Scenerio: Would you take Kar in Rd 1?

[Mr. G]

@theSexualHarrassmentPanda:

I think what I’m having a real problem with is Panda wanting to play a PA game (which is fine) and gearing up to defend it, but not looking at the consequences of his defenses. Thus he could lightly defend Kar. Bait my a$$. He made a mistake, period. He’s lucky I really didn’t try to bury him.

Yeah it is bait. I don’t mind letting the Germans try this b/c it doesn’t help them in the long run. With the reasoning you’ve given there should be no way anyone could ever beat a PE bid, but it happens. And what’s more I don’t think BW would agree PE bids are unbeatable.

But the thing is, Panda…you didn’t set up your defense for a PE bid…if it were a true PE bid…you would’ve pulled out of Kar(I’m assuming)…in this game you didn’t…so he got the benefits of a PE bid without needing extra troops…

[Mr. G]

@theSexualHarrassmentPanda:

What you did is absolutely no different than what MrG and GWS did in recent games, and which you were supposedly against.

Whoa, don’t make it look like me and GWS think the same…we don’t…take a look at his game vs. CC…how many BB’s did he buy with Japan…5? 6? 7?..

[DarthMaximus]

Sheeesh it was 1 battle. Sorry.

What was really killer was I almost took it with all 4 ftrs and my bom. The last rd of combat had me getting my remaining hits, but you had only 8 pts left. You scored a 1 or a 2 on the last rd to force me to lose a plane, but I could only imagine your reaction if that happen. Oh man, I too would be pissed.

If you had bought 8 inf though you would have had 15 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr. I wouldn’t have been able to take no matter how much air I killed, also if you landed the 2nd ftr there I couldn’t have taken it, or even come close.

I just have one question, why set the trap if your not prepared to use it?

I was totally expecting a full strafe on Ukr with retreat to Kar, so your combined moves of Ukr and somewhat lightly defended Kar, I thought I could really cripple you early, cause I know you like Russia. I wanted to take away your strength, (or at least what I perceive to be your strength - Russia).

Your objection to the early Kar strike is entered into the permanent record.

Note to self: Never attack Kar prior to Rd 4.

[Mr. G]

@DarthMaximus:

I was totally expecting a full strafe on Ukr with retreat to Kar

What’s better with a no PE bid…STRONG ATTACK AND TAKE of Ukr…or STRONG STRAFE of Ukr…or a LIGHT/MEDIUM STRAFE/TAKE of Ukr???

[BlackWatch]

@Mr.:

@DarthMaximus:

I was totally expecting a full strafe on Ukr with retreat to Kar

What’s better with a no PE bid…STRONG ATTACK AND TAKE of Ukr…or STRONG STRAFE of Ukr…or a LIGHT/MEDIUM STRAFE/TAKE of Ukr???

Against an mt Euro bid (PA or mixed Africa/Asia), I’ll be going heavy into Ukraine every time 8 inf, 3 arm. trn, 2 ftr v baltic and sub v sub Wsp.

SHP will say that Germany’s response to a heavy take of Ukraine is a strafe to clear all but one armor - however the problem with that is that Germany cannot control the dice (in an ADS game, not the low luck roller), and Germany can easily “overtake” ukraine, meaning that all those yummy gray tanks are toast on Rus 2.

---

My odds calculator showed DM’s attack on kar to win with bmr, 3 ftr, so the “rolling up” by one unit is hardly way out of line. Egypt is another slight “roll up” but that’s the whole point of a dice game - dead center results don’t always happen, and if you don’t want someone to ‘take the bait’ don’t offer it.

DM - I have three games going right now - when I clear one, I’ll be happy to play a game. I do think you would find that MOST players in the clubs also enjoy the game far more than the points, but the points just give a way of tallying it all up. What can be even more fun is getting involved in various team games or tourneys.

BW

[DarthMaximus]

You’re the biggest whiner!
Boo hoo hoo, I got bad dice. :cry:

I just re-rolled the battle TWICE.

Both times I took it with 1 arm, 2 ftr, 1 bom.

Just as BW predicted.

So I only came out ONE unit ahead. If you can’t deal with a one unit difference then you aren’t very good player.

I beat you fair and square.

