I’m sure this has been brought up before, but can’t we pull out the troops from Germany while still staying with NATO? Or at least greatly reduce that amount?
I agree. I think the troops in Germany are useless there. Its not an insult to Nato to put most of them elsewhere. We’ll still have a large military presence in Europe.
Thats because alot of them have bought into the idea that there is no differnce between the North and South. Some even believe that North Korea is a better place than the South. How anybody could think that North Korea is some paridise is beyond me. Maybe we should pull out and let the North take over, then we can see what most of the Southern Koreans would say. The ones who would still be breathing of course.
And that would be in the interest of American national security how? The South Koreans believe in reunification with North Korea. They want to help out their “friends” on the other side of the DMZ. I doubt a single South Korean would rather be in North Korea than South Korea.
You would think that Yanny, but talk to some left of center Koreans and u will be suprised. Believe it or not there still a few hard core leftists who believe North is some type of Workers Paradise. That North Korea is really not that bad. When I talk to college studints where I live they tell me that the Info on the North is Right Wing Propganda. They say nobody is starving and if there is its cause the U.S. is doing it. Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe them but trying to tell them that the people in North Korea are for the most part not happy is like talking to a brick wall!!!
By the way Yanny if you couldn’t tell I was not serious about letting the North take over. I was trying to make a point on how some South Koreans don’t take their freedoms seriously enough.
After rethinking about it I believe most should either be sent to the mid east for garrison duties or sent to South Korea. Just keep a few troops for training in Germany. Besides if u ask the average german I think they see their use as being over. The Cold War is over. However Ozone27 I do believe 100,000+ troops would make some difference in a NON-NUCLEAR WAR in the Korea area.
Of course 100,000 troops are very useful in a non-nuclear war, but in such a war, North Korea would stand virtually NO CHANCE–that’s why they developed nukes in the first place: to maintain leverage in a post-Cold War world. Everyone knows that given the hardships of day-to-day life in North Korea, the state would collapse within a few months of serious fighting with the West, possibly immediately. There’s NO WAY if war broke out, NK would allow it to develop along strictly conventional lines. They would either have to use their nukes or give up, simple as that. I’m not saying the NKs are wimps–just that they would have no realistic chance of defeating the US unless they used nuclear weapons. In this case 100,000 troops would make no difference…
As far as Germany goes–quite the contrary; most Germans do NOT want the American troops to leave because the US bases mean mega-$$$ to the German economy. Closing these bases would cause an outcry there similar to when Bill Clinton tried in vain to downsize the military here. Sure, peaceniks everywhere hate military bases, but in Germany most people appreciate the US presence…
What I wonder is what the strategic reason we are still so heavily deployed in Germany is? I’m sure its not just to make the Germans happy. Does anyone know the strategy involved?
Ozone27
@TG:
But does S. Korea want our troops there? A lot of them would say, “no.”
Then screw South Korea. Let’s take our troops out of that whole mess and see how long it takes them to come begging for our support… :evil: Maybe then they’ll appreciate the lives we’re risking, a little bit more.
As far as Germany goes–quite the contrary; most Germans do NOT want the American troops to leave because the US bases mean mega-$$$ to the German economy. Closing these bases would cause an outcry there similar to when Bill Clinton tried in vain to downsize the military here. Sure, peaceniks everywhere hate military bases, but in Germany most people appreciate the US presence…
Mega-$$$? Well, the garrison cities are happy to have the soliders close, true, because they support the local economics. but for the “mega-$$$”…… ahem… ever been here? What are the mean wages of the soldiers over here, esp. compared to the local mean income?
Anyway, we would welcome the soldiers more if no such things would happen as kids of soldiers throwing rocks from bridges onto heavy traffic Autobahns. Very funny :evil:, just a single case, but that’s what you need to shift public opinion, if it is handled “properly” by the media.
Of course 100,000 troops are very useful in a non-nuclear war, but in such a war, North Korea would stand virtually NO CHANCE–that’s why they developed nukes in the first place: to maintain leverage in a post-Cold War world. Everyone knows that given the hardships of day-to-day life in North Korea, the state would collapse within a few months of serious fighting with the West, possibly immediately. There’s NO WAY if war broke out, NK would allow it to develop along strictly conventional lines. They would either have to use their nukes or give up, simple as that. I’m not saying the NKs are wimps–just that they would have no realistic chance of defeating the US unless they used nuclear weapons. In this case 100,000 troops would make no difference…
Well, if North Korea got the jump on us, like in the Korean war, they might be able to break through into South Korea and maybe occupy it. Thats a big maybe, but it would make the war a lot harder. And, North Korea (China too perhaps) could possibly threaten Japan with Nukes if they let us use their air bases. That would be a scary situation.
