@The_Good_Captain
Thanks Cap
Leap Frog
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has anyone ever successfully completed a leap frog tactic in play? I’ve heard it in practice but never seen it worked out
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I’ve done it before, i believe. This sounds like the art of attacking a territory from multiple points and then retreating into 1 territory thus leap-frogging the disputed territory, no?
I believe i’ve done this as Germany to pull an arm from FIN to EEU safely, and i’m certain i’ve done this as Russia several times.
if you were discussing a different tactic, then i apologise. -
no you were correct. I have heard of one move of britian attacking Finland-norway and retreating to Keraila SSR but then that would be an Amphibious Assault and I know you cannot retreat with one of those(Amphibious Assauslt)…so I want to know; when you did it was it useful?
Thanks
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@Anonymous:
no you were correct. I have heard of one move of britian attacking Finland-norway and retreating to Keraila SSR but then that would be an Amphibious Assault and I know you cannot retreat with one of those(Amphibious Assauslt)…so I want to know; when you did it was it useful?
Thanks
it worked - i.e. it got my tank over to consolidate with my other troops when i attacked KAR.
It also worked when as Russia i did a strafing maneuver to consolidate my troops as well. Again, i can not remember the circumstances. It should work if:- cost out the cons (i.e. how many troops you stand to lose by this maneuver),
- cost out the benefits (i.e. how many of the enemy’s troops will you kill, and how much more effective will your new force be. Also are you leaving somthing that is easy pickings for the enemy).
- be wary of taking a territory unintentionally. This can be a pain in the ass and defeat the reason for the leap-frog maneuver in the first place.
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Yes, leap froging is very easy to accomplish and come’s in handy. Simpy move your unit that was on a country to another country next, produce a unit and move it on the neutral country
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As noted, Germany getting its armour out of F/N.
Russia facing a large PE bid in Europe, taking F/N on R1 with its armour then extracting them on R2 back to Russia, after Ger has moved in force to Karelia on G1.
Japan hitting a large Allied force in Caucusus with a large force in Persia and air coming from/thru Ukraine….solely to reinforce a Ger split stack move in EE & Ukr.
Japan hitting Russia with air coming from Karelia, solely to reinforce Ger in Karelia as the Axis are desperately trying to finish Russia before the Allies capture Berlin.
In the CD, 3rd Edition with Aerial retreat on UK 1, where a UK tranny survives and they wish to amphib F/N. Send the bomber thru the Baltic so that your Ftrs can retreat there and then land in Karelia if the battle goes bad (CD problem).
Allies…when surrounding Berlin to reposition large stacks to WE or EE. Doesn’t happen too often, but a few odd circumstances…like needing to block a Jap horde soon to arrive from Karelia from reinforcing Germany.
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I´ve heard the tactic used to get arm out of Fin-Nor (as CC describes), but I have never found it to be worth it. The amount of inf that you (Germany) lose compared to how many Russia loses cannot compensate an armor, which only costs two more IPCs than an inf.
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Hey, I didn’t know that was actually legal, but it’ll be interesting to add to my list of strategies the next time I get a chance to play.
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According to the 2nd Edition Rules Clarification from Milton-Bradley … using the leap frog tactic is illegal, unless the territory that you retreat to also had at least one unit attacking. See below:
Retreats
There are four big things to remember:
1. Only an attacker can retreat.
2. A retreat can be made only after a defender defends - after ANY round of combat.
3. An attacker cannot retreat from NOTHING - that is, if all the defending units are destroyed in the embattled territory or sea zone, then the attacking forces are stuck there - no retreating allowed.
4. Partial retreats are never allowed except for subs. All attacking units must retreat together BACK to one adjacent friendly territory from which any one of the attacking units came. What follows are special retreating issues with submarines and air units. -
Which is the whole point in using/routing air to attack from the territory you wish to retreat too (occassionaly armour or sea units as well…anything over 1 movement point).
Which makes all the above examples perfectly legal.
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Which is why you might see these PBEM orders…
Combat:
Sinkiang: 5 Inf Novo, 3 Arm Russia (thru Kazahk) vs 6 Inf.
Thus, allowing the retreat to Kazahk…why? To avoid the Jap counter from Yakut for instance. This is not a leap frog, but it is the same principle.
Now, imagine a Russian Ftr added to the orders…currently stationed in India defending a UK IC for instance.
add: 1 Ftr (India)
Now the entire force can retreat to India…and that is a leap frog :)
or,
Combat:
Russia: 18 Inf & 5 Arm Novo, 2 Arm Persia (thru Caucusus), 2 Ftrs Persia (via Caucusus & Karelia) vs 23 Inf & 4 Ftrs.
In this scenario, Germany holds Karelia…the Axis want to do a 1-2 punch with Japan leading the way…but sizeable US forces are in Finland. Japan wants to whittle Russia, but retreat to Karelia to defend the Germans, expecting a US attack on the Germans in Karelia. These orders give Japan 3 possible retreat squares…Novo, Caucusus, Karelia. Japan attacks for a few rounds then retreats to Karelia. The expected US counter occurs in Karelia. The Axis take all the Jap ground forces as the first casualties. The US attack fails, as expected, but worse than otherwise because of the Jap units there. The German attack force remains strong. Russia builds it’s few Inf. Germany takes Russia.
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For the MOST PART you are correct …
In the above instances (that were clear on this issue) – it is legal; however, it is IMPORTANT to clarify this rule NOW … to prevent misinterpretation LATER.