Your damn right I order the code red!!! Of course I wanted to beat you, and I did nothing deceitful.

I’ve NEVER EVER said I think PE is unbeatable. I said I don’t like playing it because it leads to shorter games. I didn’t place a PE bid.

It is not my fault you set the bait and then I took it. It was a very good trap. Don’t set the stupid trap if you don’t want people to take the bait.

I’m sorry your “invicible aura” was smashed here, but maybe this will teach you a lesson on not to underestimate your opponents.

I came out ONE unit ahead and your crying like I just rolled 6 ones with aa-fire or something.

Sheeesh, it was a frickin’ LL game. Deal with it.

[Mr. G]

@theSexualHarrassmentPanda:

That’s total bull sh** b/c if that is true then there is no way you should’ve done the attack you did do, as you should’ve gotten much worse than you did.[…] The fact is if we assume the same kind of dice you had which was the only way one can justify the attack you made you still would’ve been able to justify an attack against 15inf arm ftr. You’re using a circular argument now to defend the undefendable, if this weren’t true you’d be willing to play from a reroll which we both know you aren’t going to do as you can’t do that well again.

6inf 5arm 4ftrs bmb v 15inf arm ftr

round 2: 5arm 4ftrs bmb v 8inf arm ftr

round 3: 2arm 4ftrs bmb v 3inf arm ftr

round 4: arm 3ftrs bmb v ftr Taken w/ arm 2ftrs bmb

Note this was how the battle you did fight should’ve turned out.

Whoa, Whoa, WHOA, Panda….that is messed up…you say that he should’ve done worse than he actually did…but when you put MORE DEFENDING UNITS into the picture, he does just as well as what actually happened??? That makes NO sense…you are contradicting yourself…

[DarthMaximus]

DM - I have three games going right now - when I clear one, I’ll be happy to play a game. I do think you would find that MOST players in the clubs also enjoy the game far more than the points, but the points just give a way of tallying it all up. What can be even more fun is getting involved in various team games or tourneys.

BW

Great. I look forward to it.

I’ve got a game with Mr. G going right now and a couple 5 player games going here, although one is all but over and has been for a while, and the other is just dragging along.

Just let me know whenever you got time. Don’t worry either, I won’t use any “Crazy take Kar strats” :wink:
Apparently, I only use this secret tactic to make SHP mad.

What can I say, he set a very good trap.

[DarthMaximus]

Mr. G,

I thought he was saying that I was full of baloney because I said I wouldn’t attack if he had 15 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr.

But hey, he’s right looking at those numbers maybe I would’ve have.

Again, that only shows a 1 unit difference. That should hardly be a game breaker for someone of his “supposed” skill.

[Mr. G]

DM- what I was trying to say was this:

He claims you should’ve done more poorly on dice rolls with his original placement…but when he puts more inf there, he said you would’ve done the same damage…doesn’t make sense

[DarthMaximus]

Ah, I see.

[BlackWatch]

I went back and checked my simulator again with 6 inf, 5 arm, 5 ftr, bmr v 13 inf, 2 arm, ftr, AA.

I ran 1,000 simulations twice, and one time came up with taken by arm, 2 ftr, bmr, the other taken by arm, 3 ftr, bmr. It doesn’t get any closer than that to dead center results. In each case the three likeliest results were; taken by arm, bmr and 2,3 or 4 ftr.

On top of which, it was 70% to win each time. Obviously if the early rolls started downhill, Germany could still retreat to EEu, salvaging a game of it.

SHP, I’ve seen you advocate a smaller version of this odds battle (5 inf, arm v 3 inf, ftr Manchuria) for Russia 1. Japan sets this “bait” with a non-bid of units in Manchuria, but only in bid games. You set it deliberately through your purchase and move decisions - I would say at this point you need to suck it up and admit you made a bad decision and bad assessment of your opponent’s risk tolerance levels. (P.S. I also agree with you that the game is not over for the Allies - they still have a viable game, which proves the “depth” the Allies have with respect to moves or rolls gone bad - if this battle had gone badly for the Axis, rather than dead center, the Axis was probably done for, barring very cheap, very early major techs)

Also - you totally misread my game style. I prefer to win a game in the opening two to three rounds of play. I will take on select 50-50 battles in those rounds if I see an opportunity to gain a significant lead. Sometimes it then takes a long time for my opponents to concede (but that is entirely up to them - I never ask for a concession).

