Indian Fleet Alternatives

[Hobbes]

@AxisBrutality:

Yes, I’ll try it out this weekend. Fleet to Med is good suggestion and with IC on Egypt, that will give Germany some nightmare scenarios. It’s a good build-up suggestion too. I was thinking of 5 tanks - 2 on Egypt and 3 on India on UK2, but I can try also what you suggested. FTRs can always fly to India to protect India before J2, so I can’t see Japan taking India on J2 anyway. By UK3, all Germans in Northern Africa will be dead unless Germany wants to fight there and that means less pressure on Russia.  The faster I can clear Northern Africa of Germany, the faster can India be re-inforced with units from Egypt. Those 2 FTR from London could also land on India or Egypt on UK2, and I could move 2-3 FTR from Egypt to India, so they kind of trade off. There is an alternative route 2 UK FTR can fly, if not Archangel then West Africa.

I would love to put pressure with the U.S. on Japan in this scenario since Japan is more “free” since we are focusing on Med-strategy here. Then Alaska IC seems tempting, only 2 spaces from Japan. I would not need Alaska IC if we go our regular “take out E-Indies and build tanks on India strategy” which is great strategy, but if we go Med-strategy, then I think Alaska pressure on Japan would be good, since Japan can not take India on J2, and at the same time, Japan would have to worry about 2 battleships or something being placed on Alaska on US2, which makes Japan think very hard on what they can do on J3, because USA will have some sick fleet on US3 to strike with from Alaska.

This strategy looks crazy enough to work actually. However… the Axis counter would be to consolidate all German units on Algeria on G2 and place the Japanese transports off on J2 FIC to threaten an amphibious landing  on either India or Egypt. Interesting… let us know if it worked.

[Guest]

@miamiumike:

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

What is difficult is making that first purchase for UK in India. If I knew my attack would work, buying a carrier and dd would make sense. You can land your surviving fighter on it, and if you position the Russian fighter, you can land it too - at least for one turn. Then, on turn 2, you could add to that fleet - I don’t think Japan could get through a 5-6 unit fleet AND have enough to take India as well? I do not have the numbers in front of me…

MM

Russian fighter goes to Egypt.  UK builds 3 destroyers in z35, strafes z37 with everything in range (including z39 transport) and then retreats to z35.  Japanese can sink that fleet but trading expensive ships and planes for destroyers.

[UrJohn]

@Vance:

Russian fighter goes to Egypt.  UK builds 3 destroyers in z35, strafes z37 with everything in range (including z39 transport) and then retreats to z35.   Japanese can sink that fleet but trading expensive ships and planes for destroyers.

That’s clever. If G1 doesn’t put you in danger of Sealion, then I’d propose a slightly different buy: CA, FTR & DD. Load up 2 INF on the AP. They’re not going to do much in Australia anyway. If you get lucky, then Japan will only get 2 hits. You can peel FTR and SS and retreat to 35. If Japan gets a lucky roll, then the AP from 35 might want to flee to 29 or 33 to avoid giving Japan an extra free bonus AP. Assuming Japan gets 2 hits, placement would leave you with DD, CV, 3 CA & 2 FTR on 35.

Let’s assume that you and Japan each got 2 hits on the strafing of 37, that Japan peeled FTR and tilted the BB, that you peeled FTR and SS, and that Japan wants to all out attack your navy. They’re 95% to win. That looks bad, but let’s look at the board immediately after. The total IJN is probably 2 BB, CV, CA, SS, 2 AP and whatever they bought. The total JAF is probably 2-3 FTR & a BMR. The US will have SS, 2 DD, CV, BB & 4 FTR in the Pacific theater at the start of US1. That’s pretty close to naval parity before the US has even spent an IPC.

I wonder how this would compare to the move of UK purchases CV SS FTR, fights to the death on SZ 37, and hopes that at least 1 FTR survives to land on the new CV in 35. In that scenario you would plan to put everything on 35 if you cleared 37, but you’d probably place the CV & SS on 7 if you got rockstomped in 37.

Also, all this depends on how SSR1 & G1 go. If Germany has a huge stack of FTR on Ukraine at the end of G1, then I’m probably buying CV & DD for 7 and 3 INF for India.

[Guest]

I like the idea of losing fighter instead of cruiser like you said.  Probably go with 1 fighter and 2 destroyers ($4 cheaper) and end up with 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 2 transports in z35.  That’s 7 units in the water instead of the 6 I would have got with my 3 destroyers.

I would leave the australians where they are though.  If you load them onto transports and attack z37 in combat movement phase and then retreat to z35 they have already moved that turn and they will not be able to unload in India as a NCM.  That would be 2 moves.  So the infantry would have to stay on the transport and die if Japan attacks.  Still, its nice to have the transports all save and snug in z35 because if Japan attacks they will be very weak afterward so maybe they will choose not to attack it.

