Rethinking Strategic Bomber and Tactical Bomber Roles

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

No, I was thinking 6 value die and the reason for lower values is do to the str bombers accuracy.
If you keep cost at 12 those numbers are good. If cost is 15 then raise values maybe 1 and SBR 1 die roll plus 2.
If you have Str Bombers attacking naval make it A1  D0

If the bomber gets a +1 on attack paired with a Fig, then how does that increase the Str bombers accuracy?

I can rationalize it as Fighters doing escorting missions will prevent enemy’s Fgs from intercepting and damaging some of them.
With 1 escorting Fg, 1 StB act like working under clear sky and no enemy’s plane.

[barney]

Nice work Baron! Sounds fun to me!

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks.
I wouldn’t have think about it without ShadowHAwk commentaries on the special Fighter unit which can directly hit other planes.

I basically used the OOB reverse value of Fg (A3 D4) and TcB (A4 D3) and I subtracted 1 Off/Def point.

An incentive was mandatory to risk more valuable planes into battle with grounds and aircrafts.

Also, with a high defense @3 for Fg, I believe it is necessary to have plenty rooms for air Fodder, hence the 3-planes Carrier and cheaper cost.

Also, it is a really big deterrent against SBR, that’s why Fg and TcB gets A2 when doing SBR escort.
I kept a low @1 for bomber, since their main function is to bombard ICs with D6+2 each.
The lower 10 IPCs StB cost can somehow slightly compensate but not entirely for riskier SBR raid.

For 6 StB you pay 60 IPCs instead of 72 IPCs.

On average, you lost 1/6 StB and make 5/6 D6+2 damage (5.5 IPCs).
5.5 x 5 = 27.5 IPCs minus 12 IPCs = + 15.5 IPCs net damage for 72 IPCs investment: 21.5% return on investment after 6 SBRs,
5.5 x 5 = 27.5 IPCs minus 10 IPCs = + 17.5 IPCs net damage for 60 IPCs investment. 29.2% return on investment after 6 SBRs.

However, this doesn’t consider the higher risk of even a single interceptor @3.

Here is the summary for this very special House Rule  :

Global40 SBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2  / damage 2D6
Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run                      Sum: + 5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: + 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/SBR run                Sum: + 5.833 - 1.667 = +4.166 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HRules :1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D3
Sum: + 4.213 - 7 = - 2.787 IPC. damage/SBR run                                   Sum: + 4.908 - 7 = - 2.092 IPC damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: + 3.879 - 5.833 = - 1.954 IPC damage/SBR run                              Sum: + 4.574 - 5.833 = - 1.259 IPC damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: **1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: +2.813- 9.5 = - 6.687 IPCs damage/SBR run                                  Sum: +3.125 - 9.5 = - 6.375 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: +2.479 - 7.917 = - 5.438 IPCs damage/SBR run                              Sum: +2.791 -7.917 = - 5.126 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: + 8.438 - 12 = - 3.562 IPC damage/SBR run                                    Sum: + 9.375 - 12 = - 2.625 IPC damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: + 7.438 - 9.75 = - 2.312 IPC damage/SBR run                                  Sum: + 8.375 - 9.75 = - 1.375 IPC damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: +7.918 - 14 = - 6.082 IPCs damage/SBR run                                         Sum: +9.168 - 14 = - 4.832 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: +6.531 - 11.667 = - 5.136 IPCs damage/SBR run                                     Sum: +8.5 - 11.667 = - 3.167 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: + 9.027 - 7 = + 2.027 IPCs damage/SBR run                                        Sum: + 10.277 - 7 = + 3.277 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: + 8.139 - 5.666 = + 2.473 IPCs damage/SBR run                                    Sum: + 9.389 - 5.666 = + 3.723 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: +9.931 - 9 = + 0.931 IPCs damage/SBR run                                     Sum: +11.806 - 9 = + 2.806 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: +9.319 - 7.5 = + 1.819 IPCs damage/SBR run                                   Sum: +11.194 - 7.5 = + 3.694 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

Here is all the maths calculation on which was based the above summary :

Global40 SBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2  / damage 2D6
5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs                                   5/6 StB survived * 7 IPCs = + 5.833 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs

Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run                 Sum: + 5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR run

1/6 StB killed *10 IPCs = -1.667 IPCs

Sum: + 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/SBR run           Sum: + 5.833 - 1.667 = +4.166 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HRules :1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D3

StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll = odds casualties

1/63/66/6= 18/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed
1/63/61/6= 3/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed
1/63/65/6= 15/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed

5/63/66/6= 90/216 StB killed by Fg
5/63/61/6= 15/216 StB killed by AAA
5/63/65/6= 75/216 both survived

Results:
Bombard on IC 100/216= 46.296% * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.546 IPCs        / +7 IPCs = +3.241 IPCs
killing Fg 36/216= 16.667% *+10 IPC = + 1.667 IPC
StB killed 126/216= 58.333% *-12 IPCs = - 7 IPCs
Sum: + 4.213 - 7 = - 2.787 IPC. damage/SBR run                              Sum: + 4.908 - 7 = - 2.092 IPC damage/SBR run

killing Fg 36/216= 16.667% *+8 IPC = + 1.333 IPC
StB killed 126/216= 58.333% *-10 IPCs = - 5.833 IPCs
Sum: + 3.879 - 5.833 = - 1.954 IPC damage/SBR run                              Sum: + 4.574 - 5.833 = - 1.259 IPC damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: 1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/627/366/6 = 162/1296 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
1/69/361/6= 9/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/69/365/6 = 45/1296 no casualty vs 1 Fg

5/627/366/6 = 810/1296 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/69/361/6 = 45/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/69/365/6 = 225/1296 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 270/1296= 20.833% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +1.146 IPCs                    / +7 IPCs = +1.458 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296= 16.667% +10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPCs
1 StB killed: 1026/1296= 79.167%-12 IPCs = - 9.5 IPCs

Sum: +2.813- 9.5 = - 6.687 IPCs damage/SBR run                                  Sum: +3.125 - 9.5 = - 6.375 IPCs damage/SBR run

Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296= 16.667% +8 IPCs = + 1.333 IPCs
1 StB killed: 1026/1296= 79.167%-10 IPCs = - 7.917 IPCs

Sum: +2.479 - 7.917 = - 5.438 IPCs damage/SBR run                                  Sum: +2.791 -7.917 = - 5.126 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3

StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
2/369/366/6 = 108/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fgs vs 2 Fgs
2/3618/361/6 = 36/7776 1 Fg killed and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
2/3618/365/6 = 180/7776 1 Fg killed vs 2 Fgs
2/369/361/6 = 18/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
2/369/365/6 = 90/7776 no casualty vs 2 Fgs

14/369/366/6 = 756/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg
14/3618/361/6 = 252/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
14/3618/365/6 = 1260/7776 1 Fg killed vs 1 Fg
14/369/361/6= 126/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
14/369/365/6 = 630/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

20/369/366/6 = 1080/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
20/3618/361/6 = 360/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/3618/365/6 = 1800/7776 1 Fg killed vs no casualty
20/369/361/6 = 180/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/369/365/6 = 900/7776 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 4860/7776= 62.5%* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 3.438 IPCs             / +7 IPCs = +4.375 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 432/7776= 5.556%+20 IPCs = + 1.111 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 3024/7776= 38.889% +10 IPCs = + 3.889 IPCs
Fg killed: 3240/7776= 41.667%-10 IPCs = - 4.167 IPCs
StB killed: 324/7776= 4.167%-12 IPCs = - 0.5 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 2592/7776=33.333%*-22 IPCs = - 7.333 IPCs

Sum: + 8.438 - 12 = - 3.562 IPC damage/SBR run                                  Sum: + 9.375 - 12 = - 2.625 IPC damage/SBR run

Killing 2 Fgs: 432/7776= 5.556%+16 IPCs = + 0.889 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 3024/7776= 38.889% +8 IPCs = + 3.111 IPCs
Fg killed: 3240/7776= 41.667%-8 IPCs* = - 3.333 IPCs
StB killed: 324/7776= 4.167%-10 IPCs = - 0.417 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 2592/7776=33.333%-18 IPCs = - 6 IPCs

Sum: + 7.438 - 9.75 = - 2.312 IPC damage/SBR run                                  Sum: + 8.375 - 9.75 = - 1.375 IPC damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/369/3636/36 = 324/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs
1/3618/366/36 = 108/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
1/3618/3630/36 = 540/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs
1/369/361/36 = 9/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
1/369/3610/36 = 90/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
1/369/3625/36 = 225/46656 no casualty vs 2 Fgs

