Communsim is not good

[HortenFlyingWing]

"Also, I’m unsure of what you mean by “baby acquiring greed.”:

Very simple. Babies cry and moan all the damn time, and they learn to do it more and more. Greed gets their diaper changed, and their milk microwaved. So pre-school could try top reverse it, but they were afffected right after birth.

[TG Moses VI]

“Very simple. Babies cry and moan all the damn time, and they learn to do it more and more. Greed gets their diaper changed, and their milk microwaved. So pre-school could try top reverse it, but they were afffected right after birth.”

I’m not sure you can associate this very heavily with greed, since this is a matter of survival (even in a communist society, we must all survive). Also, babies cry all the time, even if their diaper is already changed and/or their tummies full. I’m sure after a baby is immediately born, the reason he/she is crying is not for those mentioned above (maybe for his/her mother, though it’s often that the baby still cries even after being reunited). Also, I was thinking that a communist society would “provide for him/her” in the first place. However, what you could do is make the argument of children “throwing tantrums” to get things their way (which in this case we are all guilty for). Again, pre-school would try to reverse it (as in isolation from his/her peers if he wants to build his/her own city with ALL the blocks).

[yourbuttocks]

@FinsterniS:

capitalism… encourage parasitism

Don’t make me laugh. What about social programs, very uncapitalist, very socialist/communist. Those who don’t want to work (along with a few single-parent mothers) are paid for by tax payer money.

And before you bring it up, a capitalist supporting his dependents is not parasitism.

[FinsterniS]

Sure it encourage parasitism, those who live by putting money on action are not productive, and those entrepreneur who have 10 time the paid of their employes, they are 10 time more productive that them, they have work harder ? Sure they take risk, but with what money ? And the risk, those you are’nt at the good place at the good time should be poor, they deserve that ? An hokey player that win 1 million a year is worth in term of production 20 workers ? He is working 20 time harder ? That is parasitism, they take far more than they give to the society.

Sure those who are not working are paid a little (the strong word is Little) in a left-wing society, but what; we sould let them die because again, they were not at the right place at the right time ? Also you should know that unemployment is a normal thing in any capitalist society, more than a normal thing; this is how it work, you need people that are not working.

[TG Moses VI]

I can actually say that was starting to make some sense.

[yourbuttocks]

First Fisternis, I am not for leaving drug addicts in the gutter. Nor am I for leaving mothers and children in single-parent homes to live in extreme poverty because the father is an ass-hole. As I have said, some socialist programs are good, but they are still 1) not capitalist and 2) still a parasitic relationship in nature.

Second, a wealthy capitalist creating jobs, but getting part of the wealth produced by the workers, that is a symbiotic relationship, maybe, but how could you call it parasitic? Worker creates wealth, part of which goes to Capitalist, while worker is given the chance to create wealth.

[FinsterniS]

Second, a wealthy capitalist creating jobs, but getting part of the wealth produced by the workers, that is a symbiotic relationship, maybe, but how could you call it parasitic? Worker creates wealth, part of which goes to Capitalist, while worker is given the chance to create wealth.

I just don’t agree; but there is no absolute truth in politic. I call it parasitic when, like i said, someone is taking far more to the society that he/she really can produce. That is not only against justice, but also against those law of nature some capitalist are using to say their system is “natural”. If an animal survive, he is probably fit to survive. If an human gain power; he is certainly fit to survive ? No, he probably exploit others, and we encourage that. You will not make me believe a bank owner is 20 time more productive than a normal worker….

Also unemployment is part of capitalism, in a capitalist economy you must have unemployment.

[Guest]

I gotta’ agree with YB on this one too . . . funny, us agreeing like this.
You take your bank manager or hockey player, or whoever is paid 20x more than their employees.
Are they working 20x harder? Prolly not. Maybe 1.5 - 2.0 times harder, it would have to depend on your definitions.
In terms of economics, these people are usually being paid approximately what they are worth to the organizations they serve.
The hockey player will bring in more than 20x the amount of money than the peanut seller (unless she’s REALLY hot). The hockey player is the big draw. The bank manager has a potential to make 20x more for a bank than the individual teller. The CEO makes decisions that could make (or lose) 20x (or more) money than the average factory worker. True they are not paid according to how much work they do, but also according to their talents, their responsibilities, and their ability to bring money into an organization. If anyone walks into a capitalistic organization and can demonstrate that they too can bring in 20x as much money as the next guy, then it won’t be long until they command a salary commisurate with their responsibilities and abilities.
True there are flaws in the system, but i think for the communists sake we will not go into those . . . .