[Mallery29]

Two thoughts (not endorsing anything, just feelers):

1. UK still attacks the EI fleet but understands it will be sacking it to cause chaos.  Assumption: Egypt UK FTR survives, Russia hit Ukraine.
   However, it uses the India CA/Trans to hit Borneo with 1 Burma inf, 1 India inf.  While the battle will not be won by UK, the damage it can inflict should be enough (the Japan CV will be gone, and likely it will lose a FTR with a possibility of taking out 1 more FTR or the BB.).  If the battle goes well enought to eliminate the Japanese fleet, you can take two inf from Aus and make your way to SZ30 for a UK2 reinforcement of India.  If even the BB and/or FTR survives, you can move the transport to SZ38 (lower left of Aus)…it may get sacked, but it keeps them from moving elsewhere with the BB/FTR.  You can reinforce India with two FTRs from UK on UK2.  Pros: Take 4IPC away from Japan, taking some heat off of Asia for a turn Con: weakens India by two inf/FTR.

2. UK avoids EI fleet. Assumptions: Russia hits Ukraine, Egypt FTR is gone, Russia moves Kazah inf to Schezwan. Russians stacked Buryatia or retreated (will go into that option here)
   UK1 buy is 2FTR, 1inf/2art (31 spent).  Use 2inf/CA/Trans as above (hit Borneo).  CV/FTR goes after Japan DD/Trans in SZ61 (FTR lands in Schezwan or can land in Buryatia if stacked, but Japan could still go all out for it, so I would rather retreat Buryatia and land FTR in Schezwan).  The other CA along with 1Aus inf, NZ inf, SS, Trans goes for Solomons.  UK uses the FTRs/Bomber to get to WRus (take out German Baltic fleet), so they can make it to India UK2(Bomber could go to Caucus for range purpose).
   US1: (assumption is UK CAs are gone, same with CV, UK SS submerged) US buys CV,Trans,FTR, SS, Art (save 1)

US moves everything West.  Move SZ 19 CA to WUS, Pac Fleet and its air force heads for Solomons only if Japan is out of range from hitting it J2. Get US Schezwan FTR to India. Otherwise, just send the FTRs/Bomber to Solomons, and keep all naval in Hawaii (transport 2inf there as well). place all buys in WUS
UK2: Inf/art/tank, 2FTRs (or save the money for preps for a UK3/4 naval buy for UK to take heat off Russia). Get UK Schezwan FTR back to India, land WRus FTRs in India.
US2: US Buys Trans,art,CV,FTR,SS (save none).  the end of US2, your Solomons should look like this: 2CV, 4FTR, 1Bomber, 2DD, BB, 2SS, CA, 2Trans w/3inf/art on Solomons w/ a CV/FTR/SS/Trans back in WUS as reserve.

This should take all the heat off India.  While they could build an IC in EI, they lose their shuck flow due to taking Borneo and killing the other transport.  I would assume they would go up the middle here, but that allows India to flex its muscle, and puts US able to hit Philliipines/Borneo US3 (may not do it, but the threat has been provided).  Japan would have to consider this.  (this is why I feel the Solomons are a key here for KJF).  Would like feedback/thoughts on this…did look at this at 1130pm last night, so fatigue may be an issue on it).  Debate away!

[MistuhJay]

Thanks for this, I’ve been kicking US Pacific ideas around in my head for a while, but nothing was sticking. I particularly like your UK invasion of Solomons/stationing US air units there.

Cheers!

[AxisBrutality]

quote]

This strategy looks crazy enough to work actually. However… the Axis counter would be to consolidate all German units on Algeria on G2 and place the Japanese transports off on J2 FIC to threaten an amphibious landing  on either India or Egypt. Interesting… let us know if it worked.

Hi, I am back for a while. Did test this, it was very interesting, I tested it for 3 rounds, and Egypt did survive.

Basically I started of with adjusting the strategy a little bit. After Russian FTR landing on Egypt, as always, then I decided to attack East Indies fleet instead of putting it outside Syria. I won and had 1 UK FTR left.

What I did was to land 1 UK FTR from the sunk Carrier to Egypt. I had 2 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 1 Russian FTR from earlier on. Now I move 1 Syrian INF to Egypt, and take another 2 INF from India with the transport to Egypt.

Now I have 5 INF, 2 FTR(1 Russian, 1 UK), 1 Tank and 1 Art. Total of 9 units on Egypt.

India = I loved Burma INF to India, and Iran INF to India, so I still had 3 INF the as in the start of the game. I built 2 Tank, 1 Art on India. IC on Egypt = Total of 31.

UK Bomber to Caucasus and 2 UK FTR from London to West Africa.

Japan suffered some heavy losses due to the fact that they lost East Indies fleet. Now India was not under that much pressure, but I moved both Japanese Transports to FIC and dumped in 4 Units, 2 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank. And I put the rest of the fleet there too with 2 FTR on the Carrier. Japan has only 4 FTR in total right now.