10/369/3636/36 = 3240/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
10/3618/366/36 = 1080/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
10/3618/3630/36 = 5400/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
10/369/361/36= 90/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
10/369/3610/36= 900/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
10/369/3625/36 = 2250/46656 no casualty vs 1 Fg

25/369/3636/36 = 8100/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/3618/366/36 = 2700/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/3618/3630/36 = 13500/46656 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/369/361/36 = 225/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/369/3610/36 = 2250/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/369/3625/36 = 5625/46656 no casualty at all

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 8100/46656= 17.361% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 1.910 IPCs                     / +14 IPCs= + 2.431 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 22680/46656= 48.611% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.674 IPCs                       / +7 IPCs = + 3.403 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656= 2.778%+20 IPCs = + 0.556 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656= 27.778% +10 IPCs = + 2.778 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 15876/46656= 34.028%-24 IPCs = - 8.167 IPCs
1 StB killed: 22680/46656= 48.611%-12 IPCs = - 5.833 IPCs

Sum: +7.918 - 14 = - 6.082 IPCs damage/SBR run                                     Sum: +9.168 - 14 = - 4.832 IPCs damage/SBR run

Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656= 2.778%+16 IPCs = + 0.444 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656= 27.778% +8 IPCs = + 2.222 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 15876/46656= 34.028%-20 IPCs = - 6.806 IPCs
1 StB killed: 22680/46656= 48.611%-10 IPCs = - 4.861 IPCs

Sum: +6.531 - 11.667 = - 5.136 IPCs damage/SBR run                                     Sum: +8.5 - 11.667 = - 3.167 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D3

StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

16/363/61/6= 48/1296 1 Fg killed and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
16/363/65/6= 240/1296 1 Fg killed vs 1 Fg
16/363/61/6= 48/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
16/363/65/6 = 240/1296 no casualty vs 1 Fg

20/363/61/6 = 60/1296 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/363/65/6 = 300/1296 1 Fg killed vs no casualty
20/363/61/6 = 60/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/363/65/6 = 300/1296 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 1080/1296 = 83.333% * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.583 IPCs                               / +7 IPCs = + 5.833 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 576/1296 = 44.444% +10 IPCs = + 4.444 IPCs
Fg killed: 540/1296 = 41.667%-10 IPCs = - 4.167 IPCs
StB killed: 108/1296 = 8.333%-12 IPCs = - 1 IPC
StB & Fg killed: 108/1296 = 8.333%-22 IPCs = - 1.833 IPCs

Sum: + 9.027 - 7 = + 2.027 IPCs damage/SBR run                                    Sum: + 10.277 - 7 = + 3.277 IPCs damage/SBR run

Killing 1 Fg: 576/1296 = 44.444% +8 IPCs = + 3.556 IPCs
Fg killed: 540/1296 = 41.667%-8 IPCs = - 3.333 IPCs
StB killed: 108/1296 = 8.333%-10 IPCs = - 0.833 IPC
StB & Fg killed: 108/1296 = 8.333%-18 IPCs = - 1.5 IPCs

Sum: + 8.139 - 5.666 = + 2.473 IPCs damage/SBR run                                    Sum: + 9.389 - 5.666 = + 3.723 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D3

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

11/363/66/36 = 198/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/363/630/36 = 990/7776 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
11/363/61/36 = 33/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/363/610/36 = 330/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/363/625/36 = 825/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

25/363/66/36 = 450/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/363/630/36 = 2250/7776 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/363/61/36 = 75/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/363/610/36 = 750/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/363/625/36 = 1875/7776 no casualty at all

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 2700/7776= 34.722% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 3.819 IPCs                                 / +14 IPCs= + 4.861 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 4320/7776= 55.556% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 3.056 IPCs                                   / +7 IPCs = + 3.889 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 2376/7776= 30.556% +10 IPCs = + 3.056 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 756/7776= 9.722%-24 IPCs = - 2.333 IPCs
1 StB killed: 4320/7776= 55.556%*-12 IPCs = - 6.667 IPCs

Sum: +9.931 - 9 = + 0.931 IPCs damage/SBR run                                   Sum: +11.806 - 9 = + 2.806 IPCs damage/SBR run

Killing 1 Fg: 2376/7776= 30.556% +8 IPCs = + 2.444 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 756/7776= 9.722%-20 IPCs = - 1.944 IPCs
1 StB killed: 4320/7776= 55.556%*-10 IPCs = - 5.556 IPCs

Sum: +9.319 - 7.5 = + 1.819 IPCs damage/SBR run                                   Sum: +11.194 - 7.5 = + 3.694 IPCs damage/SBR run**

[baron Münchhausen]

GODLEADER wrote Tuesday Apr 02, 2013 12:34 pm:

For me too the SBR is too strong. The escort F def at 2 and reaction plane at 3.
Bomber cost is +2.