I think China is considered too much a threat unless someone not-so-sensible is in command on the US side.
The conflict there can become very interesting: such a blunt diplomacy (most of the time) as shown against the Iraq will probably lead into a desastrous scenario (with China being heavily insulted and more or less forced to stay on N.Korea’s side). Luckily, it seems like the US leaders are aware of this, and having a more careful approach to this topic. But if they fall back to this “we are the only superpower; obey or be destroyed; my way or the highway”-attitude, then any resulting war will be caused not only by the N.Koreans, but by the US as well, and IMO it would be caused mainly by the US then.
A war between North Korea and South Korea has 2 main scenarios for it.
SCENARIO A: We attack first to take out their nuclear program, either in a mass invasion or some type of commando raid with special forces.
Either option would result in a large war. Although the commando raid would probably result in the program being destoryed with few North Korean losses, the North would respond with a mass rocket & artillery attack we would probably respond then with air power, then the North would invade the South. And then you would have a large land war. And with a U.S. led mass invasion I really dont need to explain how that would work, I’ll just say the U.S. led invasion would be done with our famous divisions 101st, 82nd, 10 mount. and others of course. Along with some South Korean units and British units. I would say Canadian but I have a feeling in this one they may stay out but who really knows!!
SCENARIO B: In a North Korean invasion of the South, the communists would hit hard with surprise artillery & rocket attacks with command raids deep in the allied rear. Then they would follow with mass tank formations backed up with Infantry in APCS and maybe some trucks (I don’t know if the North can afford to APC the entire army so I’ll say they may use trucks), they may even try some type of small sea invasion with a regiment or 2 to outflank a key area. Their first thing they would want to do would be attack U.S. and South Korean air planes on the ground. I bet some of their commando raids would try this!
But in either scenario one thing is certain China would get in the war, although i believe they would keep it quiet. As not to mess up their trade with the U.S. China would probably support the North with “volunteers” as in the first Korean war.
Pack em up and move em out.
@F_alk:
Mega-$$$? Well, the garrison cities are happy to have the soliders close, true, because they support the local economics. but for the “mega-$$$”…… ahem… ever been here? What are the mean wages of the soldiers over here, esp. compared to the local mean income?
Anyway, we would welcome the soldiers more if no such things would happen as kids of soldiers throwing rocks from bridges onto heavy traffic Autobahns. Very funny :evil:, just a single case, but that’s what you need to shift public opinion, if it is handled “properly” by the media.
As a matter of fact I have been to Germany, twice. The consensus of the people I spoke to around the Hamburg area (including my close friends) was that they don’t want the US bases closed because they mean a great deal of money & jobs to German people & contractors. I’m not talking about nickel-and-dime stuff like souvenirs the individual soldiers buy etc, we’re talking building contracts, civilian labor & experts & so on. Maybe “mega-$$$” is a subjective term, but in any case if these US bases go, a lot of Germans will lose their jobs.
As far as kids throwing rocks off overpasses–that’s pretty annoying, but kids get into trouble like that everywhere & the world goes on. I’m sure plenty of Germans would like the US troop presence curtailed or even eliminated, but certainly not over silly stuff like that…
JMO
Ozone27
Keep in mind, Germany is our key base for the entire Europe and Middle East. When a soldier is injured in Afganistan, he is brought to Germany.
Maybe we should keep our infrastructure there for command and control purposes and move the actual troops out? It would cost a lot of money to relocate all that infrastructure to Turkey or Italy or somewhere.
As a matter of fact I have been to Germany, twice. The consensus of the people I spoke to around the Hamburg area (including my close friends) was that they don’t want the US bases closed because they mean a great deal of money & jobs to German people & contractors. I’m not talking about nickel-and-dime stuff like souvenirs the individual soldiers buy etc, we’re talking building contracts, civilian labor & experts & so on. Maybe “mega-$$$” is a subjective term, but in any case if these US bases go, a lot of Germans will lose their jobs.
Ok, I am sure that the people in the Hamburg area do not know that much about american soldiers. Hamburg was UK occupied territory, plus the closest Uk base is in Lower Saxony. For the “nickel and dime” stuff: Usually, the US bases are more in the countryside, so for those living there, the bases are important: As well with the “every day retail” of, say clothes or whatever, as with the building contracts and civilian labor. Experts? What kind of experts? I don’t think that you talk about any high tech equipment …. what would you need these experts for, especially people who do not have an US passport?
