• @Sweet:

    They can strike anywhere and everywhere on the front, never in harms way, and when Moscow burns, they help defend it till the bitter end. :cry:

    You see, playing Norwegian gambit I do not have that much experience with Moscow burning to the bitter end; no offence intended. I really hate to see Moscow burning and do not want to expand my experience in this way if not necessary. I have found out that the best way to avoid that is make Berlin burn a little bit sooner. This is what the UK bb helps me to do much better then the R fig because without the bb UK movements are restricted and Allied D-day is slower at least for one round but rather two (talking about KGF; but in KJF the UK fleet’s capability operate independently is of just the same importance) and also hitting much more fomidable Germany.

    If I should elaborate more on the style of play without the russian air I have adopted a style of defensive play which really can avoid the second fig without much trouble most of the time. In my last game with a player who is imho one of the best around I have won although I did not have any russian fig at all for last 3-4 rounds and Russia still was not coming into serious trouble buying 7 units a round. The reason is simple I do not trade R inf for J inf cause it is not favourable anyway. I rather focus on moving the tnk stack around in such a way that i can take and hold the territory for a round without russia coming into trouble.

    I would buy some arts for trades and occationally use a tnk especially if I bought another one that round and the situation is favourable (like trading cauc or ukr, killing two enemy tnks in the trade etc).

    If you have the allied stack on EE you do not have to bother with trading with the germans. You just keep the teritories west of Mosc. And if you need the air cover at last in mosc it is always easy to drop an allied fig. The Russian tnk stack is more important defensive unit for me then figs.

    If I thought R figs are so important I would buy one or even two, because in a typical NG game Russia has 10 tnks R3, so you can always decide to have just 8 tnk and buy the second fig instead. That is in fact a possible set up after R3 in the standard UKR/WR R R1: 2 fig and 8 tnk and  some inf (if you have bought 3 tnk R1 and 4tnk R2 what not many people do in fact, but I do when playing NG). So there is really no such a big deal in losing the R fig round one. I do not buy it back just because I simply believe 2 tnks are stronger than a fig for russia. Figs are fancy but tanks win the war. I tell you: Tanks are strong. :mrgreen:


  • I think the fig/2 tnk comparison is unnecessary to properly evaluate the Gambit. Given reasonable dice, Russia loses a fighter in Kar on G1, but also preserves 2 extra tanks in WR compared to the WR+Ukraine attack. So Russia can just buy 2 tanks after attacking Ukr or 1 fighter after attacking Norway and end up with roughly the same forces.

    IMO, the real problems with the Gambit are 1) increased probability of losing WR on G1; and 2) Ger being able to stack Ukraine and gain an important positional advantage (as pointed out by Hobbes). I think those elements have to be weighed against the extra UK BB, instead of the oversimplification of Russian fig vs UK BB.


  • @Granada:

    In my last game with a player who is imho one of the best around

    who?


  • @El:

    I think the fig/2 tnk comparison is unnecessary to properly evaluate the Gambit. Given reasonable dice, Russia loses a fighter in Kar on G1, but also preserves 2 extra tanks in WR compared to the WR+Ukraine attack. So Russia can just buy 2 tanks after attacking Ukr or 1 fighter after attacking Norway and end up with roughly the same forces.

    IMO, the real problems with the Gambit are 1) increased probability of losing WR on G1; and 2) Ger being able to stack Ukraine and gain an important positional advantage (as pointed out by Hobbes). I think those elements have to be weighed against the extra UK BB, instead of the oversimplification of Russian fig vs UK BB.