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6491&start=160

@GODLEADER,
I hope you will read this post.
Did you ever play a G40 game with such SBR rules?
I would like to get your experienced feedback about it.

Based on my calculations (last post, above), it gives the impression that such Fighter unit, is somewhat too tough on incoming StBs and escorts:

FIGHTER
Attack 2 can rise to 3
Defense 3 can rise to 4
Move 4
Cost 8
Air combat unit: All hits are allocated to aircraft units first, if any available

Air Supremacy bonus: +1 Attack/Defense when no enemy’s aircraft

Combined Arms bonus: gives +1 Attack/Defense when paired 1:1 with Tactical Bomber unit or Strategic Bomber unit

SBR escort mission: Attack @2
Can intercept in SBR: Defense @3.

Degrasse wrote Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:25 am:

I read the earlier posts where Oakshield and Cmdr Jennifer were leaning towards bombers fighting at 1 less than the escorts and interceptors. The bombers defending at a lesser factor than the escorts or interceptors is important as that defense difference will encourage the use of escorts. If the escorts and bombers both defend equally, then you should just send all bomber raids.

A. Bomber @ 0, Escort or interceptor @ 1, jet escort or interceptor @ 2
B. Bomber @ 1, Escort or interceptor @ 2, jet escort or interceptor @ 3

Either of these would work, but would B lead to too much attrition in SBR?

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6491&start=112

[barney]

Played a few more games and it seems to be working out well. SBR’s are still effective although they don’t happen quite as often. I’m somewhat conservative and like to have local air superiority before I attack. Likewise the defense doesn’t want to intercept and risk their fighters, but save them for land attack.

Germany was able to hit London and Moscow with Tac’s along to boost their strength so they encountered no interceptors. Later when Germany was in Belarus fighter escort kept Moscow interceptors grounded. Japan was also successful against India but it did tie up some fighter escorts from other missions.

The main difference was,obviously,the 3 attack. Noticed it mostly when taking out single blockers. Before you could send a dude and a bomber and feel pretty confidant that the enemy would die and you’d get the territory. But with only a 3 hit I was shut down more often. Even sending a extra dude didn’t always work and sending the fighter to boost kept the fighter from another mission.

Same thing with taking out sub killing destoyers. At least I had a carrier to send fighter backup but in the past a lot of times I would just send the bomber and a sub. Also threatening Gibralter sea zones was way weaker.

Found myself buying more fighters (although I’ve always liked fighters) to go with bombers and more Tac’s because of their 4 hit and tank boost on defense. Had Italy can open and moved a large German stack with armor and Tac’s but don’t know if it was really that much different than normal tactics. US and Japanese bombers also felt the difference but for me anyway Germany felt it most.

So I would say it lowers the number of bombers you build mostly due to the desire to have a fighter backup and Tac’s hitting at 4. It’s mostly when they’re on long range missions that they’re weaker. That seems more “real” to me. Tac’s were HellDivers and Stukas taking out aircraft carriers and tanks. Bombers were taking out factories, air bases and naval bases. Without fighter escort they usually got slaughtered. But the way A&A is designed they need to be able to take out combat units as well.

I know none of this is a revelation :) just thought I’d share my thoughts :) I like it and am going to use it as a standard.

P

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Well wasn’t able to get all of it Baron but here’s a triplea xml that has bombers A3 +1 when paired with fighter(1:1), TACs A4 D3 gives +1 to tanks D when paired 1:1. Fighter escort and interceptors A/D 2.

Wasn’t able to get the +1 when no enemy air is present, but I don’t think that will mess things up too much. Most ships have either ACs or ABs to protect them. One fighter shutting down a slew of bmbrs would be the same as one dstry shutting down subs. Not being able to hit a lone blocker or sub killer sets them back as well as solo infrantry attacks but we’ll just play the historical strats weren’t good at hitting ships anyway. :) We probably won’t see many SBRs without fighter escort but that’s the way it goes. Their main advantage is still their range and offense can be boosted with a ftr.

