Very helpful, thank you guys!
I think I’m going to order the John Keegan and Erwin Rommel books.
Thanks again!
Communsim is not good
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In order for communism to work, the average person needs to realize more than his immediate conditions.
Bossk, thank you for pointing out what me and Horten have been saying:
You have to alter basic human nature for an effective communist system. Which is why Stalinism occured. Capitalism does not require any alteration of basic human nature. That is why capitalism is alive and well. Communism, on the other hand, has never been truly established.Short of a secret cabal dosing everyone with mnind altering drugs, people will not change. And in that situation, the Cabal and Company would become the only upper class, with no middle class. It would be Capitalism with lower average incomes.
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Moses, the gross wealth of each nation is not a good way to compare them, the only thing it tells you is how much money the government has, and thus how much weaponry it gives to rouge nations and third world states. Per capita is a better barometer, places like U.S. and Japan roxor.
Fisaternis, U.K. is socialist compared to the fourth most open economy in the world (U.S.)
Most Open economies:
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Hong Kong
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Singapore
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New Zealand
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U.S.
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people will not change
People change, they evolve. Not only our body evolve, but our society, our philosophy. You statement is just good for conformism, and am i not sure we can afford to live in a so competitive world, maybe our little technological toys will make us pay for our egoism.
Do you think the first sapies were able to integrate a society like our ? Nein ! Communism is not working for now, we are not ready for that, it is still a noble objective. Idealist are never very realistic in someway, but they trace the future…
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Did people have to surrender selfishness to live in a society? No.
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If I can see more than what is sitting right here in front of me, I think most people can; it’s not like I’m above average. It’s simply a matter of letting people become aware that this isn’t the only way.
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A Tradegy could cause people to see more than whats in front of them. Look at 9/11, but imagine that 100x harder.
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A Tradegy could cause people to see more than whats in front of them. Look at 9/11, but imagine that 100x harder.
often called a “seminal event” . . . a very powerful time or event in a person’s life. This can be very effective in effecting changes in a person’s life - like quitting smoking, speaking to a long-lost relative, etc. Very handy in giving one fresh perspective. Of course, some might consider their lives to be full of these momments, whereas others might only notice one or two.
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Did people have to surrender selfishness to live in a society? No.I think they did… From what we know they live in small group because they had not the choice, but they were not giving up power to help each other; that was an important part in evolution. The weak die, for the greater good. Extreme capitalism does not eliminate the weak (if the term can by apply to our society; i don’t even think so), it encourage parasitism, i think we can call that a deviance. It encourage behavior that are dangerous for our survival and social evolution. Sure i am not communist, we are not readuy for that, but i am for a move from Right to Left.
Also we are not all (completly) selfish. What horten call the “leftish european intellectual” have no personnal interest in these left-wing group; they will just loose money (power). They just think it is the good thing for social evolution.
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@TG:
Now I don’t want to say “communism is bad” and not have any real reason for it (and god knows moses, you and I have told each other the same thing a million times! ) .
And god knows how many times I had to answer your question, “Greed ruins everything” and “Corruption ruins everything.” :wink: I think that is about the 10th topic that deals with communism – not bad, eh?
Hey, you never give me a straight answer how will you can stop a baby acquiring greed.
." People, believe it or not, do not work for money; they work for what the money can buy. If people really only want money then I suppose they would behave as Wingy indicates"
No, people want stuff. Think of it like this. People go to a GAS PUMP, AND STEAL GAS…NOT MONEY (THIS ANALOGY DOESN;T WORK WELL WITH BANK ROBBERIES.) People want to acquire more and more, because it is this greed is acquired after birth, and I doubt a society can be made to prevent this from happening. Stop bringing up the Native Americans!
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“Also we are not all (completly) selfish.”
And how many hours do you work a week :)
“What horten call the “leftish european intellectual” have no personnal interest in these left-wing group; they will just loose money (power). They just think it is the good thing for social evolution.”:
“Leftist Europeans” are the Europeans that are sterotypical to the same opinions concerning foreign relations, economics, and all of that.
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Moses, the gross wealth of each nation is not a good way to compare them, the only thing it tells you is how much money the government has, and thus how much weaponry it gives to rouge nations and third world states. Per capita is a better barometer, places like U.S. and Japan roxor.
Here I would have to disagree. First gross economy has a lot to do with “World Power” status, which is what I was talking about. Lets look a China for instance. Shouldn’t Luxemburg be at a higher level as a “World Power” then China (and USA for that matter) in terms of per capita income alone? I would certainly think not. And it usually gets harder to have a high per capita income with a large population than it is with a small one. Also, GNP tells us a lot more than “how much weaponry it gives to rouge nations and third world states.” If this is true, how come we don’t see the “Made in Japan” marker on many weapons if it has the world’s third largest economy? Oh why is it that at #3 Japan, barely even has a standing army in the first place? (if at all, I’ve gotten a little fuzzy about the Japanese Constitution following Dubya Dubya Two) GNP teaches a lot more than this. Also per capita income is not always the best way to gauge a country either - you have to look at all the stats to (which I hopefully provided) in order to get the clear picture. GNP is just a larger (though not full) indication of this.
If I can see more than what is sitting right here in front of me, I think most people can; it’s not like I’m above average. It’s simply a matter of letting people become aware that this isn’t the only way.
I can whole heartily agree. :) Why is it that people make investments for later than selfishly spend all their money now? When the majority people realize what communism has to offer, then they will indeed work together to obtain what is better.
@cystic:
A Tradegy could cause people to see more than whats in front of them. Look at 9/11, but imagine that 100x harder.
often called a “seminal event” . . . a very powerful time or event in a person’s life. This can be very effective in effecting changes in a person’s life - like quitting smoking, speaking to a long-lost relative, etc. Very handy in giving one fresh perspective. Of course, some might consider their lives to be full of these momments, whereas others might only notice one or two.