I bought 2 Transports, 2 Destroyers. Now, the Japanese don’t know what U.S. is going to do next, so I sent everything towards Alaska and built IC there. U.S. Bomber went to Alaska too. U.S. Cruiser on Panama, to West U.S. Now I still had 27 IPC to spend. I bought another Battleship and Transport, placed it outside West U.S.
Already now, USA had sicker fleet than Japan, and on top of it, IC on Alaska for US2 turn. I moved 1 INF from Central U.S to West U.S. and 1 Tank from Eastern to West so that it can be transported to Alaska on US2 turn.

Now what can Germany do on G2? I followed your instruction, but G was no threat standing on Algeria, but Germany doesn’t have any other choice I think than to do so. Germany could have put all the forces available on Libya to try to attack 5 INF, 2 FTR, 1 Tank, 1 Art but it is very risky for the Germany to do so, the point is, German player can not know what UK will do after the German turn, and another fun for the allies is, Japanese player doesn’t know if U.S. is gonna build IC on Alaska, so a Japanese player usually will move as you said, all they can to FIC to pressure India or maybe Egypt.

So Germany went into Libya on G2 turn, so Germany had 6 land units there are 2 FTRs. Now the UK starts building, so I boght AAA-gun and 1 FTR on Egypt. I flew over 2 FTR from West Africa so now Egypt had AAA-gun AND 3 FTR in total. Two of the FTRs on Egypt, the UK FTR and Russian went to India, so kind of trade off, 2 goes to India while 2 from West Africa goes to Egypt.

I bought 1 FTR, 1 INF, 1 Art on India, so 15 + 17 = 32 IPC.
UK bomber landed on Egypt also.

Now India had 4 INF, 2 Tank, 3 FTR, 2 Art + AAA-gun.
Now, Japan has a huge dilemma on J2 turn, they can’t touch Egypt, because moving that fleet so far away which U.S. standing on Alaska is just not duable. Japan could attack India with 4 INF, 2 Art, 1 Tank, 4 FTR, 1 Bomber,1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser but he chances of Japan winning are 53,6% only.

Japan has to build forces now on Japan, mostly naval forces, so I bought 3 subs, 1 carrier. That is the maximum that Japan can buy, and then there are no land units or anything left to buy. I had to withdraw the fleet back to Japan, there is no other thing Japan can do, you will know why now.

U.S. will buy 2 Battleships on Alaska, and move 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport, 1 INF, 1 Tank from West to Alaska. Now you can imagine, USA has 4 Battleships, Japan has 1. USA have 2 Destroyers, 1 Sub, 1 Cruiser, 2 Transports with 3 INF + 1 Tank, 1 Carrier with 2 FTR on it, 1 Bomber on Alaska, and another 2 FTRs also there on land. Now that’s cool :)

So I played the 3rd round also, but as you can see Japan has some serious issues to think about from J2 and J3. Not fun when US2 and US3 starts. I waited with the US2, but I could have dumped in forces into Russia already and I could have attacked Japanese INF on Anwhei with 2 U.S INF, 1 FTR from Sinkiang(I moved them there on US1 +1 Russian INF following them on R2) + 1 Bomber from Alaska while dumping into Russia 2 U.S. INF to support Russian INF there. But I didn’t wanted to split the fleet so I was waiting with all this for US3 turn. Needless to Japan, a Japanese player should get some diarhea problems by US3 turn :)

Germany had problems in North Africa, so a German player has to choose to fight Egypt or to lose North Africa and concentrate on Russia. The fun part for Allies is that whether or not IC on Egypt should be built does depend on how many German FTRs are placed on G1, and where, I mean where those 5 FTR are. The less of them are on Italy, the better for UK to build IC on Egypt. And the opposite, the more German FTRs are on Italy, well, bigger chance for UK to build a fleet right away.

Now I will also test this weekend, what happens if I build a UK IC on Western Canada, then UK can drop a fleet already on UK2 turn, maybe good if we go for KGF. Have to test that out.

[Hobbes]

@AxisBrutality:

quote]

This strategy looks crazy enough to work actually. However… the Axis counter would be to consolidate all German units on Algeria on G2 and place the Japanese transports off on J2 FIC to threaten an amphibious landing�  on either India or Egypt. Interesting… let us know if it worked.

Hi, I am back for a while. Did test this, it was very interesting, I tested it for 3 rounds, and Egypt did survive.

Basically I started of with adjusting the strategy a little bit. After Russian FTR landing on Egypt, as always, then I decided to attack East Indies fleet instead of putting it outside Syria. I won and had 1 UK FTR left.

What I did was to land 1 UK FTR from the sunk Carrier to Egypt. I had 2 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 1 Russian FTR from earlier on. Now I move 1 Syrian INF to Egypt, and take another 2 INF from India with the transport to Egypt.

