve.” he knew we couldnt be beaten.

    yes, but that does not mean it could beat Japan. Their are two types of losing: failing to acheive your objective, and being invaded and forced to make peace. We would never have been invaded, but we may never have been able to invade the japanese empire either. Even after Midway, the Japanese had several opportunities to set us back huge. For example, after the battle of Savo island (guadacanal), in which the task force under Admiral Mikawa perfomred a night raid on the American destoyers and crusiers in the area, destroying several ships and killing 1000 men, the transports (the only ones in the pacific) were completely exposed. If Mikawa had destroyed them, the marines on Henderson’s field would have been stranded, and quickly overwhelmed. That would have completely destoyed any possibility of making an offensive for several months. Other battles, such as midway itself, other battles during the Gudacanal campaign, and even a couple after (Imphal, etc.) could have prevented a Japanese defeat.


  • Moderator

    (Sigh…)

    You forget, taking territory COST men not gives them more supplies… If they conquered Russia and Britain they would have had to put men back and look at what the US could have mustered… besides you think that if UK was invaded we wouldn’t have declared war which is not true… We and Britain are too close… And in Summer '41 all American Shipping and Aircraft had the right to sink any German vessel west of Iceland… They would have sunk a majority of the shipping and the US Democratic way of defense I think would have come into affect 😉 … Plus All are Tank Factories were in the great lakes! long march… And you think that the US is a weakling with no money or spirit!!! gemeneez, like maybe they should get 10 IPC’s in AaA :-?

    GG



  • I still do not see how it would have been possible for Germany to defeat either GB or Russia.

    Stalin was prepared for a long, bloody fight and moved his armament production to factories on the other side of the Urals … about as far from Moscow as Berlin is from Moscow. Considering the difficulties that the Germans had in approaching Moscow, can you imagine any way it could have been possible to make it to beyond the Urals with losing vast quantities of manpower just to hold the territories from partisan uprising? Most of the German advance was gained by their catching Russia off guard. Yes, had Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad been taken the USSR would have been less able to fight but still that isn’t victory for Germany. The best Germany could have hoped for (once it became apparent that Russia was not going to collapse) would have been to pick a defensive line and stabilize the front. Difficult to do with a defensive line thousands of miles long. Ask the Japanese about their experience in China where they had hundreds of thousands of troops tied down in a similar situation against a country with no factories in the far distance to help build war supplies.

    Likewise, Churchill was no less determined. The German Navy could have no hope of either invading or starving Britian as the British navy was too dominant. Only if the ME262 was available IN LARGE NUMBERS in 1940 could air superiority been maintained such that an invasion would have been possible (but I think still very unlikely to succeed), but this aircraft was never available is sufficient quantities. And then what to do if GB continues the fight from Canada?

    I also don’t buy the idea of fortress Europe as not being possible to invade. We did it during the war in the amphibious invasion of Sicily and Italy. Africa and the Middle East is close enough to Europe for this type of operation against Greece and Vichy France as well. And had Germany won in Africa, it would have been possible to take Africa back from India, via the Middle East.



  • i agree the allies would be very hard to defeat easily. It would end up in a stalemate if germany had luck and good tactics and strategy on their side.

    V2 rocket project and other of these projects were costing extreme amounts of production while germany needed every plane to protect their factories and tanks.
    Winter clothing and other adaptions to russia’s extreme weather.(whole armies froze to death). They crushed the russians in the first year but were halted by the weather and other conditions which made progression really slow and favored defense.
    Japanese attack on Russia
    and better strategy concerning Leningrad, stalingrad and Kursk.
    Oh and dont go to war against three superpowers at the same time.

    but thats a lot of: wel if they did this then they could have……

    The allies made some stupid moves too its part of warfare. But lets say if germany did all things the right way. Russia would move its factories and still fight on and invasion of britain and USA were out of scope yet.

    But if germany managed to stabilize the russian front after taking much of russia. They could switch to divert attention to Africa and fight for control of sea and air. Though neither side would fully get this (germany vs Brittain/USA) to have an oppurtunity to launch a succesful invasion.

    So fortress Europe. Everyone says resistance would prove a problem but i doubt this. The nazi’s didnt have reserves killing anyone which only vaguely came in their way. They would cleanse entire russian territories and would act in a similar destructive way wherever resistance would spring up. They now have resources and time diverted from the russian front mind you.