There were portions that were unclear or omitted what other troops were attacking, such as the following – posted by you Guest (assuming you are the same Guest that I’m quoting from):
@Anonymous:
Russia facing a large PE bid in Europe, taking F/N on R1 with its armour then extracting them on R2 back to Russia, after Ger has moved in force to Karelia on G1.
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Yes, twas me…I’ll just assume that you don’t know what a large PE bid is…otherwise, it’s obvious from the example that all Russkie forces were retreated to Caucusus or Russia, except those that took Finland, and 1 Inf to hold valiantly in Karelia…with new builds placed in Russia…and all forces attacked Karelia on R2 to extract the stranded F/N armour. Anything less against a large PE bid moved in-force to Karelia on G1 would be a suicide attack :)
So actually, I am entirely correct :) although I grant that you might not have known what I was talkin about.
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If you say so – but you’re right … I don’t know what a PE bid is – care to enlighten me?
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no worries Mistabiggs :) I am just pulling your chain a little…
You are right that in these discussions there are so many variables, rules etc that precision is pretty important.
Cheers
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:roll:
Well … i would still like to know what a PE bid is – is there somewhere else this is discussed perhaps? -
I have posted on PE bids on this board in the past, so you can search for more info….but basically it is this…
either 2nd or 3rd edition rules, where Russia is NOT restricted. This typically involves large bids 19-23 in 2nd & 17-18 in 3rd. So basically about 6-7 extra Inf for the Axis.
PE stands for Power Europe where most or all of the bid is placed in Europe. Most often this is something like 6 or 7 Inf in EE, or Ukr, or spread between F/N, EE and Ukr.
A lot of people fear these bids because of the possibility of a G1 dice rush at Karelia…however, that’s not actually the intent at high levels of play. The point is to allow the Axis to dictate the play early in Europe and place extreme pressure on Russia. This forces different reactions from the Allied player than in ‘normal’ games.
Lots of differing possibilities can occur. Stalingrad 43 is a variation where the entire bid is in Ukraine…depending upon what Russia does, it is possible to move a large German force to Caucusus immediately including using your tranny and then immediately landing 1/2 Jap Ftrs.
A more common possibility is to pyschologically force the immediate R1 or R2 withdrawl from Karelia and push the entire German army into Karelia…effectively cutting the F/N shuck schuck pipeline.
Basically it’s a nerves game…who blinks first. But the strategy is to force the Allies to respond in Europe, whereas they normally are passive there and simply establish a pipeline and fight mostly in Africa/Asia. Again, a solid Axis player is not simply trying to gang rush Karelia but is forcing changes in style/tempo. Many Allied players simply don’t know how to react when Russia is cut off early from the pipeline. Germany is foregoing the points in Africa…but if you think about it…they can capture/trade Karelia & Caucusus & Finland so it makes up for Africa.
It’s a bit of a different playout, with a number of subtle and intricate tradeoffs. Often the Russkies are barely hanging on against the Germans and Japs early, while the Allies are desperately trying to get into WE early and relieve the pressure.
Anyway…worth a try if you get bored of other playouts. Just remember don’t just gang rush Karelia on G1…it’s actually the threat of what Germany can do that forces different Allied play, rather than a one turn dice battle that is more fun. For instance, it’s one of those games where you can acquire a lot of German armour instead of just infantry and where if you get into Karelia you really need to manage where those Arm are located…so you can threaten Russia…but also need to hold WE and Berlin. Fun stuff if you try it out.
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nerves . . . .
This may come into play, however not if you’re using some powers of analysis/maths etc. I tend only to “blink” when trying to determine the odds of a battle and its aftermath - call it a tic. -
hehe…good point cc,
however, if you do the math you’ll find the odds are really really close (meaning potentially worth it) at several key points with PE games. Since the outcome of larger battles is then likely defined by the actual first round or two of combat and the standard deviation from those is quite wide…it becomes do you wanna stay and fight to hold Karelia and take the risk the enemy doesn’t attack or not? The odds are that close and it occurs for both the Russkies and the Germans, and in both Karelia & Russia. This is what differentiates the PE game.
In ‘normal’ games the odds are almost always in the Allied favour in Europe and the Germans are forced into an early defensive shell. This playout lets them dictate the tempo early and force those serious considerations backed by the odds far earlier and in different ways than in normal playout. Just add 6-7 Germans at setup and run the odds for an all-out gang rush at Karelia on G1…as the Russians and knowing these odds…what are you going to do? Almost anything that Russia does/doesn’t do on R1 becomes risky…whereas the standard stack of Karelia usually has little risk. And what then if Germany does an armour heavy buy on G1? Chances are you will have to give serious consideration to vacating Karelia on R1 or R2. Or what if Germany actually runs Stalingrad 43…do you actually hit Caucusus? Do you risk disaster? But if you don’t then how do you hold both Moscow and Karelia against a G2 attack? Gee, should you even buy the standard 8 Inf on R1 or is it better/necessary to build 3/3 on R1 as you might need the counter-attack punch? With the odds much different than standard play…you better be careful. The point here is that the playout/odds are different in Europe early and those odds are really close…which means that you need to test it out in a few games to get the flavour and then establish your risk tolerance for potentially early game winning/losing battles with very dicey odds (pun intended). It’s just an alternative to standard playout.
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