So, yes: mega-$$$ is subjective, as is “a lot of Germans” losing their jobs. How many would that be? 50,000? 100,000? more or less? I would think it is more towards the 50,000s
As far as kids throwing rocks off overpasses–that’s pretty annoying, but kids get into trouble like that everywhere & the world goes on. I’m sure plenty of Germans would like the US troop presence curtailed or even eliminated, but certainly not over silly stuff like that…
ANNOYING? It is dangerous! Remember, there are cars going 130 km/h down there, and suddenly something crashes through the windscreen…. Had they been grown ups, that would have been an attempted murder!
Sure, it happens “everywhere”, but the only other doing this stuff in Germany have been mentally disturbed people, or radical anti-democrats…
I think the US troops are still welcome (as they bring money in), but: it would be nice if the US (administration mainly) would treat us with respect and not as if you would still be occupying us.
Bah, my friends and I used to throw cherry coke water balloons at passing cars. Almost caused a few accidents, but nothing huge.
@F_alk:
As a matter of fact I have been to Germany, twice. The consensus of the people I spoke to around the Hamburg area (including my close friends) was that they don’t want the US bases closed because they mean a great deal of money & jobs to German people & contractors. I’m not talking about nickel-and-dime stuff like souvenirs the individual soldiers buy etc, we’re talking building contracts, civilian labor & experts & so on. Maybe “mega-$$$” is a subjective term, but in any case if these US bases go, a lot of Germans will lose their jobs.
Ok, I am sure that the people in the Hamburg area do not know that much about american soldiers. Hamburg was UK occupied territory, plus the closest Uk base is in Lower Saxony. For the “nickel and dime” stuff: Usually, the US bases are more in the countryside, so for those living there, the bases are important: As well with the “every day retail” of, say clothes or whatever, as with the building contracts and civilian labor. Experts? What kind of experts? I don’t think that you talk about any high tech equipment …. what would you need these experts for, especially people who do not have an US passport?
So, yes: mega-$$$ is subjective, as is “a lot of Germans” losing their jobs. How many would that be? 50,000? 100,000? more or less? I would think it is more towards the 50,000sAs far as kids throwing rocks off overpasses–that’s pretty annoying, but kids get into trouble like that everywhere & the world goes on. I’m sure plenty of Germans would like the US troop presence curtailed or even eliminated, but certainly not over silly stuff like that…
ANNOYING? It is dangerous! Remember, there are cars going 130 km/h down there, and suddenly something crashes through the windscreen…. Had they been grown ups, that would have been an attempted murder!
Sure, it happens “everywhere”, but the only other doing this stuff in Germany have been mentally disturbed people, or radical anti-democrats…I think the US troops are still welcome (as they bring money in), but: it would be nice if the US (administration mainly) would treat us with respect and not as if you would still be occupying us.
Niedersachsen is the area I’m talking about. We used to get peanut butter from a US base near Luneburg, so I know there is one :) . US military personnel: help me out! what am I talking about here?
As for your other comments, fair enough. Maybe German kids don’t do that kind of thing (Germans ARE more polite). But here in the US, thats pretty common…
I can’t argue w/ opinion, & you are a pretty reasonable person. Since neither of us know the exact economic impact, I guess we’ll have to leave it at that. But I fail to see what the qualitative difference is between the feelings of “the people in the countryside” and others…they are still people, whose opinions matter…
As for your last statement, I think that’s only fair. Total agreement.
Ozone27
P.S.–it’s a tad insulting that you would say people from Hamburg don’t know much about American soldiers. A.) It implies American soldiers are somehow not as good as UK soldiers. B.) It also rather denigrates the insight of people from Hamburg, many of whom I happen to like a great deal… :wink:
JMO
Well, if North Korea got the jump on us, like in the Korean war, they might be able to break through into South Korea and maybe occupy it. Thats a big maybe, but it would make the war a lot harder. And, North Korea (China too perhaps) could possibly threaten Japan with Nukes if they let us use their air bases. That would be a scary situation.
True.
But the NKs would have to kill a LOT of Americans along the DMZ–a lot of dead heroes killed in a sneak attack. That’s happened before (twice, not counting the sinking of the USS Maine, which has recently been proven to have been an accident), and the results are–as they say–history. The NKs drove us right off the peninsula (except for a small enclave) & we fought our way back again all across their country to total victory (till MacArthur went ahead & forced the ChiComs to come in in force). Think that couldn’t happen again? The NKs are stupider than I think they are if they think so…
Would the Chinese intervene again? That is the big question. I, of course, can’t say, but it is a distinct possibility. The NK’s (if they are planning a conventional war–which I doubt. I doubt they are planning ANY war) are certainly banking on it…
You are absolutely right about the threat to Japan. That is a scary prospect we cannot allow to happen…
Ozone27
Niedersachsen is the area I’m talking about. We used to get peanut butter from a US base near Luneburg, so I know there is one :) . US military personnel: help me out! what am I talking about here?