• not-signed-in-crypt

[Yanny]

The Problem isnt that one is payed 20x harder for working very little. Its the fact that the children of that person will almost be defaulted that job. The “risk” the entrepeneur (sp) took is no longer valid. Unless those workers can pay for an education for their children (and probably can’t if we’re talking about a factory here) their children cannot achieve the level of the child who’s father owned the factory.

In a Socialist/Communist Society, you would probably have a set of free state sponsored colleges, and you would go to one based on your intelligence level and how well they did in elementary school. This way, its not your economic situation that determines your education but your intelligence and hard work.

[HortenFlyingWing]

@TG:

“Very simple. Babies cry and moan all the damn time, and they learn to do it more and more. Greed gets their diaper changed, and their milk microwaved. So pre-school could try top reverse it, but they were afffected right after birth.”

I’m not sure you can associate this very heavily with greed, since this is a matter of survival (even in a communist society, we must all survive). Also, babies cry all the time, even if their diaper is already changed and/or their tummies full. I’m sure after a baby is immediately born, the reason he/she is crying is not for those mentioned above (maybe for his/her mother, though it’s often that the baby still cries even after being reunited). Also, I was thinking that a communist society would “provide for him/her” in the first place. However, what you could do is make the argument of children “throwing tantrums” to get things their way (which in this case we are all guilty for). Again, pre-school would try to reverse it (as in isolation from his/her peers if he wants to build his/her own city with ALL the blocks).

Simple. The need to acquire is instinct, but through that greed is acquired. You can’t stop that. As long as a man can strive, have hunger, or want something, greed will exist. No one truly wants greater good, remember. It is all how it feels to yourself.

[HortenFlyingWing]

"If an human gain power; he is certainly fit to survive ? No, he probably exploit others, and we encourage that. "

Not everything is explotion. There is intelligence and good ideas.

Milton Hershey for example. He built his workers a socialist paradise, which is now Hershey Pennsylvania. He is famous for never cheating on his wife and living a scandalous lifestyle. In fact, he increased employment during the great depression, and how did the workers repay him? Half of them went on strike, while half were loyal to a man that gave them a chance. A man that went truly to rags to riches. With communism, there would be no Hershey bar!

[HortenFlyingWing]

"In a Socialist/Communist Society, you would probably have a set of free state sponsored colleges, and you would go to one based on your intelligence level and how well they did in elementary school. "

Yes, Germany has that. But you don’t need socialism for that, besides the state sponsored colleges…and public schools suck and we all know it. So why would we want all state schools? Bad idea.

[cystic crypt]

Well, in Canada the gov’t sponsors the universities to the tune of nearly 75% depending on what faculty you’re in etc. Then there are scholarships and bursary programs designed for the intelligent/hard-working poor. The whole inheritance thing - which i’m guessing is considered to be the main problem with capitalism - is not really that much of a problem:

1. idiots who inherit a lot of money lose it, and are back to square one, along with their poor “stupid” families
2. much of the time the brains that made the money are inherited along with the money - if the person shows as much intelligence etc. as his old man or lady, then they have an opportunity to expand what they’ve inherited, increasing the economy, employing even more people, etc.
3. political power is easily inherited/acquired down generations. I have little doubt that this is more possible/likely in a communist system - “Ike’s dad was quite the communist - so Ike, you ready to fill in his shoes?” etc.

(CRYPT’S GRAND UNIFICATION THEOREM)
capitalism is like evolution - the talent makes it, the crap gets weeded out.
communism is like intelligent design - an almighty over-seer (gov’t) creates the economy - jobs, etc. and makes certain that certain ideals etc. are created into the system.
(it needs work, but you can kind of get the gist).
note that many capitalists appear to be intelligent design people, and the communists seem to be blind-watchmaker types
Capitalism is like evolution

[TG Moses VI]

“Simple. The need to acquire is instinct, but through that greed is acquired. You can’t stop that. As long as a man can strive, have hunger, or want something, greed will exist.”

Really, I’m not sure how this is conflicted with communism. I guess I’m just missing something here. Need to acquire is there (to each according to his needs). The use of “greed” is very subjective, it can be interpreted in different ways in different culture. Also want, though common associated with greed, does not necessarily mean greed (greed being excessive). Also, who’s telling you greed will NOT exist in a communist society? Sure, conditions will not be favorable (compared with a capitalist society) for it, but it is impossible to say not one man in a communist society will acquire greed. Communist just places greed at a minimum, while capitalism exploits it.

“Yes, Germany has that. But you don’t need socialism for that, besides the state sponsored colleges…and public schools suck and we all know it. So why would we want all state schools? Bad idea.”