Now I have 5 INF, 2 FTR(1 Russian, 1 UK), 1 Tank and 1 Art. Total of 9 units on Egypt.

India = I loved Burma INF to India, and Iran INF to India, so I still had 3 INF the as in the start of the game. I built 2 Tank, 1 Art on India. IC on Egypt = Total of 31.

UK Bomber to Caucasus and 2 UK FTR from London to West Africa.

Japan suffered some heavy losses due to the fact that they lost East Indies fleet. Now India was not under that much pressure, but I moved both Japanese Transports to FIC and dumped in 4 Units, 2 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank. And I put the rest of the fleet there too with 2 FTR on the Carrier. Japan has only 4 FTR in total right now.

I bought 2 Transports, 2 Destroyers. Now, the Japanese don’t know what U.S. is going to do next, so I sent everything towards Alaska and built IC there. U.S. Bomber went to Alaska too. U.S. Cruiser on Panama, to West U.S. Now I still had 27 IPC to spend. I bought another Battleship and Transport, placed it outside West U.S.
Already now, USA had sicker fleet than Japan, and on top of it, IC on Alaska for US2 turn. I moved 1 INF from Central U.S to West U.S. and 1 Tank from Eastern to West so that it can be transported to Alaska on US2 turn.

Now what can Germany do on G2? I followed your instruction, but G was no threat standing on Algeria, but Germany doesn’t have any other choice I think than to do so. Germany could have put all the forces available on Libya to try to attack 5 INF, 2 FTR, 1 Tank, 1 Art but it is very risky for the Germany to do so, the point is, German player can not know what UK will do after the German turn, and another fun for the allies is, Japanese player doesn’t know if U.S. is gonna build IC on Alaska, so a Japanese player usually will move as you said, all they can to FIC to pressure India or maybe Egypt.

So Germany went into Libya on G2 turn, so Germany had 6 land units there are 2 FTRs. Now the UK starts building, so I boght AAA-gun and 1 FTR on Egypt. I flew over 2 FTR from West Africa so now Egypt had AAA-gun AND 3 FTR in total. Two of the FTRs on Egypt, the UK FTR and Russian went to India, so kind of trade off, 2 goes to India while 2 from West Africa goes to Egypt.

I bought 1 FTR, 1 INF, 1 Art on India, so 15 + 17 = 32 IPC.
UK bomber landed on Egypt also.

Now India had 4 INF, 2 Tank, 3 FTR, 2 Art + AAA-gun.
Now, Japan has a huge dilemma on J2 turn, they can’t touch Egypt, because moving that fleet so far away which U.S. standing on Alaska is just not duable. Japan could attack India with 4 INF, 2 Art, 1 Tank, 4 FTR, 1 Bomber,1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser but he chances of Japan winning are 53,6% only.

yeah, but at the same time with the Axis I’d probably make a spoiling attack on Egypt on J2 to kill some of those units there and then hit it again on G3 before the Allies could reinforce it. I don’t know the math but after Egypt falls then Germany focus on Africa and Russia and on J2 starts stacking on airpower and subs.

Japan has to build forces now on Japan, mostly naval forces, so I bought 3 subs, 1 carrier. That is the maximum that Japan can buy, and then there are no land units or anything left to buy. I had to withdraw the fleet back to Japan, there is no other thing Japan can do, you will know why now.

U.S. will buy 2 Battleships on Alaska, and move 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport, 1 INF, 1 Tank from West to Alaska. Now you can imagine, USA has 4 Battleships, Japan has 1. USA have 2 Destroyers, 1 Sub, 1 Cruiser, 2 Transports with 3 INF + 1 Tank, 1 Carrier with 2 FTR on it, 1 Bomber on Alaska, and another 2 FTRs also there on land. Now that’s cool :)

So I played the 3rd round also, but as you can see Japan has some serious issues to think about from J2 and J3. Not fun when US2 and US3 starts. I waited with the US2, but I could have dumped in forces into Russia already and I could have attacked Japanese INF on Anwhei with 2 U.S INF, 1 FTR from Sinkiang(I moved them there on US1 +1 Russian INF following them on R2) + 1 Bomber from Alaska while dumping into Russia 2 U.S. INF to support Russian INF there. But I didn’t wanted to split the fleet so I was waiting with all this for US3 turn. Needless to Japan, a Japanese player should get some diarhea problems by US3 turn :)

Germany had problems in North Africa, so a German player has to choose to fight Egypt or to lose North Africa and concentrate on Russia. The fun part for Allies is that whether or not IC on Egypt should be built does depend on how many German FTRs are placed on G1, and where, I mean where those 5 FTR are. The less of them are on Italy, the better for UK to build IC on Egypt. And the opposite, the more German FTRs are on Italy, well, bigger chance for UK to build a fleet right away.