Oh, that first one is new to me. I knwo that there is a large military training ground used by the NATO forces (been there and told a US truck driver which way to go :) ). For the second: Ohm, how should i know :)
P.S.–it’s a tad insulting that you would say people from Hamburg don’t know much about American soldiers. A.) It implies American soldiers are somehow not as good as UK soldiers. B.) It also rather denigrates the insight of people from Hamburg, many of whom I happen to like a great deal… :wink:
Nah…. i am from Hamburg, so i think it’s not too insulting. And the first implication was not intended… and i can’t see that it is in there somewhere, i just wanted to say that the people can tell more about the troops stationed at their places, and that stationing depends mainly on whose occupation zone it was.
Is it really common in the states that kids do that kind opf nonsense? … I suppose the answer is yes. Another scary thign about the US, next to everyone having the right to own a gun. Just think of when “one leads to the other”, these kids get their first guns, will they necessarily become more sensible about endangering other people?
With all due respect F_alk the scary thing about europe is that people there live under a big government system, that promotes the idea of women not having children, no gun rights, high taxes, and a very one-sided political system!!! Now that is scary!! The people don’t realize how they are screwing themselves. In a 60 Minutes show they said in a few generations Italians could become a minorty in their own country, because of low birth rates and mass Non-Italian Immagration. When I lived in what was known as WEST GERMANY at the time i rarely meet a german women who had 2 or more kids. Not only that some had no kids and didn’t plan to have any!!! And if i brought it up they say that women having kids is so right wing???!!??? NOW THAT IS SCARY WOMEN OF EUROPE THINKING THAT HAVING KIDS IS SO RIGHT WING!! And now I have learned this problem is in Japan!!
Not trying to start a war with you F_alk but please don’t disrespect my country by saying that gun rights are scary!! The big mistake of the British was allowing the 13 colonies to have their guns. Do you know what happens when you give up your guns rights you are asking for a police state!!! I hope this doesn’t start any bad blood between us F_alk I do respect your replies here on the forum I just think that you wouldn’t want anybody saying anything bad about Germany( I wouldn’t either my family on my mothers side is from the bavaria area in Germany)so please don’t say anything bad about my country. I hope this isn’t taken as a flame of anykind. Please excuse the saying
Do you know what happens when you give up your guns rights you are asking for a police state!!!
AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA
ahhh
that was great.
thanks for the laugh.
How many gunless countries are police states now?? And iºm not talking about the little banana republics, but rather civilized countries.
I mean, Canada is not gunless, but it does not have the same gun-culture as the U.S., and my rights are not often trampled by “the man”.
As for the original thread, I think the troops should leave Germany, what are they defending against? Besides, the Germans are really being un-cooperative on the Iraq thing. They are within their right to sit by while the world goes to hell, but don’t stop others from putting out the fire.
As for guns being required to prevent a police state…… There are few guns in the EU and none are police states to my knowledge. I think having more guns in a nation then citizens is scarely, the US gun culture is scarey. I can say that and NOT disrespect the US. Not all disagreements imply disrespect… My sister thinks the US gun culture is scarey, she has lived there for nearly 20 years, has a US citizen for a child and a US citizen for her husband and I am fairly sure she respects them… :-)
I did not mean you have no gun rights you then get a police state what I meant was that if the government gets out of control then what do you do?? A disarmed people have no way to resist a government that decides what rights a people can have. And the high taxes that hard working Candians pay everyday is outragous. There is a reason why when ever you ask a Canadian why he moved to America its almost always the same thing TAXES!!!
You don’t consider the one-sided democracy that Europe has being a non-free democracy?? The parties are all left wing for the most part!! I don’t call that a free society, I know that will hurt some feelings on this forum but it has to be said. Europe is NOT a police state. But don’t say its free either, I have been there and talked to the people. And where I live we are getting all sorts of European immegrants. They say almost the samething: that Eroupean governments have gone to far to the left so they left NO PUN INTENDED!!!
Please tell me how a left only democracy is a good thing??
Before you bring up my democracy that I will submit MINE SUCKS AS WELL!!! THE DEMOCRAT PARTY AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTRY ARE RUINING MY COUNTRY!! THAT I WILL ADMIT!!!