Why is it under a capitalist system that public schools tend to “suck.” Yet in other quasi-socialist countries like China, public schools perform exceptional? Herein lies the answer. Also, for those who know anything about Germany, are their state sponsored colleges any good?

“With communism, there would be no Hershey bar!”

Oh god, we could never let this happen!! Damn those communist pinkos!! :wink:

[HortenFlyingWing]

“Why is it under a capitalist system that public schools tend to “suck.” Yet in other quasi-socialist countries like China, public schools perform exceptional?”

Sweat-shop labor is socialism? God bless capitalism. China is totalitarianism.

You communist society would fail to fix the problems of capitalism because the problems of capitalism are all greed. You cannot make a society void of it! We can’t stop bad parenting today, so how do you want to change the minds of those in the future? You would need to control every aspect of a man’s life to make a perfect communist (read
Zamyatin’s We for example), but then again their society is undermined by R-503’s (is that that guy’s name?) Greed.

So you try to say “Greed has nothing to do with communism, why bring it up???” It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Capitalism isn’t working perfectly because of greed. Now with communism, the same greed exists, but it wouldn’t allow the economic mobility to be earned, theirfore what is the point of trying? Common good? Give me a break! Noi one cares about their fellow men. Someone wants capitalism because overall it would make the best effect on everyone thus their life. One wants communsim because they want their life to be affected in a positive way. When it comes down to it, the desire for a communistic change isn’t selflessnes, but rather selfish.

[TG Moses VI]

“Sweat-shop labor is socialism”

Uh, weren’t sweatshops are an invention of the capitalist machine?

“control every aspect of a man’s life to make a perfect communist”

I do not expect everybody to be a “perfect communist.” To control every aspect of a man’s life wouldn’t even resemble communism, which encourages personal rights and freedom.

“Greed has nothing to do with communism, why bring it up???”

Wait a second, where did I say this? I’m serious, where did you manage to dig this up? I merely mentioned that communism (nor any other system) will totally eradicate greed.

“the same greed exists”

Greed at an accelerated pace!? I simply can’t agree with that.

“economic mobility to be earned”

Again, in communism people are already born with the ability of what paths to choose in life. Your “economic mobility” is already in a communism society, where in capitalism it must be achieved through exploitation and greed (at luck certainly plays a part).

“Common good? Give me a break! Noi one cares about their fellow men.”

To harsh of a generalization. Does religion (Christian) teach good will toward fellow men? Certainly I would.

“Someone wants capitalism because overall it would make the best effect on everyone thus their life.”

How would ruthlessly exploiting the worker have the “best effect on everyone.”

“When it comes down to it, the desire for a communistic change isn’t selflessnes, but rather selfish.”

Because I want to help improve the lives of those around me, it is selfish? Maybe.

[yourbuttocks]

@Yanny:

a set of free state sponsored colleges

Yes, but state schools are not as good as private schools, but in a Communism there would be no private schools.

Plus, the people who got into the better schools would be those who knew burecrats. You’d just create a new, worse class-system.

[yourbuttocks]

@HortenFlyingWing:

! Noi one cares about their fellow men.

Plenty of people care about their fellow man. Just not the majority, as would be required by Communism.

[FinsterniS]

good ideas… good ideas to exploit people you mean. The most genius mind are rarely rich. When you see some rich people you will say; hey, he got a good ideas ? you forget he was probably just at the right place at the right time. The rich people always say it was good ideas that make them rich, that is the speach of the victor.

Just take W. Bush, he is not very brilliant, still he get a good education and lot of money. That is not the exeption; he is the “normal” case.

And crypt, when i was speaking of the hocky player; what i said was; he did’nt work as much as 20 times more than a normal worker, he was just lucky, at the right place at the right time.

(CRYPT’S GRAND UNIFICATION THEOREM)
capitalism is like evolution - the talent makes it, the crap gets weeded out.
communism is like intelligent design - an almighty over-seer (gov’t) creates the economy - jobs, etc. and makes certain that certain ideals etc. are created into the system.
(it needs work, but you can kind of get the gist).
note that many capitalists appear to be intelligent design people, and the communists seem to be blind-watchmaker types
Capitalism is like evolution

Then i’m a capitalist. Wait a minute, that does’nt work out :D

Maybe communism is a step in social evolution that we are not ready to make, but it is still maybe a step.

[Yanny]

Public Colleges are horrible in the US because the Goverment doesn’t put enough money into them. We should be less concerned with firing million dollar missles at Camels in Afganastan, we should educate our own people.