    Absolutely, it is a simplification of the effects of the gambit but that can serve as a reminder of the choice the Allies are making by performing it. The Gambit favors more the UK than Russia because the BB will be saved. There might be other additional immediate consequences such as losing WR, although the odds for that are low. Russia will only lose 2 of its attacking pieces, 1 fighter and 1 armor, while a UKR+WR attack will cause it to spend 3 armor but they will destroy an additional German art+arm.
    However, the loss of the fighter hurts Russia on the long run if it isn’t replaced. I’m a huge fan of armor for Russia like Grenada and I like to get myself a 10 armor stack to move around and slow the Axis advance but it will take more than 5 or 6 turns before the UK/US can move into Eastern Europe and stop any German advances against Russia. And during the initial 2-3 turns the Russians will have to contest 3 territories against Germany (Karelia, Belo and Ukraine), and afterwards usually start dealing with the Japanese.
    You will need that 2nd fighter for those battles and to have 1 artillery always on the board to fight those 3 battles against Germany, otherwise you either concede the territory to Germany or have to use some of your T-34s.
    By the time the Allies start liberating Karelia and taking that burden off Russia, it will still have to fight back into 2 territories. With only 1 fighter, it will either have to use art/armor to take them but with 2 fighters it can stop building any artillery, buy additional armor and use it all against the incoming Japanese units on Asia, instead of Europe.
    Regarding the view that it might help a US Pacific strat by allowing the UK an early landing on Norway, I say that against a KJF, Germany’s will have to play very aggressively, regardless of Norway/Ukraine. Stacking Ukraine allows it to directly pressure the Caucasus - Russia is now tied to defending it instead of pressuring Japan on Asia, and loses the ability to contest Belorussia/Ukraine, denying Russia 5 IPCs. Or stacking Karelia to cut off the inflow of UK units. Whatever happens, I think I still prefer to keep that Russian fighter and destroy the German stack on Ukraine. If you want to defeat Japan on the Pacific you’ll have to stop it from increasing its income on Asia, while at the same time holding off the Germans until the UK is able to counter them.
    Getting back to the fighter/battleship. The fighter allows Russia to save 4-5 IPCs per turn in offensive units that otherwise would be destroyed in German counterattacks. The battleship corresponds to 1 destroyer + 1 cruiser for fleet defense and for a quicker buildup of transports and ground units by the UK, plus the bombardment shot.


  • Hobbes, I agree with everything you said. However, if 1) the 2nd fighter is so important, 2) you usually buy extra armor with Russia, and 3) Norway Gambit saves extra armor for Russia; then it’s just as easy to replace the 2nd fighter as to replace the 2 armor, right?


  • @El:

    Hobbes, I agree with everything you said. However, if 1) the 2nd fighter is so important, 2) you usually buy extra armor with Russia, and 3) Norway Gambit saves extra armor for Russia; then it’s just as easy to replace the 2nd fighter as to replace the 2 armor, right?

    Yes, yes and yes.

    But with the Gambit now G also has an extra art+arm on Ukraine, most likely can stack Ukraine and force Russia to keep its armor stack on Caucasus on turn 2 and abandon West Russia. What do you prefer?


  • @Hobbes:

    @El:

    Hobbes, I agree with everything you said. However, if 1) the 2nd fighter is so important, 2) you usually buy extra armor with Russia, and 3) Norway Gambit saves extra armor for Russia; then it’s just as easy to replace the 2nd fighter as to replace the 2 armor, right?

    Yes, yes and yes.

    But with the Gambit now G also has an extra art+arm on Ukraine, most likely can stack Ukraine and force Russia to keep its armor stack on Caucasus on turn 2 and abandon West Russia. What do you prefer?

    I think it really is a bit more complicated then that. You certainly do not need to abandon WR to keep Cauc R2. In our game Germany R2 could not take WR by any means. It could take cauc of course but did not do it because it could possibly create a situation when all Germany units both ukr and cauc could have been anihilated. Moreover if I did a bit more offensive buy R2 with Russia Germany could really have been compelled to leaving UKR R3 as you suggested earlier. And with UK/US having 19 units on kar at the end of R4 there was really no question of russias need of trading three teritories with G anymore. The thing was I did not protect my US fleet aginst the japy air properly but now I see it was possible to leave it SZ 7 US3 and the pressure would be ongoing from then on.

    When it comes to trades and the second R fig, I am not convinced that in the classic set up of G/R trades (G sits on EE, R sits on WR and trade KAR, BEL and UKR) Bel is mandatory trade for R. If G is on real defensive you can trade a terriotry sending 3 inf on 1 but definitely not mandatory to trade all three territories if you only have 1 fig and 1 art ready. But this really occures very rarely. And I also do not think Russia should trade inf for inf on the 2IPC territories with japan. IMHO 2 IPC territories are not a good trade for Russia even if it had 3 figs. Since you are lighter on air in any case, you have a higher likelihood of losing more inf then Jap on those trades and it really is not worthy of the 2 IPC shift unless there are more stretegic concerns involved in such a trade.


  • This is the complete game Hobbes vs. me including the last rounds.

    HobbesMay0611.tsvg


  • @Hobbes:

    @El:

    Hobbes, I agree with everything you said. However, if 1) the 2nd fighter is so important, 2) you usually buy extra armor with Russia, and 3) Norway Gambit saves extra armor for Russia; then it’s just as easy to replace the 2nd fighter as to replace the 2 armor, right?

    Yes, yes and yes.