    Look at North Korea, once propaganda and force sink in at young age and you blame all bad things to a common enemy you get a reasonable stable situation. You see germany never showed its full capacity. The hitler children were still young. Give this 20 years more and you would have generations of fanatical nazi’s each having 8 to 10 children (which was the fascist ideal, enough new soldiers in case of boys to keep fighting and dying and enough breeding machines and housewives in case of girls)

    So a war could then drag on and on. But the americans would finally win when they make their nukes. (would need a lot but they were a huge leap ahead of competition here if used fast and in masse)

    And eventually these totalitarion regimes start to crumble anyway.

    so there wasnt a real chance of victory once they started waging war with USA russia and britain. And even if they had stabilised the situation they wouldnt get their 1000 year reich.



  • You forget, taking territory COST men not gives them more supplies… If they conquered Russia and Britain they would have had to put men back and look at what the US could have mustered

    Yes they would have to put men their, but not nearly as much as thye did fighting them. They certainly would not have needed two third of their army to suppress Russia. The russians, while patriotic, were not communists, and the partisan resistance would have been minimal IF Hitler did not persecute the slavs. Thats a big if, but somehting he could have changed. Also, i never said occupy Britian, i said beat them. Hitler’s “world order” called for peace with Britian. Many people in britian wanted to end the war and make peace, if the Luftwaffe had been more successful, then they mght have.

    you think that if UK was invaded we wouldn’t have declared war which is not true… We and Britain are too close… And in Summer '41 all American Shipping and Aircraft had the right to sink any German vessel west of Iceland… They would have sunk a majority of the shipping and the US Democratic way of defense I think would have come into affect … Plus All are Tank Factories were in the great lakes! long march… And you think that the US is a weakling with no money or spirit!!! gemeneez, like maybe they should get 10 IPC’s in AaA

    Um… i was talking about a situation where America WAS at war with Germany, so i know they would have declared war. As ive said, Germany would not invade America, It would just defend, so the location of the factories is irrelevant. At the time, the US had no spirit for the war with Gemrnay, thats why we needed to be attacked to trigger it, IF the war was goign badly, we would have eventually made peace. America was very isolationist back in the 40’s.

    Stalin was prepared for a long, bloody fight

    Hehehehe…he was far from prepared for ANY fight. He proposed a peace treaty to the Germans in the opening months of the 1941 invasion, after the fall of kiev and minsk, and constantly tried to negotiate throughout 1941. He almost fled Russia, and was so paranoid that hsi staff would betray him he locked himself in his bunker for days, without letting anyone in. He wanted peace, very badly.

    Considering the difficulties that the Germans had in approaching Moscow, can you imagine any way it could have been possible to make it to beyond the Urals with losing vast quantities of manpower just to hold the territories from partisan uprising? Most of the German advance was gained by their catching Russia off guard. Yes, had Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad been taken the USSR would have been less able to fight but still that isn’t victory for Germany.

    Well, first, if the invasion of MOscow had worked, then alot of those factories would not have made it to the urals, but their is a bigger point. If Germany had taken Moscow, their would have been no government to administer those factories. The soviet Administration would have collapsed, and since Hitler had acheived his objectives of reaching the Urals, he would have made peace with whatever rose up in Siberia. As for Partisians, initally the Ukranians, belorussians, and even the Russians, welcomed Nazi rule. Their was alot of Anti-semitism in Russia, so they were eager to assist the holocaust, and the SOviet government had cuased so much damage and death that any capitalist system was welcome. Only once Hitler started terrorizing the slavs did resistance occur. This is also partly why the govenrment would have collapsed, since the Russian people would not support it.

    Likewise, Churchill was no less determined. The German Navy could have no hope of either invading or starving Britian as the British navy was too dominant. Only if the ME262 was available IN LARGE NUMBERS in 1940 could air superiority been maintained such that an invasion would have been possible (but I think still very unlikely to succeed), but this aircraft was never available is sufficient quantities. And then what to do if GB continues the fight from Canada?

    First, an invasion of England could have been possible in a couple months after the fall of France (like 6) if the Germans built enough transports. The british navy was hardly dominant, lacking aricraft carriers and anti-air defense, so it could be paralyzed by air power during an invasion. If the ME262 is the jet fighter, which i think it is, those would not ahve been necesary at all. The earlier ME series planes could have paralyzed the RAF, and almost did, but then Hitler decided to swicth to the bombing of London. If Hitler had also coordinated both his intellgence and ariforce more effectively (His intelligence divisions were speareted into six different groups, who did not coordinate at all, leading to some very confusing reports) It could have been possible. As you said, Churchill would nto surrender, but once Churchill is gone, then that would change. Cause enough damage, make him unpopular, then have hm removed by either assisnation, revolt, or invasion.
    could say more, but i dont have time. To clarify, i dont think Hitler could have lasted 1000 years, but I do think he could have temporarily defeated the Allies before his government fell apart. I apologize for any spelling mistakes.


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