1000 year Reich, was it possible?

[221B Baker Street]

Not possible. 1000 years is a long time for any civilization to last, let alone one as ethnically diverse (with the resultant civil strife) as the 3rd Reich would have been. Also, without having the means to defeat Russia and Great Britian, Germany was doomed to defeat in WWII if by no other means than a war of attrition.

(With regards to Russia, its my opinion that even had Germany won every battle it fought there still would not have been enough troops to hold what was taken. With regards to Great Britian, its my opinion that Germany could never have had the capability to win a decisive enough Naval victory (ies) or strategic bombing capacity to force a surrender).

[Janus1]

i think 221B had the only intelligent post on this thread so far. i agree with the general idea that it couldnt have happened, but i think all the reasons expressed were not thought through at all, and frankly quite dumb. :(

[CommissarYarric]

7)Russia, caught totally by surprise with grossly incompotent, but “politically reliable” generals leading it,yet still they couldnt beat these guys either!

Quite fankly, if just one mistake was corrected, Hitler would have won that war in the opening throes. If:
Japan had used the Kwantung Army to attack Siberia
Hitler had decided to seize Leningrad instead of seige it
Hitler had not been forced to invade Yugoslavia by Mussolini, which delayed the campaign
Hitler had equipped his army with winter supplies, allowing them to press the assualt in winter
and a big one: Hitler had accepted the surrender of the Russian forces when they offered after the seizure of Keiv and Minsk.
he would have beaten Russia, and, as such, essentially beaten the allies. over 2/3’s of the german army fought on the eastern front. We could have lost D-day as it happened, if their were 3 times as many men their we would not have stood a chance. Not to mention the fact that we would have lost the African front, and possibly the battle fo the atlantic, if Nazi germany had put all of it’s resources into it. People fail to comprehend how close World War 2 was. If just one more event had gone in Hitler’s favor, it would have been over for the allies. It is quite terrifying to think that Hitler almost suceeded in achieving what he laid out in Mein Kampf.

However, I am of the opinion that it would not have lasted, as I said earlier.

[CommissarYarric]

i think 221B had the only intelligent post on this thread so far. i agree with the general idea that it couldnt have happened, but i think all the reasons expressed were not thought through at all, and frankly quite dumb.

Excuse me, but I hardly think you can simply state that everyone else said something stupid, and leave it at that. I hope you intend to justify your claims. However, i will defend my first post to spare you.
Despite the villification fo Nazi Germany in World War 2, they were not the only ones to balme for the holocaust. Many poeple in France and Eastern Europe supported HItler’s anti-semtic policy. In France, while their were relatively few Jews, the population was very supportive of Anti-Jewish legislation, and several rallies were held to further punsih the jewish population. Vichy French soldiers often fought bravely against the Allies, partly becuase of his anti-semetic policies. In eastern europe the problem was even mroe pronounced. Hungary and Romania both sent Jews to concentration camps with little help from Nazi Germany, and Romania did it with no pressure, either. The genocide received immense popular support, and the police were able to round up almost all of the jews becuase the people were willing to say who was jewish or not. The searches were very easy. In the former Russian territories, the Nazi’s recieved a similar recpetion. the mass killings at the Ghettos in Riga, for example, were executed by Latvian militias. The killings at Babi Yur, in Kiev, were assisted by ukranian volunteers during the execution and burial. Furthermore, their was a definate lack of resistance against the genocide amoung most of the populace. This accurately demonstrated by Demark, whcih, as the only country in whcih the popualtion resisted the deportation, was able to save 9/10’s of it’s jews.
Hitler was able to occupy alot of the territories he did by using Anti-semintism to rally support. Once the genocide stopped, however, the needfor Nazi occupation would also stop, and resistance would begin to increase. With so mcuh territory to cover, his forces would have been spread to thin to cope with it all, and it would have fallen apart.

[Yanny]

Considering Rome could not even last 1000 years as an empire…

I don’t think any empires have lasted 1000 years without a dynstaty/regime change in history. So no, not possible.

[Guest]

Rome did exist for 1000 years, if you don’t restrict yourself to Western Rome. Byzantine fell ….something like 1400ish? The Ottoman Empire comes close to 1000 years as well (not all the time being a real “empire” though).
And no, i don’t think that the 1000 years would have been possible for Nazi Germany. The leader cult is something that seems to work for a limited time only.

[Guerrilla Guy]

Limited rescouces and the World against him…

Sounds to me like a disaster :wink:

GG

[Desertfox]

Not Hitler, but someone could. Look at Rome, it lasted from 753 BC until 476 AD. That is a time span of 1,229 years!

[Lizardbaby]

Well, it would require massive changes to the strategy, but it was possible for them to conquer most of the world.
Take away the early harsh Russian winter and who knows what would have happened in Russia year 1.
Go back afew steps and what would have happened had the British been destroyed at Dunkirk? It’s not an immediate win, but it takes the British out of it for a year.
Dunno. Possible, but not probable. The Germans had an incredible force and ruthlessness that made it possible.
Diversity in the countries they conquered is a non-issue. They would wipe out anyone they did not like. 1000 years is a long time though.I can’t really say I believe people would allow hell on earth to last that long.

[Guest]

they never could have won, think of it, how could the germans possibly invade the united states? maybe britian, but the usa? they would have to cross the atlantic subjected to naval and air attacks, and then land on our shores, again taking heavy casualties, and they would have to subjugate us americans, an impossiblity first learned by the brititsh in the war for independance.

[Guerrilla Guy]

and to add to that Marine would they have been able to beat oure production?

GG

[CommissarYarric]

and to add to that Marine would they have been able to beat oure production?