    But with the Gambit now G also has an extra art+arm on Ukraine, most likely can stack Ukraine and force Russia to keep its armor stack on Caucasus on turn 2 and abandon West Russia. What do you prefer?

    The real answer is I don’t know. I play on GameTable Online and have tried both openings, but have yet to encounter a good aggressive German answer to Norway Gambit. More testing seems necessary, maybe also in Low Luck. At least the game between you and Granada looks very interesting for both sides.


  • By the way, is there a short and sexy name for the R1 Ukraine attack? Norway Gambit sounds sweet, but “Standard R1 Ukraine attack” is kinda dull… Ukraine Bash, Ukraine Crush, Ukraine Beats?

  • '12

    I must be missing something with the TripleA software, it does not seem intuitive.  I can load the saved game but then what?  I’m guessing I press the ‘Play’ button?  When I do, I get a window that pops up:

    ‘An error has occured’

    java.lang.IllegalStateException: Could not find file for map:World War II v4
    at games.strategy.triplea.ResourceLoader.getPaths(ResourceLoader.java:67)
    at games.strategy.triplea.ResourceLoader.getMapresourceLoader(ResourceLoader.java:33)
    at games.strategy.triplea.ui.UIContext.internalSetMapDir(UIContext.java:189)
    at games.strategy.triplea.ui.UIContext.setDefaltMapDir(UIContext.java:162)

    etc etc etc


  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    I must be missing something with the TripleA software, it does not seem intuitive.  I can load the saved game but then what?  I’m guessing I press the ‘Play’ button?  When I do, I get a window that pops up:

    ‘An error has occured’

    java.lang.IllegalStateException: Could not find file for map:World War II v4
    at games.strategy.triplea.ResourceLoader.getPaths(ResourceLoader.java:67)
    at games.strategy.triplea.ResourceLoader.getMapresourceLoader(ResourceLoader.java:33)
    at games.strategy.triplea.ui.UIContext.internalSetMapDir(UIContext.java:189)
    at games.strategy.triplea.ui.UIContext.setDefaltMapDir(UIContext.java:162)

    etc etc etc

    MrMalachi, I think you do not have the V4 map installed. You have to download and install it first. It is the very last button on the TripleA opening screen “Download Maps”


  • I just tried the Gambit in dice and I think I like it, since I m a rather defence-oriented russian player.
    There is also IMHO a positive side-effect in it: With the UK BB in the Atlantic, the US can spare a few IPCs and slowly buy itself a small Pacific fleet just to prevent J from cheaply snatching AUS and NZL by R4 or 5.

    There 's also a spin-off, “The Norwegian Gambit: Stalin goes to Vegas”. A 3-front attack in NOR (1 ftr), WR and UKR. If it works, the psychological damage to the Axis player will surely make it up for the russian ftr.


  • @Advosan:

    I just tried the Gambit in dice and I think I like it, since I m a rather defence-oriented russian player.
    There is also IMHO a positive side-effect in it: With the UK BB in the Atlantic, the US can spare a few IPCs and slowly buy itself a small Pacific fleet just to prevent J from cheaply snatching AUS and NZL by R4 or 5.

    There 's also a spin-off, “The Norwegian Gambit: Stalin goes to Vegas”. A 3-front attack in NOR (1 ftr), WR and UKR. If it works, the psychological damage to the Axis player will surely make it up for the russian ftr.

    G can retake all 3 territories and destroy most of the Russian army in the process. And losing WR on G1 is bad for Russia.


  • @Hobbes:

    @Advosan:

    I just tried the Gambit in dice and I think I like it, since I m a rather defence-oriented russian player.
    There is also IMHO a positive side-effect in it: With the UK BB in the Atlantic, the US can spare a few IPCs and slowly buy itself a small Pacific fleet just to prevent J from cheaply snatching AUS and NZL by R4 or 5.

    There 's also a spin-off, “The Norwegian Gambit: Stalin goes to Vegas”. A 3-front attack in NOR (1 ftr), WR and UKR. If it works, the psychological damage to the Axis player will surely make it up for the russian ftr.

    G can retake all 3 territories and destroy most of the Russian army in the process. And losing WR on G1 is bad for Russia.

    :-D This is surely not a spin-off of the NG. If it was a move with japanese I would call it a seppuka move. Don’t believe in any psychological demage in AAA. The difference to real war is that the player can plainly sea all of the battlefield all of the time. So against a cold-blooded experienced player any attempts to do a “I-Will-Kill-You-Like-Hell-Before-You-Say-A-Word” move are likely to end up in a “I-Will-Kill-You-Like-Hell-Before-You-Say-A-Word” on the wrong side of the table. Never do a triple attack in V4.