BW

[DarthMaximus]

(to SHP)

Lol! (at that last part)

You are by far the most difficult person I’ve come across on a MB. I mean that in a good way.

Have ever seen that Monty Python where they go to the argument clinic? Classic stuff. :D That what this feels like.

So, fine.
I wanted to beat you.
It was a desperate move.
It was lucky.
I’d never do it again (even though I did re-rolled it twice and had the emails sent, I didn’t want to over load your email.) I thought that would at least show that it was that out of the ordinary.
And you got jobbed in Ukr and Egy too.

Either you play to win or you don’t play,

But I just did, and you critcized my move.

I said I’d play a “no luck” rd 1, I’m just not too familiar with it, If you want me to play a 5 - 2 bid with 1 IPC to Ger, fine. If Kar is off limits for rd 1 and 2 fine.

Remember we had a “no strafing” rule in our first game for the first 3 rds. That was made clear, but I didn’t know Kar was off limits this game.

I’ll play any scenerio with anyone, just as long as it is made clear prior to R1.

As for time frame of my games, I’ll play as Axis as long as Germany holds it’s core IF Japan has control of Novo (and or Kaz and Eve), but If Japan is stuck at Yak or Sin and Germany just lost EE, then it is probably game over.

I’ve never made any secrets about how I like longer games, when both sides are battling over position.

I mean there are ways the Axis can win long games (obviously the Allies have the adv but still…), ie Japan helps out in Afr and gets it’s fleet to the Med, or Japan has her ftrs sitting on Ger, or you do a 1-2 late rd shot on the Atlantic fleet to maybe open the door, lots of stuff. I like games where both sides earn in the 70’s and you have to use tactics and strat to break the stalemate.

There is lots of variety and that is fun for me, which is why I vary my moves. I don’t want to get pigeon holed and have my opponents say “Oh DM, he ALWAYS attack Ukr with 7 inf, 3 arm or always fortifies Fic instead of Man” I like variety, for no other reason then to change what the game looks like, if I lose fine, but I’m always tinkering with stuff.

Anyway, sorry for any misunderstanding, and like I said I’m open for any game any scenerio against anybody as long as the guidlines and rules are set out and made clear.

Edit:

I see BW snuck in a post

[OpTorch]

Always enjoy these kind of threads. :D

[DarthMaximus]

Then why did you deviate from that so greatly? Why is it that you only deviate from this against me?

Huh? We played 1 game, and we were the opposite sides.

There is no record of us playing. You can take the games between me CC or others al you want, but

1. they were RR
2. they were ADS
3. I really am deathly afraid of AA-fire in ADS.
4. there were more inf there, and in ADS that is a wonderful deterrant

I rarely if ever use SBR, but in LL I found there is no threat to the bomber so you can use them all you want.
But you would argue that I only do this against you and it some how deceitful.

If some other player left the the same defense as you did in Kar, I’d do the samething, however I won’t be bullied into making a move.

The key to be a good A&A player is not to be predictible. Now whenever someone plays me they have to worry about a Kar strike, or maybe they leave it as bait. Regardless, maybe this in turn forces them to leave an extra inf behind or do something slightly different giving an adv to me.

See if we were to ever play again (which seems doubtful), you wouldn’t know if I would attack Kar or not. Maybe you set it up the same way but, this time I have my sub. Well now I don’t have to do Kar. Or maybe you try and bait me more, but instead I go for Syr, or maybe my sub retreats and I hit the US tran, or maybe I just kill the Med fleet.

My point is I don’t ever want my opponent to know how I play. If that means I lose a game then so be it.

Don’t forget I foolishly lost 2 or so US trns in our first game, and against Mr. G I went to Fic and gave him a shot at my Japanese trns. I play reckless at times, you would call it desperate, but I call it aggressive.

And if you’d surrender as the Axis by rd 6 if they haven’t taken Moscow, that justifyies my move even more as well as a PE bid.

I’ve also never said PE is unsportsman like. I said I don’t like it, because I like longer games.

That is my whole point about a 24 bid. If you give someone 24, it’s better to just play PE and get the game over with one way or another.