Now I will also test this weekend, what happens if I build a UK IC on Western Canada, then UK can drop a fleet already on UK2 turn, maybe good if we go for KGF. Have to test that out.

ICs on Alaska are a waste. You can’t threaten Phillipines/Borneo/East Indies to reduce Japan’s income, otherwise both countries will be almost matched at income production after Japan takes China (-4 for US, +4 for Japan, total of +8 for Axis)

[AxisBrutality]

yeah, but at the same time with the Axis I’d probably make a spoiling attack on Egypt on J2 to kill some of those units there and then hit it again on G3 before the Allies could reinforce it. I don’t know the math but after Egypt falls then Germany focus on Africa and Russia and on J2 starts stacking on airpower and subs.

ICs on Alaska are a waste. You can’t threaten Phillipines/Borneo/East Indies to reduce Japan’s income, otherwise both countries will be almost matched at income production after Japan takes China (-4 for US, +4 for Japan, total of +8 for Axis
–---------------------------------------------------------------

You can do a “spoil” attack but only with 2 INF, 1 Art, 1 Armor. And 2 Transport. Now do you intend to protect those 2 Japanese Transport, or do you accept that they will die when UK3 turn start? If you don’t accept them dead then you need to send additional ships to protect them, and what does that mean? Less ships around Japan while the U.S. is building on Alaska.  That is perfect for the U.S.

In addition to this, you will remove 4 units from FIC, which means 4 less units to defend when India pays a visit there, and they will by UK3.

Yes, you can threaten the Phillipines on US2, but for how long can you hold it before Japan destroys that U.S. Fleet? Not for long. The point with Alaska is to build a massive U.S. fleet which will constantly threaten Tokyo directly + supplies to Russian Far East territories can be easely shipped there. It’s a matter of priority, do you want the U.S. to fight in the Phillipines or help Russia and India actually by drawing the whole Japanese fleet outside Tokyo.

Another point with the IC on Alaska is that Japanese troops can be actually attacked by U.S. Forces in China on US2. There are 2 INF, 1 FTR on Szechwan which I usually support with 1 Russian INF. Those forces can be moved to Sinkiang so that they are more out of the reach for Japanese FTRs which are usually stationed on FIC or just outside FIC. The US FTR from Hawaii would then go to Soviet Far East and land there where 4 or 5 Russian INF would be stationed. The same goes for the US Bomber making it possible to attack or harrass Japanese INFs on Anhwei on US2 with 2 INF, 2 FTR, 1 Bomber.

[Mallery29]

Didn’t we already establish BBs are a waste of time?  We had this discussion about India buying BBs, and that got blown out of the water…so why would the US do the same damn thing to get the same damn result?  BBs are the biggest waste of money P E R I O D. PERIOD.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

Didn’t we already establish BBs are a waste of time?  We had this discussion about India buying BBs, and that got blown out of the water…so why would the US do the same damn thing to get the same damn result?   BBs are the biggest waste of money P E R I O D. PERIOD.  Â

That was me NOT attacking East Indies, and of course UK got dead then. Now that East Indies is dead, UK doesn’t need BBs on India and U.S. Forces on Szechwan survive also, that’s a big difference.

U.S. has 11 more IPC to build for than UK, but it can put 2 units on Alaska, so be my guest, choose which other units you want on Alaska, but the point is, Alaska IC is the quickest way to terrorize Japan directly, same goes for Manchuria which is only 2 spaces from Alaska and Russia is only 1 space from Alaska, which means Japan will NEVER take any Russian territory EVER, not with this build up. If you don’t like 2 BB, then build 2 Subs and rest on Bombers or 3 Bombers and 1 Sub, I am flexible. Point is, Japan is toast if U.S. goes all in on Alaska. Pressure on India will not even exist.

[Mallery29]

Read my lips: “You don’t need to go after India”.  Stalemate is all you need while you can send units up the middle (hence the HB Slam reference).  Meanwhile, Russian falls, and the UK becomes the next target of the Germans.  And Japan is still at 30 IPCs a turn.  The economics have to be turned to take advantage.

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

Read my lips: “You don’t need to go after India”.  Stalemate is all you need while you can send units up the middle (hence the HB Slam reference).  Meanwhile, Russian falls, and the UK becomes the next target of the Germans.  And Japan is still at 30 IPCs a turn.  The economics have to be turned to take advantage.

But there is no stalemate for Japan when they have to use all 4 FTR and bomber towards Japan because of the U.S. build up, therefore FIC is not stalemate, they are toast, you know that UK can have 10 units on India if UK wants to already after UK1 turn and before J1 starts it’s turn. So that’s a lot. Read also my reply in the other thread, alternatives UK can do to take Japans money easely on UK1 turn. So I can’t see how Russia falls, FIC is going to fall big time.