  • @Granada:

    @Hobbes:

    @Advosan:

    I just tried the Gambit in dice and I think I like it, since I m a rather defence-oriented russian player.
    There is also IMHO a positive side-effect in it: With the UK BB in the Atlantic, the US can spare a few IPCs and slowly buy itself a small Pacific fleet just to prevent J from cheaply snatching AUS and NZL by R4 or 5.

    There 's also a spin-off, “The Norwegian Gambit: Stalin goes to Vegas”. A 3-front attack in NOR (1 ftr), WR and UKR. If it works, the psychological damage to the Axis player will surely make it up for the russian ftr.

    G can retake all 3 territories and destroy most of the Russian army in the process. And losing WR on G1 is bad for Russia.

    :-D This is surely not a spin-off of the NG. If it was a move with japanese I would call it a seppuka move. Don’t believe in any psychological demage in AAA. The difference to real war is that the player can plainly sea all of the battlefield all of the time. So against a cold-blooded experienced player any attempts to do a “I-Will-Kill-You-Like-Hell-Before-You-Say-A-Word” move are likely to end up in a “I-Will-Kill-You-Like-Hell-Before-You-Say-A-Word” on the wrong side of the table. Never do a triple attack in V4.

    I m just kidding :-D, I know you are right. Fortifying WR is the single most importand thing for R1-and for every round acctually. Losing WR “decapitates” the russian frontline, and this is IMHO the only major weakness of the NG: It leaves WR troops exposed to a devastating G counter, and combined with a 5 inf-5 arm purchase Europe will become a no man’s land for the Russians pretty fast.


  • @El:

    By the way, is there a short and sexy name for the R1 Ukraine attack? Norway Gambit sounds sweet, but “Standard R1 Ukraine attack” is kinda dull… Ukraine Bash, Ukraine Crush, Ukraine Beats?

    Sigh pretentious names . . .
    Call it Russian Bear Rampage, or whatever as you please.  Only don’t expect anyone to understand you.


  • @Advosan:

    I just tried the Gambit in dice and I think I like it, since I m a rather defence-oriented russian player.
    There is also IMHO a positive side-effect in it: With the UK BB in the Atlantic, the US can spare a few IPCs and slowly buy itself a small Pacific fleet just to prevent J from cheaply snatching AUS and NZL by R4 or 5.

    There 's also a spin-off, “The Norwegian Gambit: Stalin goes to Vegas”. A 3-front attack in NOR (1 ftr), WR and UKR. If it works, the psychological damage to the Axis player will surely make it up for the russian ftr.

    Cute name for it Advosan!  (I hate cute names . . .)

    I personally would call the Nor/WR/Ukr attack “Stalin’s Nightmare” or perhaps “Three Little Bears Wander Into A Wolf’s Lair” or “Russian Roulette”

    The odds are good that at least one of the attacks fails, and depending on dice results, you can set Germany up for TURBO TANK DASH, which is about ten times nastier than a regular German tank dash.  Basically Germany forgoes Africa, lands enough units in Caucasus to hold it against the UK1 fighter/bomber/infantry combo, whacks West Russia with the Belorussia infantry and air, then Japan flies in 4 fighters to reinforce Caucasus, leaving Russia unable to recapture.  G2 sees the G1 tank build rush into Ukraine, while Germany starts popping units out on Moscow’s doorstep, while Germany doesn’t even have to recapture Western Europe from UK - it’s IPCs in UK’s bank, but UK can’t mount any sort of serious threat to Berlin or Rome, while Moscow’s about to break in half.

    This whole scenario is pretty much impossible for a WR/Ukr attack, but a Nor/WR/Ukr sets it up.

    If you’re talking about playing Low Luck, better mention that.  Low Luck is a house rule.  Dice is the default.


  • In all seriousness, the names are useful when you’re typing up a strategy post and need short references like NG. Ukraine Opening will do just as fine, if it sticks (but still less cool than Norwegian Gambit).


  • @El:

    In all seriousness, the names are useful when you’re typing up a strategy post and need short references like NG. Ukraine Opening will do just as fine, if it sticks (but still less cool than Norwegian Gambit).

    Clarity > Coolness.

    Although just CHECK out my new profile image and saying.  Yeah.

Suggested Topics

  • 7
  • 5
  • 6
  • 9
  • 3
  • 5
  • 7
  • 8
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures

44

Online

17.0k

Users

39.3k

Topics

1.7m

Posts