But with a 21-22 bid, then you can open up the Afr bid or split bids.

Seriously if you’re Axis and getting 24-25, it only makes sense to go for the quick win. Why waste time in Afr? Throw down on Ukr, and go for the win. That is not fun, IMO.

My bid was different, I gave myself many option, stay in Afr, go to Europe, I even gave Japan several options. I didn’t want you to know what I was going to do. That’s how you keep your opponent on his heals.

[Mr. G]

Panda, after my game with DM, would you like to play a game….I would play with 22-25(whatever I need to learn about) bid…I wouldn’t mind to get some tips and such…it would be an informal game, I don’t know if you want moves to be taken back or whatnot…we could figure that out later…but I’m just letting you know I’m up for a game…

[DarthMaximus]

But using a white elephant to throw someone offguard is kind of janky as well, and especially in an unranked game.

But I only play unranked games and only play at this site. So if there is some Club etiquette where this (using different strats to set up other games) is looked down upon I’m just not familar with that.

I would play ranked games if challeged (or someone really insisted) at FoE or whatever, but I’m not sure if I’d ever be an active club player.

Now if I had made the defense not as strong you’d have a better case, but as I see it no player in ADS or LL would ever attack 16 units in Karelia b/c I’ve never seen it before.

Really??? I’m being serious here. Now, I’m really intrigued.
Nobody???

Cool, can we call this the DarthMaximus move? :D
Pass the word around the Clubs!

Anyway, I ment no harm by my move or had no malicious intent. Remember we also had mulligans. I figured if Kar went bad I could re do it. So, I had 2 chances to come out better than avg. No that that helps much.

I just wish you asked me to tkae it back before calling it desperate and a cheap shot or gamble.

If you remember, you asked me to take back a move in our first game. My defense of Yak with Rus. You suggested bring over another ftr.
While I objected at first you explained how you’d take 7 inf for 4, I may have wanted the trade at first (a may still put up a bit of a stink :D ), but ultimately I agreed and we played on.

All you had to do was ask me to take it back and say how you really wanted to show how a PA game is played. I would’ve went 5-2 bid and all would’ve been dandy. But your initial comments got me in defensive mode and I will defend my moves, even if they are bad ones.

I even went back and redid G1 on Fri, maybe I should’ve done that sooner but I was a bit ticked earlier.

Whether you want to continue or not is up to you. I found it a bit silly that I was getting mad over an A&A game that is played on a MB. :D

So I’m ready to move. I’ll gladly discuss the move and it’s merits (and pros/cons) but there was no evil or vindictive intent behind it. It was just a move.

[DarthMaximus]

No prob. Maybe we can shoot for summer sometime.

Its not club ettiquette its general ettiquette. If you agree to play someone you should not be playing them to set them up for something in some future game.

Just for clarification, I don’t me you specifically, I’m not trying to “set” you up for anything. I doubt I could anyway as you’ve probably seen everything. But because most of my games are posted here for anyone to see, I figure if I always use the exact same strat that would put me at a disadvantage. My opponent could simply see that I always do something and be prepared.

For instance I played 4 games with Kobu, while he won the first 2, I won the next 2, but all 4 games I played very very differently. One game was pretty standard, one game was tech heavy on both sides, one time I used a KJF and another was a tech game but not all out tech. The point was Kobu used the same strat all 4 games, but after the first 2 games it ceased working. I just don’t want to fall into the category of being a predictible player.

[221B Baker Street]

Panda wrote:

there are people in the clubs who purposely make uncharacteristic moves just so that in the rematch they can throw someone off. IMO that’s a really bs way to play.

Why is this a BS way to play? I will usually try to mix things up a bit when I play. What I do not want is for someone to be able to predict what I will do. I will not play to deliberately lose or to make stupid moves,(if you mean this then I agree) but just different things and depending on the game and my opponent perhaps even not the most optimal winning strategy. And if someone is able to throw me off in this manner, then I think I deserve it, not being able to forsee a different possible move from my opponent.

[General William Sherman]

I almost never play the same way twice. People have criticized me in the past and said I lost games due to my not using common tactics. Of course this is true, but a game isn’t very fun if you always play the same… And that’s all this is… A game. :D