Maybe the world wide economy falling in a great depression would put things into perspective. :o
Hey, you never give me a straight answer how will you can stop a baby acquiring greed.
Sure I did, many children learn to cooperate and learn to share in a preschool environment (in the former USSR, each child was given a specific number of square blocks and they had to all “pool” their blocks and work together in other to erect a building). Also, I’m unsure of what you mean by “baby acquiring greed.” I’m sure I answered that question before (in a different topic), though that might not have been the answer you were looking for. Please clarify.
BTW: Glad to see you’re back. It took me quite awhile in order to match all your postings for the day. But in all fairness I did break 1800 :D Oh, yeah! -
"Also, I’m unsure of what you mean by “baby acquiring greed.”:
Very simple. Babies cry and moan all the damn time, and they learn to do it more and more. Greed gets their diaper changed, and their milk microwaved. So pre-school could try top reverse it, but they were afffected right after birth.
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“Very simple. Babies cry and moan all the damn time, and they learn to do it more and more. Greed gets their diaper changed, and their milk microwaved. So pre-school could try top reverse it, but they were afffected right after birth.”
I’m not sure you can associate this very heavily with greed, since this is a matter of survival (even in a communist society, we must all survive). Also, babies cry all the time, even if their diaper is already changed and/or their tummies full. I’m sure after a baby is immediately born, the reason he/she is crying is not for those mentioned above (maybe for his/her mother, though it’s often that the baby still cries even after being reunited). Also, I was thinking that a communist society would “provide for him/her” in the first place. However, what you could do is make the argument of children “throwing tantrums” to get things their way (which in this case we are all guilty for). Again, pre-school would try to reverse it (as in isolation from his/her peers if he wants to build his/her own city with ALL the blocks).
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capitalism… encourage parasitism
Don’t make me laugh. What about social programs, very uncapitalist, very socialist/communist. Those who don’t want to work (along with a few single-parent mothers) are paid for by tax payer money.
And before you bring it up, a capitalist supporting his dependents is not parasitism.
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Sure it encourage parasitism, those who live by putting money on action are not productive, and those entrepreneur who have 10 time the paid of their employes, they are 10 time more productive that them, they have work harder ? Sure they take risk, but with what money ? And the risk, those you are’nt at the good place at the good time should be poor, they deserve that ? An hokey player that win 1 million a year is worth in term of production 20 workers ? He is working 20 time harder ? That is parasitism, they take far more than they give to the society.
Sure those who are not working are paid a little (the strong word is Little) in a left-wing society, but what; we sould let them die because again, they were not at the right place at the right time ? Also you should know that unemployment is a normal thing in any capitalist society, more than a normal thing; this is how it work, you need people that are not working.
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I can actually say that was starting to make some sense.
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First Fisternis, I am not for leaving drug addicts in the gutter. Nor am I for leaving mothers and children in single-parent homes to live in extreme poverty because the father is an ass-hole. As I have said, some socialist programs are good, but they are still 1) not capitalist and 2) still a parasitic relationship in nature.
Second, a wealthy capitalist creating jobs, but getting part of the wealth produced by the workers, that is a symbiotic relationship, maybe, but how could you call it parasitic? Worker creates wealth, part of which goes to Capitalist, while worker is given the chance to create wealth.
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Second, a wealthy capitalist creating jobs, but getting part of the wealth produced by the workers, that is a symbiotic relationship, maybe, but how could you call it parasitic? Worker creates wealth, part of which goes to Capitalist, while worker is given the chance to create wealth.
I just don’t agree; but there is no absolute truth in politic. I call it parasitic when, like i said, someone is taking far more to the society that he/she really can produce. That is not only against justice, but also against those law of nature some capitalist are using to say their system is “natural”. If an animal survive, he is probably fit to survive. If an human gain power; he is certainly fit to survive ? No, he probably exploit others, and we encourage that. You will not make me believe a bank owner is 20 time more productive than a normal worker….
Also unemployment is part of capitalism, in a capitalist economy you must have unemployment.
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I gotta’ agree with YB on this one too . . . funny, us agreeing like this.
You take your bank manager or hockey player, or whoever is paid 20x more than their employees.
Are they working 20x harder? Prolly not. Maybe 1.5 - 2.0 times harder, it would have to depend on your definitions.
In terms of economics, these people are usually being paid approximately what they are worth to the organizations they serve.
The hockey player will bring in more than 20x the amount of money than the peanut seller (unless she’s REALLY hot). The hockey player is the big draw. The bank manager has a potential to make 20x more for a bank than the individual teller. The CEO makes decisions that could make (or lose) 20x (or more) money than the average factory worker. True they are not paid according to how much work they do, but also according to their talents, their responsibilities, and their ability to bring money into an organization. If anyone walks into a capitalistic organization and can demonstrate that they too can bring in 20x as much money as the next guy, then it won’t be long until they command a salary commisurate with their responsibilities and abilities.
True there are flaws in the system, but i think for the communists sake we will not go into those . . . .- not-signed-in-crypt
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The Problem isnt that one is payed 20x harder for working very little. Its the fact that the children of that person will almost be defaulted that job. The “risk” the entrepeneur (sp) took is no longer valid. Unless those workers can pay for an education for their children (and probably can’t if we’re talking about a factory here) their children cannot achieve the level of the child who’s father owned the factory.
In a Socialist/Communist Society, you would probably have a set of free state sponsored colleges, and you would go to one based on your intelligence level and how well they did in elementary school. This way, its not your economic situation that determines your education but your intelligence and hard work.
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