adolph nuttin up :)
Smoking
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This is going to sound really dumb and for that i am sorry but, how does one go about punishing the dead? I don’t mean it in a smart allek way, really curious what the penalty is.
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I don’t know, but if you’re some poor sucker who doesn’t actually kill themself, then you’re in trouble…(like if you jumped off a bridge, but didn’t die.) :(
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i (as a asmoker) wonder why “smoker-bashing” is that hip. I mean:
1)it’s an addiction, and that often is considered an illness/mental problem. You even find (for the famous and rich alcoholics and medicine abusers) clinics for them etc., only for smokers, it seems to be seen different.
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Alcohol kills quite a lot pf unrelated people as well, or how many people die on the streets because of drunk drivers? What is the effect of “second hand smoking” in open spaces anyway? I don’t have any trouble to go outside to smoke… but then, is outside considered a “public place”?
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What is the average dying age of smoker compared to a non-smoker? What are the costs of cancer operations etc. (for smokers) compared to the costs for treating the demented very old (non-smokers), the operation lasts a few hours, watching over people suffering from alzheimer lasts years? How much tax-income would be lost by losing the direct taxes on cigarettes, plus losing a whole branch of industry?
I have read (smoewhere) that smokers actually are very profitable in the above terms for the state and community… they pay taxes and health insurance, and then die early and rather quickly.
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@F_alk:
i (as a asmoker) wonder why “smoker-bashing” is that hip. I mean:
1)it’s an addiction, and that often is considered an illness/mental problem. You even find (for the famous and rich alcoholics and medicine abusers) clinics for them etc., only for smokers, it seems to be seen different.
Maybe because of the exhorbitant costs associated with these ideas. Also people don’t need this much intensive work usually. What these people need is a realization of what smoking does to them, to their wallet, their lungs, cardiovascular, mouth and throat, breasts, genitals, etc. systems, as well as to their children and spouses. Then they need a kick in the ass, and possibly one of the smoking cessation drugs (zyban, patch, gum, will power, etc.) or even join a “trying to quit smoking” group. Finally they need to try to quit about 5-7 times or so. This may involve many kicks in the ass, but many smokers ultimately “get it” (i.e. i am realizing that just because someone smokes does not make them a COMPLETE AND UTTER IDIOT - just somewhat more moronic).
- Alcohol kills quite a lot pf unrelated people as well, or how many people die on the streets because of drunk drivers? What is the effect of “second hand smoking” in open spaces anyway? I don’t have any trouble to go outside to smoke… but then, is outside considered a “public place”?
ahhh the classic distraction of the smoker who refuses to look at himself as having a problem - blame the other guy syndrome. Divert the issue by talking about alcohol/obesity/sunblock in a classic smokescreen to divert the issue. In the issue i brought up, the health inspector is treating public establishments (pubs/restaurants, etc.) which allow smoking in the same vein as those which supply poison water. Although i hate walking near someone who smokes outside, i have to concede that it will be a while until these people are killed/quit smoking etc.
- What is the average dying age of smoker compared to a non-smoker? What are the costs of cancer operations etc. (for smokers) compared to the costs for treating the demented very old (non-smokers), the operation lasts a few hours, watching over people suffering from alzheimer lasts years? How much tax-income would be lost by losing the direct taxes on cigarettes, plus losing a whole branch of industry?
I have read (smoewhere) that smokers actually are very profitable in the above terms for the state and community…… they pay taxes and health insurance, and then die early and rather quickly.
i don’t know the age, but there is a 1 in 3 chance that you’re little cancer pill - you know that thing that you are paying money to the tobacco companies to kill you with - is going to kill you.
Although in Canada taxes on cigarettes do not cover the health costs associated with smoking from a public point of view, you are right in that ultimately the my prove to be a cost benefit. The tobacco industry performed an analysis in Romania and found that the public actually saved money b/c of smokers. This is because as you say - people die before collecting much of their benefits - retirement and otherwise. Note that typically smokers are in the lower socio-economic levels (not always, of course) - people who are more prone to be sick, granted, but also typically people who suck off the system, or work as blue-collar workers (i.e. retire with some kind of pension). One might well argue that there is utility in smoking in this regard. I’m curious if they looked at the increasing predisposition for children with asthma and allergies, as well as other inflammatory syndromes and their costs on the health system, as well as other second-hand smoking diseases - lung cancer, etc. and their effects.