[Mallery29]

You must have gotten a different version of the game, because last I checked, FIC isn’t important (unless your rules state its a VC).  And you fail to understand the definition of a stalemate.  No side has the advantage, no side attacks.  The aggressor usually fails and gets pushed back.  I don’t need to read other threads to read about Russia’s 5% chance of survival.  Russia falls regardless…otherwise your German player frak’d up big time.  The question is, are you in position to prevent Germany from being able to conquer UK?  If Russia can hold out 5-6 turns, then the answer favors the Allies.

Japan’s defense perimeter of India should be at Yunan, not FIC (because of the transports/fleet position). (in a stalemate strat to give Germany time).

[AxisBrutality]

@Mallery29:

You must have gotten a different version of the game, because last I checked, FIC isn’t important (unless your rules state its a VC).  And you fail to understand the definition of a stalemate.  No side has the advantage, no side attacks.  The aggressor usually fails and gets pushed back.  I don’t need to read other threads to read about Russia’s 5% chance of survival.  Russia falls regardless…otherwise your German player frak’d up big time.  The question is, are you in position to prevent Germany from being able to conquer UK?  If Russia can hold out 5-6 turns, then the answer favors the Allies.Â

Japan’s defense perimeter of India should be at Yunan, not FIC (because of the transports/fleet position). (in a stalemate strat to give Germany time).

When did IPCs got irrelevant? So it’s irrelevant if UK takes Borneo and New Guinea on UK1 ? It’s irrelevant when UK takes FIC and Malaya which are another 3 IPC. Is it also irrelevant when USA visits Manchuria for another 3 IPC?

I play total victory, not V-City stuff. Well if Yunnan is the defense perimeter, you just gave away what I mentioned above or else you will have to move your fleet further south, and you can’t do that because of the U.S build up on Alaska. And then there is an option for UK to build another IC on FIC or EI since Japanese fleet will not be able to move away from Japan, they can’t even stop USA visiting Manchuria because of the 2 sea zones around Japan.

[Hobbes]

@AxisBrutality:

yeah, but at the same time with the Axis I’d probably make a spoiling attack on Egypt on J2 to kill some of those units there and then hit it again on G3 before the Allies could reinforce it. I don’t know the math but after Egypt falls then Germany focus on Africa and Russia and on J2 starts stacking on airpower and subs.

ICs on Alaska are a waste. You can’t threaten Phillipines/Borneo/East Indies to reduce Japan’s income, otherwise both countries will be almost matched at income production after Japan takes China (-4 for US, +4 for Japan, total of +8 for Axis
–---------------------------------------------------------------

You can do a “spoil” attack but only with 2 INF, 1 Art, 1 Armor. And 2 Transport. Now do you intend to protect those 2 Japanese Transport, or do you accept that they will die when UK3 turn start? If you don’t accept them dead then you need to send additional ships to protect them, and what does that mean? Less ships around Japan while the U.S. is building on Alaska.  That is perfect for the U.S.

The Japanese transports either are sent without an escort and most likely will die. Since the IC in Egypt should fall to Germany it’s a perfect trade.

In addition to this, you will remove 4 units from FIC, which means 4 less units to defend when India pays a visit there, and they will by UK3.

I don’t see a problem with losing FIC on UK3 - quite natural if Japan is swinging to stop the US on the Pacific.

Yes, you can threaten the Phillipines on US2, but for how long can you hold it before Japan destroys that U.S. Fleet? Not for long. The point with Alaska is to build a massive U.S. fleet which will constantly threaten Tokyo directly + supplies to Russian Far East territories can be easely shipped there. It’s a matter of priority, do you want the U.S. to fight in the Phillipines or help Russia and India actually by drawing the whole Japanese fleet outside Tokyo.

Impossible. Here’s why:

On US1 you move the fleet to SZ64.
On J2 it buys 1 carrier and 3 subs, sends the transports to Egypt and masses everything on SZ60.
On US2 it is impossible to land on Asia because the Japanese will destroy the US fleet. So, US2 the US buys 2 battleships and on J3 more 5 subs for Japan for SZ60.
On J3… Japan can hit SZ63 and destroy the US fleet, depending on the J1 buys. US has 4 battleships, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 1 submarine and 2 fighters. Japan has 1 battleship, 2 carrier, 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser, 4 submarines, 4 fighters and 1 bomber. Add 2 Japanses destroyers to those numbers (from my J1 buy) and choose first the carriers as casualties and Japan has 86%.
On US3… completely impossible to land on Buryatia without being destroyed - US has 4 battleships, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 1 submarine and 2 fighters. Japan has 1 battleship, 2 carrier, 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser, 9 submarines, 4 fighters and 1 bomber… 97% odds when attacking the US fleet at SZ63 on J4.
This continues… since Japan and the US are almost matched in income and naval production (due to Japan retaining the money islands) it’s impossible to advance with the US to Asia soon, unless you want to lose your 4 US battleships. Japan stalls the US advance on the Pacific/Asia and that Alaskan IC can’t be used for anything else.