TACs get the 4 hit plus the boost to the tanks D. So they still have a connection. Not sure how that will play out but I think it will be OK. Just have to play it and see.

Anyway gonna start a playtest right now.

If you’re not familiar with adding XMLs to triplea: open triplea, open maps, open WW II Global zip, put the objectives there then open games and put the xml there.

I believe it is this combat values you were talking about, right?

So, you like this SBR combat values too?

[barney]

Yes those are the ones Baron. I’ve played several games now and really like it.

[baron Münchhausen]

You still like SBR values even if it becomes a no combat situations?

As you describe it, I understand that either side is afraid of the enemy’s Fighters and there is no more dogfight.

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Found myself buying more fighters (although I’ve always liked fighters) to go with bombers and more Tac’s because of their 4 hit and tank boost on defense. Had Italy can open and moved a large German stack with armor and Tac’s but don’t know if it was really that much different than normal tactics. US and Japanese bombers also felt the difference but for me anyway Germany felt it most.

So I would say it lowers the number of bombers you build mostly due to the desire to have a fighter backup and Tac’s hitting at 4. It’s mostly when they’re on long range missions that they’re weaker. That seems more “real” to me. Tac’s were HellDivers and Stukas taking out aircraft carriers and tanks. Bombers were taking out factories, air bases and naval bases. Without fighter escort they usually got slaughtered. But the way A&A is designed they need to be able to take out combat units as well.

I know none of this is a revelation :) just thought I’d share my thoughts :) I like it and am going to use it as a standard.

It seems to do as predicted on paper. From your description, it feels like a better depiction of WWII aircrafts combat behaviour.
I’m happy too.  :lol:

[barney]

Yes I still like it. The reason there weren’t dogfights was because I only SBR’d when I had 2 or 3 more planes than the defender. And if only 2 I’d have 2 Fighters escorting. So the odds weren’t there. I guess it was just the style of play. I could have sent fewer planes and tried to encourage him to intercept. 2 bombers and 2 escorts against 3 fighters  I’d probably do it.  Even though there were no dogfights I still liked it. I rarely used interceptors before either except for deterrence. If the odds are close to 50-50 I probably won’t dogfight and hope the AA does it’s job. I think I can use the plane in more favorable situations.

Hey glad to see your Happy!

:)

But yea did seem more real. Instead of a long range glorified dive bomber you got what you paid for. :)

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Yes I still like it. The reason there weren’t dogfights was because I only SBR’d when I had 2 or 3 more planes than the defender. And if only 2 I’d have 2 Fighters escorting. So the odds weren’t there. I guess it was just the style of play. I could have sent fewer planes and tried to encourage him to intercept. **2 bombers and 2 escorts against 3 fighters  I’d probably do it. ** Even though there were no dogfights I still liked it. I rarely used interceptors before either except for deterrence. If the odds are close to 50-50 I probably won’t dogfight and hope the AA does it’s job. I think I can use the plane in more favorable situations.

Hey glad to see your Happy!

:)

But yea did seem more real. Instead of a long range glorified dive bomber you got what you paid for. :)

Just out of curiosity, it gives:
Overall %*: A. survives: 100% D. survives: 95.2% No one survives: 0%

Attacker results:
Probability % # units / losses
  29.74% 4: 2 Fgs, 2 StBs no units. : 0 IPCs
  44.64% 3: 1 Fg, 2 StBs 1 Fg. : 10 IPCs
  22.05% 2: 2 StBs       2 Fgs : 20 IPCs
  3.57% 1: 1 StB.   2 Fgs, 1 StB : 32 IPCs

Defender results:
Probability % # units / losses
  31.02% 3: 3 Fgs no units. : 0 IPCs
  42.7% 2: 2 Fgs 1 Fg. : 10 IPCs
  21.5% 1: 1 Fg. 2 Fgs : 20 IPCs
  4.78% 0: no units. 3 Fgs : 30 IPCs

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=2&aCru=&aCar=2&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=3&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=1&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@barney:

Well wasn’t able to get all of it Baron but here’s a triplea xml that has bombers A3 +1 when paired with fighter(1:1), TACs A4 D3 gives +1 to tanks D when paired 1:1. Fighter escort and interceptors A/D 2.