From a utility-point of view, who cares as long as they die after they contribute to the system right?
Yuck. From a bio/medico-ethical standpoint this is an abhorrent way of thinking. You might be able to justify this from your standpoint, and granted there are a lot of people out there of the mindset “let those idiots kill themselves off”, but i certainly don’t approach my work that way. The more patients i can “save” from their smoking, and the more i can take from the “evil tobacco companies” (there is your evil force FS), then the better i feel at the end of the day. -
Falk, theres a difference between Smoking and being Drunk.
Killing someone while drunk (driving) is illegal. You can be criminally punished for it. Killing someone while smoking (Cancer) is impossible to punish.
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@cystic:
and the more i can take from the “evil tobacco companies” (there is your evil force FS), then the better i feel at the end of the day.
ho. i agree tobacco companies are only a nuisance for humanity. With abortion and death penalty, it’s the third thign we agree on, i’m still not used to it. You should be pro-death penalty, pro-abortion and pro-smoking, all thing would be clear this way :)
Fin, theres a difference between Smoking and being Drunk.
Falk, not Fin.
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ya know, I dont like the argument that smoking kills others. It seems to be a, for lack of a better way to express myself, a “selective” killer.
I personally have never heard of someone getting cancer from it, however if there were ever canidates for it, it would be my cousins. They both lived at home until 19 while my aunt and uncle smoked like a tire fire, and yet they arent with cancer.
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(as a asmoker) wonder why “smoker-bashing” is that hip. I mean:
Hahahaha, my word of advice, F_alk, just continue smoking. :) Just don’t get too addicted and become a chain smoker, but just a puff once in a while is good. :) As long as you do it in the privacy of your own home or in a place away from others, I have absolutely no problem with it. ;)
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Anyone see that Seinfeld episode where Kramer turns his apartment into a smoking lounge? Classic episode. :D
Jerry tells Kramer his face looks like an old catcher’s mitt. Too funny! -
Falk, not Fin.
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err… oops )
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ya know, I dont like the argument that smoking kills others. It seems to be a, for lack of a better way to express myself, a “selective” killer.
I personally have never heard of someone getting cancer from it, however if there were ever canidates for it, it would be my cousins. They both lived at home until 19 while my aunt and uncle smoked like a tire fire, and yet they arent with cancer.
not yet anyway,
also you do not know what underlying physiology is mucked up either. Also 2 people do not make for statistical significance generally. -
Also 2 people do not make for statistical significance generally.
Dont recall saying that it did, just stating something.
Seems like if everyone who should have cancer did, there would be alot more dead people out there.
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Also 2 people do not make for statistical significance generally.
Dont recall saying that it did, just stating something.
Seems like if everyone who should have cancer did, there would be alot more dead people out there.
- sorry - too many people apply anecdotal evidence as statistically demonstrated stats - my bad.
- 20-30 years ago, a diagnosis of most cancers was a death sentance. we’ve made AMAZING jumps in treatment of many cancers. Invasive late-stage (and metastatic) cancers . . . well, lung cancer is too often one of those, and then its not too long . . . . Check out a paliative care unit one day. Have a chat with some of those guys (and girls) with lung cancer. Many MANY anecdotes.
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I personally have never heard of someone getting cancer from it
what? because you personally have never heard of it doesnt mean that it doesnt happen. ive never met someone who smokes crack, so it must not be real. come on, its a proven fact that smoking=cancer! and if you wanna smoke in your home, thats your right, but anyone who smokes around children should be shot. im serious. that is just as much child abuse as hitting, even more so because you are killing your child. who may one day smoke because of your example. of course, youll be dead and miss it, but it will happen. i think we should be nice to smokers, however, as long as they realize that it is a harmful activity, and are respectful of MY rights. smokers rights should never supercede nonsmokers rights, and as long as you understand that, we can be friends. sorry, i feel sort of strongly about this.