[Mallery29]

Axis, I play total VC as well…  Losing irrelevant IPCs when important IPC can be gained is ok by me…here’s why in a stalemate strat, Yunan is the place to go.  Any advance by Indian forces can be met in Yunan.  They can hit FIC, Burma, and India all from Yunan.  So if you start spreading your forces out, you risk 3-5 transports hitting India (depending on buys, moments of opportunities).  The moment the Indians try to take FIC, you put yourself into a precarious position of having to defend 3 territories while only producing 3 units a turn, while Japan can hit you in either spot, outproduce you, and start reducing your defensive capabilities without a full assault.  This is like when Russia tries to landgrab too much.  If they only landgrab what they need, vice what they can, they are more stable in the long run.  Spreading out your Indian forces can result in the same catastrophe. 
I’m glad Hobbes did the math…I’m tired of arguing failed allied Naval strategies.
I agree with Hobbes that sacrificing a Japanese transport or two can be wonderful thing for the Axis to take Egypt, although, I’d probably just send a DD because with them and reroute the rest of the fleet back north.  Missing one DD in this Alaska Crush won’t completely shift the numbers in the Allies favor, and gives the UK a potential for losing valued units.

[Hobbes]

@Mallery29:

Axis, I play total VC as well…  Losing irrelevant IPCs when important IPC can be gained is ok by me…here’s why in a stalemate strat, Yunan is the place to go.  Any advance by Indian forces can be met in Yunan.  They can hit FIC, Burma, and India all from Yunan.  So if you start spreading your forces out, you risk 3-5 transports hitting India (depending on buys, moments of opportunities).  The moment the Indians try to take FIC, you put yourself into a precarious position of having to defend 3 territories while only producing 3 units a turn, while Japan can hit you in either spot, outproduce you, and start reducing your defensive capabilities without a full assault.  This is like when Russia tries to landgrab too much.  If they only landgrab what they need, vice what they can, they are more stable in the long run.  Spreading out your Indian forces can result in the same catastrophe.

I noticed this also - it can be very tricky for Indian forces to advance on Asia and still defend India with that amount of Japanese transports active.

I’m glad Hobbes did the math…I’m tired of arguing failed allied Naval strategies.

A player who never faced it can easily make mistakes and have serious problems… and sometimes you really need to see it fail to believe that it will not work.

I agree with Hobbes that sacrificing a Japanese transport or two can be wonderful thing for the Axis to take Egypt, although, I’d probably just send a DD because with them and reroute the rest of the fleet back north.  Missing one DD in this Alaska Crush won’t completely shift the numbers in the Allies favor, and gives the UK a potential for losing valued units.

Yeah, although I’d rather lose the transports than to kill an UK fighter and lose the Japanese fleet on a failed attack because that destroyer wasn’t present. Some battles I just don’t like to take ANY chance ;)

[AxisBrutality]

Impossible. Here’s why:

On US1 you move the fleet to SZ64.
On J2 it buys 1 carrier and 3 subs, sends the transports to Egypt and masses everything on SZ60.
On US2 it is impossible to land on Asia because the Japanese will destroy the US fleet. So, US2 the US buys 2 battleships and on J3 more 5 subs for Japan for SZ60.

–----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply. Ok, so lets say no IC on Alaska. I move all of the U.S. Forces to Iwo Jiwa which is SZ59. What do you do then, I would like to know, still buy 3 sub and 1 carrier on J2 ?

I would buy on US1 - 3 bombers and 1 sub = 42 IPC. Put them all on Western U.S. Cruiser from Panama to Western U.S. also. 1 FTR is on Alaska which came from Eastern U.S. 1 more FTR from Szechwan to Soviet Far East. Now I can on US2 attack all you got on SZ60, whatever that is, you will have to move EVERYTHING you got to SZ60 or else I can attack Japan.

I would have 1 Carrier, 1 Transport with 2 INF, 1 Battleship, 1 Sub, 2 Destroyers, 5 FTR and 4 Bombers to attack you with on US2. Be my guest and do tell what you build and move on J2. �
The principle of my strategy can clearly be done anyway with no Alaska IC, the point is to scare Japans forces to defend Japan, so that India is safe and I can start having fun in FIC/Malaya and East Indies with the UK, where 7 IPC are.

And don’t worry, I will make sure that Mother Russia has 5 INF on Soviet Far East to protect 3 U.S. FTR there (1 from Szechwan, 1 from Carrier on Hawaii and 1 from Hawaii itself) FTR from Westen U.S. lands on a Carrier which is now positioned on Iwo Jima. U.S. Bomber from Eastern U.S. goes also to Soviet Far East. That’s a really nice base right there, 5 Russian INF with 3 U.S. FTR and 1 Bomber :) I would also land Russian FTR after the attack on Ukraine, land it on Kazakhstan, in order to be able to attack any Japanese troops on R2 with 5 INF + 1 FTR.