Wasn’t able to get the +1 when no enemy air is present, but I don’t think that will mess things up too much. Most ships have either ACs or ABs to protect them. One fighter shutting down a slew of bmbrs would be the same as one dstry shutting down subs. Not being able to hit a lone blocker or sub killer sets them back as well as solo infrantry attacks but we’ll just play the historical strats weren’t good at hitting ships anyway. :) We probably won’t see many SBRs without fighter escort but that’s the way it goes. Their main advantage is still their range and offense can be boosted with a ftr.

TACs get the 4 hit plus the boost to the tanks D. So they still have a connection. Not sure how that will play out but I think it will be OK. Just have to play it and see.

Anyway gonna start a playtest right now.

If you’re not familiar with adding XMLs to triplea: open triplea, open maps, open WW II Global zip, put the objectives there then open games and put the xml there.

I believe it is this combat values you were talking about, right?

So, you like this SBR combat values too?

Did you play on a board game?
Did you use the +1 when no enemy air is present suggested for Strategic Bomber?

@barney:

Yes I still like it. The reason there weren’t dogfights was because I only SBR’d when I had 2 or 3 more planes than the defender. And if only 2 I’d have 2 Fighters escorting. So the odds weren’t there. I guess it was just the style of play. I could have sent fewer planes and tried to encourage him to intercept. 2 bombers and 2 escorts against 3 fighters  I’d probably do it.  Even though there were no dogfights I still liked it. I rarely used interceptors before either except for deterrence. If the odds are close to 50-50 I probably won’t dogfight and hope the AA does it’s job. I think I can use the plane in more favorable situations.

Hey glad to see your Happy!

:)

But yea did seem more real. Instead of a long range glorified dive bomber you got what you paid for. :)

Maybe a way to get an increase incentive to intercept bombers can be to give a +1 boost on damage for each StB when no Fg is intercepting?
And as long as 1 single Fighter is intercepting, there is no +1 boost on damage for StB.

So, 3 StBs which usually may roll 3D6+6 for an avg 3*5.5 IPCs = 16.5 IPCs would rise to an avg of 19.5 IPCs if not intercepted.
Each bombers could get an avg of 6.5 IPCs (1D6+3)  instead of 5.5 IPCs (1D6+2).

What do you think of this?

[barney]

I think that is an excellent idea. Although I would say they kill the normal +2 on the roll on a 1 to 1 basis. That way one interceptor couldn’t cork a fleet of bombers. I suppose you could make it so they have to (interceptor) win it’s dogfight to make it go into effect. But I think just the presence of a interceptor should be reason enough to disrupt the bombing raid even if he’s shot down.

Sadly I have neither room or friends to play on the real board. I like the +1 rule if I did though.

[baron Münchhausen]

I will think about your challenging idea later.
Maybe there is some simple way to reduced StB damage against interceptor while letting it an interesting maneuver.
And, on the other side, rising damage so any player will prefer to intercept if he can.

Maybe 1D6+1 damage as the basic value. (Avg 4.5 IPCs)
And 1D6+3 damage if StB is not intercepted. (Avg 6.5 IPCs)

I would have to review some tables on SBR.

Or even more tantalizing: 1D6+2 damage still the basic value.
But 1D6+4 damage if StB is not intercepted. (Avg 7.5 IPCs)
More than 2D6 on average (7 IPCs).

[barney]

Cool!  You think apply it on a 1 to 1 basis?

Here’s a scenario:

2 escorts 2 SBRs against 2 interceptors. The interceptors negate the +2 to the die roll on the bombers for launching (1 interceptor per bomber). They still face 2 at 2A and 2 at 1A to their 2 at 2A.

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Cool!  You think apply it on a 1 to 1 basis?

Here’s a scenario:

2 escorts 2 SBRs against 2 interceptors. The interceptors negate the +2 to the die roll on the bombers for launching (1 interceptor per bomber). They still face 2 at 2A and 2 at 1A to their 2 at 2A.

OK, eventually I will try it.
But what can be an incentive to launch 2 Bombers against 2 interceptors?
Actually the 1D6+2 damage still make it an unfair trade odds.
Sum: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR run

Reducing damage will be a deterrent for making SBR in the first place.

[barney]

Right on Baron! Those bombers need to hit heavy when they get through!
So +3 no intercept +1 with?