They wouldnt have to. Once Britian and Russia were conquered, how would we assemble, supply, and deploy a force large enought to penetrae the continent? With the Atlantic Wall fully manned, and ample Luftwaffe cover, “Fortress Europe” would become a reality. America is valuble only so much as it’s allies survive.
Also, our production gap was not as large as you might think. We outproduced Germany by so much becuase Hitler put a ton of resources into his little “projects”, like the V-2 Rocket, which consumed producion of about 24,000 planes, and an artillery piece that could shoot across the English Channel (bombed en route to Belgium). Fully devoted, The German war machine could produce enough to hold off the Americans. Besides, Germany never lacked tanks or planes so much as they lacked oil or personnel.
You also forget one thing: America is a democracy. We were attacked by Japan, not Germany. The newspapers always showed hatred for the Japanese, not the Germans. If the war was going really badly, and did not have much hope of winning, the people would eventually elect someone to get them out of the war.

Hitler would not be able to set foot in N. America (He was already allied with Argentina. No declaration of war was made by Argentina, kinda like Franco) but as long as America could not defeat Germany, he wouldn’t need to.

[Lizardbaby]

My presumption was based on Germany stopping periodically. Like I said, major change in tactics.
With Russia and England out of the war America mould have had a rough time doing much for the same reasons you state they could not invade us. The same Ocean would have stood in our way. Now you need to remember where the oil, etc was. They would have controlled it, not us.
I still doubt it, but it’s not impossible.

[Guerrilla Guy]

But to invade would have cost a huge amount of oil in shipping…

GG

[Janus1]

could Nazi Germany possibly have conquered the world? unlikely, but yes. several key things would have had to turn out differently (Japan never bombed pearl harbor, RAF didnt defeat luftwaffe, Operation Barbarossa succeeded, etc.) but it was possible. would it have lasted 1000 years? not with it operating that same way

[Guest]

its like yamamoto said, “i fear that i have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve.” he knew we couldnt be beaten.

[Guerrilla Guy]

well as I have mentioned before Germany didn’t have higgins boats :-? …

GG

[CommissarYarric]

But to invade would have cost a huge amount of oil in shipping…

Well, if they had beaten Russia and England, then thye would have had the oil of both the Casucases and the Middle East (they briefly occupied Syria) so oil would no longer be a problem/ however, thye woudl not have to invade the US. Thye would lose, it would be pointless, becuase if Europe was conquered, America could not beat Germany. It would be a stalemate, and we would eventually make peace becuase we are a democracy, and the poeple woudl eventually be fed up with having only Californian wine 8) .

its like yamamoto said, “i fear that i have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve.” he knew we couldnt be beaten.

yes, but that does not mean it could beat Japan. Their are two types of losing: failing to acheive your objective, and being invaded and forced to make peace. We would never have been invaded, but we may never have been able to invade the japanese empire either. Even after Midway, the Japanese had several opportunities to set us back huge. For example, after the battle of Savo island (guadacanal), in which the task force under Admiral Mikawa perfomred a night raid on the American destoyers and crusiers in the area, destroying several ships and killing 1000 men, the transports (the only ones in the pacific) were completely exposed. If Mikawa had destroyed them, the marines on Henderson’s field would have been stranded, and quickly overwhelmed. That would have completely destoyed any possibility of making an offensive for several months. Other battles, such as midway itself, other battles during the Gudacanal campaign, and even a couple after (Imphal, etc.) could have prevented a Japanese defeat.

[Guerrilla Guy]

(Sigh…)

You forget, taking territory COST men not gives them more supplies… If they conquered Russia and Britain they would have had to put men back and look at what the US could have mustered… besides you think that if UK was invaded we wouldn’t have declared war which is not true… We and Britain are too close… And in Summer '41 all American Shipping and Aircraft had the right to sink any German vessel west of Iceland… They would have sunk a majority of the shipping and the US Democratic way of defense I think would have come into affect :wink: … Plus All are Tank Factories were in the great lakes! long march… And you think that the US is a weakling with no money or spirit!!! gemeneez, like maybe they should get 10 IPC’s in AaA :-?

GG

[221B Baker Street]

I still do not see how it would have been possible for Germany to defeat either GB or Russia.

Stalin was prepared for a long, bloody fight and moved his armament production to factories on the other side of the Urals … about as far from Moscow as Berlin is from Moscow. Considering the difficulties that the Germans had in approaching Moscow, can you imagine any way it could have been possible to make it to beyond the Urals with losing vast quantities of manpower just to hold the territories from partisan uprising? Most of the German advance was gained by their catching Russia off guard. Yes, had Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad been taken the USSR would have been less able to fight but still that isn’t victory for Germany. The best Germany could have hoped for (once it became apparent that Russia was not going to collapse) would have been to pick a defensive line and stabilize the front. Difficult to do with a defensive line thousands of miles long. Ask the Japanese about their experience in China where they had hundreds of thousands of troops tied down in a similar situation against a country with no factories in the far distance to help build war supplies.

Likewise, Churchill was no less determined. The German Navy could have no hope of either invading or starving Britian as the British navy was too dominant. Only if the ME262 was available IN LARGE NUMBERS in 1940 could air superiority been maintained such that an invasion would have been possible (but I think still very unlikely to succeed), but this aircraft was never available is sufficient quantities. And then what to do if GB continues the fight from Canada?

I also don’t buy the idea of fortress Europe as not being possible to invade. We did it during the war in the amphibious invasion of Sicily and Italy. Africa and the Middle East is close enough to Europe for this type of operation against Greece and Vichy France as well. And had Germany won in Africa, it would have been possible to take Africa back from India, via the Middle East.