Also the positionng of my U.S. FTRs is optional, I can also land 2 of them on the Carrier on Iwo Jiwa, 3rd FTR on Yakut from Szechwan and 2 more on Alaska, so am I able to attack you on SZ62 as well.

Now, before I do all this, I could buy 2 Bombers, 1 Tank on India with the UK, on UK1. Save 1 IPC in cash. Another Bomber from London goes to Evenki. Now UK has 3 Bombers which can strike your fleet on UK2 before USA starts having fun on US2. Do also tell what you buy on J1, and where do you put it?

[Hobbes]

@AxisBrutality:

Impossible. Here’s why:

On US1 you move the fleet to SZ64.
On J2 it buys 1 carrier and 3 subs, sends the transports to Egypt and masses everything on SZ60.
On US2 it is impossible to land on Asia because the Japanese will destroy the US fleet. So, US2 the US buys 2 battleships and on J3 more 5 subs for Japan for SZ60.

–----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply. Ok, so lets say no IC on Alaska. I move all of the U.S. Forces to Iwo Jiwa which is SZ59. What do you do then, I would like to know, still buy 3 sub and 1 carrier on J2 ?

I would buy on US1 - 3 bombers and 1 sub = 42 IPC. Put them all on Western U.S. Cruiser from Panama to Western U.S. also. 1 FTR is on Alaska which came from Eastern U.S. 1 more FTR from Szechwan to Soviet Far East. Now I can on US2 attack all you got on SZ60, whatever that is, you will have to move EVERYTHING you got to SZ60 or else I can attack Japan.

OK, the US can only land on Japan with 2 infantry and 2 fighters (+ possibly 1 bomber and the bombardment shots) so that isn’t really a threat if Japan builds say, 4 inf and 2 fighters on J2. Plus an attempt to land on Japan would most likely result on the US fleet being attacked and destroyed on the next Japanese turn.

I would have 1 Carrier, 1 Transport with 2 INF, 1 Battleship, 1 Sub, 2 Destroyers, 5 FTR and 4 Bombers to attack you with on US2. Be my guest and do tell what you build and move on J2. �
The principle of my strategy can clearly be done anyway with no Alaska IC, the point is to scare Japans forces to defend Japan, so that India is safe and I can start having fun in FIC/Malaya and East Indies with the UK, where 7 IPC are.

On J2 Japan can simply build infantry and fighters on Japan and send the fleet to land on FIC/Burma, stalling the UK advance and preventing any transports from being built on India.
Unless the initial transports survive (and they should be primary targets for Japan on J1) you need to buy ships to defend transports built on India, otherwise 1 bomber in Japan (or 1 carrier on SZ60) can sink them.

And don’t worry, I will make sure that Mother Russia has 5 INF on Soviet Far East to protect 3 U.S. FTR there (1 from Szechwan, 1 from Carrier on Hawaii and 1 from Hawaii itself) FTR from Westen U.S. lands on a Carrier which is now positioned on Iwo Jima. U.S. Bomber from Eastern U.S. goes also to Soviet Far East. That’s a really nice base right there, 5 Russian INF with 3 U.S. FTR and 1 Bomber :) I would also land Russian FTR after the attack on Ukraine, land it on Kazakhstan, in order to be able to attack any Japanese troops on R2 with 5 INF + 1 FTR.

Also the positionng of my U.S. FTRs is optional, I can also land 2 of them on the Carrier on Iwo Jiwa, 3rd FTR on Yakut from Szechwan and 2 more on Alaska, so am I able to attack you on SZ62 as well.

Now, before I do all this, I could buy 2 Bombers, 1 Tank on India with the UK, on UK1. Save 1 IPC in cash. Another Bomber from London goes to Evenki. Now UK has 3 Bombers which can strike your fleet on UK2 before USA starts having fun on US2. Do also tell what you buy on J1, and where do you put it?

You’re risking a bit on India…
J1: buy 2 bombers and 1 sub. Sink all remaining UK ships and land everything on Burma.
J2: attack India with 7 inf, 2 art, 1 arm, 4 ftrs, 3 bombers, 1 cruiser, 1 battleship. UK defends with 1 AAGun, 5 inf, 2 arm, 4 ftrs and 3 bombers… 60% for Japan.

The overall odds would depend on the number of Allied fighters (and Russian armor) but even without Japan attacking India it has forced the Allies to defend it (at the expense of other areas, like Europe) and avoided being forced to defend SZ60 or to lose ships to the UK/US.
On J2 the fleet could then swing back to SZ60 to add more ships or to SZ61 to land more ground units on Asia. Or even send the transports to crack Egypt/Africa open for the Germans/Axis to take…
Japan’s fleet can be like an octopus at the beginning… you can try to squeeze it with the Allies but it can slip and slip and will only be caught if it wants to, makes a mistake or if there’s nothing else to hide.