But what can be an incentive to launch 2 Bombers against 2 interceptors?

No 2 bombers and 2 escorts against 2 interceptors. The interceptors are at losing odds in the dogfight but cancel 2 hits of damage for being there. If the bombers need plus 3 or plus 1 due to interceptors should be fine.

[amanntai]

I think it looks good Baron. I especially like the incentive to intercept even if you’re likely to lose a plane. It never made sense to me that people would choose not to fight battles that IRL, would have been fought. It’s not like the RAF would have said “Nah, we don’t need to intercept those bombers. We need our fighters for D-day!”

I’ll probably use all these HRs except the decreased attack/defense stats and fighter boosts, but only because I try to avoid HRs that conflict with the stats printed on the board. My current fix for preventing Str Bombers from being used in combat is allowing them to fight only one round before retreating.

[baron Münchhausen]

@amanntai:

I think it looks good Baron. I especially like the incentive to intercept even if you’re likely to lose a plane. It never made sense to me that people would choose not to fight battles that IRL, would have been fought. It’s not like the RAF would have said “Nah, we don’t need to intercept those bombers. We need our fighters for D-day!”

I’ll probably use all these HRs except the decreased attack/defense stats and fighter boosts, but only because I try to avoid HRs that conflict with the stats printed on the board. My current fix for preventing Str Bombers from being used in combat is allowing them to fight only one round before retreating.

That is one of the issue. Making interception mandatory can be absurd. The odds can be so against the defending player, it becomes a waste of Fgs to do such interception.
On the other side, it can be also a waste of attacking Fgs, if there is too much of them that defender never dare to expose his own fighters under heavy fire.

About stats printed on board, there is no Infos on SBR combat values for StBs, TcBs and Fgs.

Even the SBR or TBR damage are not put on the board.

This gives plenty of room to find a good SBR mechanics which provides a real incentive for defending interceptors.

From a statistical damage calculations, it is better to keep the basic situation at D6+2 on AB, NB and IC.

However, how can be modulate the bonus for interceptor or the penalty for not using them accordingly?

This need to be explored.
Thanks,
Baron

[nerquen]

I have a simple house rule idea for limiting bombers air blitzing abilities. Purpose of strategic bombers is

A) to attack enemy infrastructure and thus damage enemy’s economic production and/or morale.
B) to soften enemy’s defensive positions in preparation before a land attack.

But strategic bombers have not been used to kill enemy units directly, at least not in significant numbers. The purpose A) in Global’40 is modeled via strategic bombing rules. Purpose B) is modeled by bombers participating in regular attacks. If you think about it, purpose B) is very similar to naval bombardment. As there is clearly no advantage of supporting amphibious landing of 1 transport with 12 cruisers (and OOB rules nicely model for this by limiting the max number of bombarding warships), there clearly shall not be much difference in a land attack of 2 inf supported by 12 bombers and 2 inf supported by 2 bombers.

So the suggested house rule is: Attacker may bring at most as many strategic bombers into an attack as many land units he has brought or in a case of a naval battle as many warships (including subs) he has brought.

This house rule shall have almost no impact on conventional strategies*****. It will only start to matter with stacks of bombers. Suddenly one cannot simply deter Allied fleet off Gibraltar with tons of bombers, one cannot simply keep Normandy safe by 15+ bombers and 3 mechs in W Germany. One cannot threaten air-blitz of London,Cairo,Moscow, and Gibraltar by simply stacking bombers to Rome. Germany will have to think how to bring land and naval units into its battles. Allies in Europe will be able to move small armies around not worried about being killed by 1 mech and 10 bombers.

Also with this HR one can still possibly try to stack bombers, bomber stack shall still work fine against Moscow as Germany has tons of land units on that front. But defense of western front will be much harder.

*****The impact on conventional strategies is that it would not allow clearing blockers and lone TT’s with bombers only. It would also make unusable “German bombers in Pacific” strategy. If one wants these still to be part of the game, then the house rule can be modified that a single bomber is allowed to participate in any battle regardless of what other units participate. Nice advantage of this rule is that it does not require any modifications to tripleA. Players just have to watch for not violating the rule.

EDIT: As per follow-up discussion I implemented the house rule such that bombers attack @ 0 but if paired 1:1 with any land units or warships (excluding carriers) they get +4 bonus to attack.