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@cystic:
ahhh the classic distraction of the smoker who refuses to look at himself as having a problem - blame the other guy syndrome. Divert the issue by talking about alcohol/obesity/sunblock in a classic smokescreen to divert the issue. In the issue i brought up, the health inspector is treating public establishments (pubs/restaurants, etc.) which allow smoking in the same vein as those which supply poison water. Although i hate walking near someone who smokes outside, i have to concede that it will be a while until these people are killed/quit smoking etc.
Well, i see myself as having a problem. I have an nicotine addiction, i tried to quit two times now, both didn’t work that long. To get back to your issue:I don’t mind not to smoke in closed buildings, and i would say that this health inspector is a bit overshooting: You don’t have to go to a pub that let’s other people smoke etc., but you have to use water quite a lot each day, without much choice of the supplier.
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Falk, theres a difference between Smoking and being Drunk.
Killing someone while drunk (driving) is illegal. You can be criminally punished for it. Killing someone while smoking (Cancer) is impossible to punish.
Good point. I’ll take that :)…
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- sorry - too many people apply anecdotal evidence as statistically demonstrated stats - my bad.
Sadly it’s often easier to convince people with anecdotal evidence that with real numbers.
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@F_alk:
@cystic:
ahhh the classic distraction of the smoker who refuses to look at himself as having a problem - blame the other guy syndrome. Divert the issue by talking about alcohol/obesity/sunblock in a classic smokescreen to divert the issue. In the issue i brought up, the health inspector is treating public establishments (pubs/restaurants, etc.) which allow smoking in the same vein as those which supply poison water. Although i hate walking near someone who smokes outside, i have to concede that it will be a while until these people are killed/quit smoking etc.
Well, i see myself as having a problem. I have an nicotine addiction, i tried to quit two times now, both didn’t work that long. To get back to your issue:I don’t mind not to smoke in closed buildings, and i would say that this health inspector is a bit overshooting: You don’t have to go to a pub that let’s other people smoke etc., but you have to use water quite a lot each day, without much choice of the supplier.
- Nicotine addiction. This should take you about 5-7 serious tries to overcome. Many people can’t do i alone (i.e. they need drugs/support groups/hypnotism, etc.)
- You don’t have to go into the pub, but if that pub has water or beer that is tainted with toxins, or if it pumped fumes into the atmosphere, you can be certain that (in Canada at least, and i’m guessing in Germany too) a health inspector will close the place down until it corrects. Why should this not be the same with smoking?
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@cystic:
- You don’t have to go into the pub, but if that pub has water or beer that is tainted with toxins, or if it pumped fumes into the atmosphere, you can be certain that (in Canada at least, and i’m guessing in Germany too) a health inspector will close the place down until it corrects. Why should this not be the same with smoking?
Well, if the health inspector finds the toxins becuase of the smokers, then it’s fine for me :)
Or else: you have to limit the number of “smokers at a time” to keep the tar etc. values below a certain threshold…. or bribe the inspector ;)…
Or: as a smoker, you could buy smoking time from non-smokers (just as the US want to buy the allowance to emit more CO2 from third world countries). :DSerious: I don’t mind if i am not allowed to smoke inside a pub. but be sure, that a considerable number of persons will then produce a smoke screen at the entrance.
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:( Im a nurse and i think smoking should not be aloud anywhere! i have taken care of all kinds of patients that have smoked in there lives and from smoking some have lung cancer -and other types of cancer that have to do with smoking. I dont smoke and i dont want lung cancer b/c all the other stupid idiots smoke thats why i want everywhere to be smoke free. its just like when women are pregnant and the smoke that smoke also goes straight to the babys lungs and thats not right for a baby to suffer b/c the parent wants there lungs to be full of it. and smoking also causes SIDS in babys when you smoke around a baby it effects there breathing and i know this b/c i went to nursing school and iam a nurse.
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