Where to build a Jap IC

[Zhukov44]

@JimmyHat:

The reason I suggest the IC in manch J1 has 2 reasons.  Primarily it is a lure, to get the Russian inf stack to stay on the coast and be annihilated by a Jap amphib on J2.  Secondly, provided the Russians are more tactically aware and leave it alone, it will then produce ground units for the war in China and later on Russia.  Destroying those Russian 7 inf on the coast opens the road to Moscow, adding pressure as early as possible.  Manch can be defended from the Russian stack(provided no bmb build in caucusus) with 1 inf plus 2 ftrs or so.

If I’m Russia I like this attack (7 inf against 1 inf 2 fig).  It’s 70% to win with with an average 3 inf remaining, and afterwards Japan needs to divert a transport or 2 from SZ 50 or 61 to counter Man.  Since you’ve bought no trans J1, the Japanese expansion onto the islands and acquisition of the final NO will be relatively slow, especially if 1-3 transports were sunk between J1 and J2 by Allied air/naval.

Of course, you could leave more infantry to defend Man, but the trade-off is risking slowing Japan’s expansion into China.

Man is an excellent place for a Jap factory but I’d rather max out Japan’s capacity before thinking about additional production.

[Hobbes]

@Zhukov44:

Man is an excellent place for a Jap factory but I’d rather max out Japan’s capacity before thinking about additional production.

Other than dealing with the Chinese, I find Manchuria to be one of the less recommended places for the IC. The reason is that units built on Japan can be transported to Soviet Far East, taking the same time to reach Moscow than units built on Manchuria. And since you can divert some of those units to Manchuria to help with the Chinese then the IC doesn’t give you really an advantage. Of course, if you are using it to build only armor then they will have an advantage reaching Moscow first than armor built on J and offloaded to SFE.

[SilverBullet]

on j1 i buy 2 transports and a man. on j2 i buy 2 factories and a tank, if all looks good(i have 4 transports near india/burma), i build my factories on the islands, borneo and ei, i call it the “twin island factory” strategy. if u do this strat, u must marry/dedicate 4 transports to the factories so each one can produce 2 men and 2 tanks a turn. thats 4 men and 4 tanks every turn getting transported to the mainland. it is a little slower start then building factories on the mainland, but as soon as u r set up, u produce double the units then if ur factories were in burma and frindo. also island factories r pretty safe from russian tanks and allied bombers.

[Stickman]

@SilverBullet:

on j1 i buy 2 transports and a man. on j2 i buy 2 factories and a tank, if all looks good(i have 4 transports near india/burma), i build my factories on the islands, borneo and ei, i call it the “twin island factory” strategy. if u do this strat, u must marry/dedicate 4 transports to the factories so each one can produce 2 men and 2 tanks a turn. thats 4 men and 4 tanks every turn getting transported to the mainland. it is a little slower start then building factories on the mainland, but as soon as u r set up, u produce double the units then if ur factories were in burma and frindo. also island factories r pretty safe from russian tanks and allied bombers.

Factories can’t be built on Islands.

[Hobbes]

@Stickman:

@SilverBullet:

on j1 i buy 2 transports and a man. on j2 i buy 2 factories and a tank, if all looks good(i have 4 transports near india/burma), i build my factories on the islands, borneo and ei, i call it the “twin island factory” strategy. if u do this strat, u must marry/dedicate 4 transports to the factories so each one can produce 2 men and 2 tanks a turn. thats 4 men and 4 tanks every turn getting transported to the mainland. it is a little slower start then building factories on the mainland, but as soon as u r set up, u produce double the units then if ur factories were in burma and frindo. also island factories r pretty safe from russian tanks and allied bombers.

Factories can’t be built on Islands.

Yes they can. This is AA50, not AAP/E/G40

[Stickman]

Oh, sorry I thought I was in the Global section.  :oops:

[calvinhobbesliker]

In E40, you don’t need that rule anyway since there is no island worth more than 1 ipc.

[Zhukov44]

@Hobbes:

@Zhukov44:

Man is an excellent place for a Jap factory but I’d rather max out Japan’s capacity before thinking about additional production.

Other than dealing with the Chinese, I find Manchuria to be one of the less recommended places for the IC. The reason is that units built on Japan can be transported to Soviet Far East, taking the same time to reach Moscow than units built on Manchuria. And since you can divert some of those units to Manchuria to help with the Chinese then the IC doesn’t give you really an advantage. Of course, if you are using it to build only armor then they will have an advantage reaching Moscow first than armor built on J and offloaded to SFE.

Japan has limited options, and needs an IC or two (or three) in most games.  Since it takes awhile to secure India….what’s the next best choice?  Manchuria is a 3 and its on the mainland.  In situations where after J3-J4 I’m producing all armor anyway, I’m betting a 3 ipc factory is a better investment than a 2 ipc factory over time.

Overall Man is likely a better value than Sum because you don’t have to invest naval resources or aa guns to defend/exploit it…  Unlike Fic/Bur/Sum, Man cannot be bombed or captured by the Allies, and since it is close to Japan, it makes for a defensible mainland stronghold.

[JimmyHat]

I agree that it is defensible.  Japan will most likely be concerned with defending the Japsz, and Manch is part of that area.  I did find Hobbes point that it isn’t really closer to Moscow to be quite intriguing.  As a base for purely 3 armor purchases, it is superior, but if you plan on building inf from there they would be better built on Japan itself and shipped over.

I am just not a fan of an IC in FIC.  It seems like 2 produciton is far to small to defend itself.  The only reason I can see building it is to try and deter an IC in India.  Not sure if a UK IC in india is bad for the allies or not.

[a44bigdog]

I build a J1 IC in FIC. This gives me a very early resupply of troops and attack pieces (arty) in the South West Asia, CBI,and South West Pacific areas. While an IC and sometimes even a latter one in Burma do not equal the production of island ICs, they do not require Naval defense and transport. I build a second IC in Manchuria when this and Japan maxes out, which is about turn 3. Depending on how early I capture India I will put an IC there or Burma, and by late may have built one in Burma after building one in India. I also like the ability of FIC to drop ships in SZ36 and SZ37.

[koffiekroft]

I standard build a IC in Manchuria. Its the most bang for a buck. Then later I build an IC in India as well. These combined give Japan the IC output it needs to take on the Allies and the SU.

[JimmyHat]

my personal preference for an IC in manch has waxed and waned over the weeks since finding this game, I believe I have fallen on the side of Pro Manch IC.  Even if you are afriad you will lose it J2, having it there helps to secure china and the northern road to moscow.  I am a big fan of the northern road since it is unsupported by brits moving through the middle east and takes money directly away from Russia during the advance.

[SilverBullet]

a manch factory is stupid(imo), u already can produce 8 from tokyo. also, persia is  better target for the japs then trying to get 2 moscow up north, a good russian player can stop jap advance up north easier then from the south. and if u build 2 twin island factories on j2, u can probably build another one in india or burma on j3, and another(india or burma) on j4. that will give u enough production 2 threaten(take) persia(or africa).

[JimmyHat]

please elaborate on how the Russians are going to stop the Japanese advance in the north?  My opponent keeps building the Manch IC J1 and then pumps out 3 tanks a round.  Add to that a landing in SFE of 3 inf 3 arm or 4 inf 4 arm and very soon japan has Evenki and is trading urals/novo.  I can usually trade india and keep china alive for much of the game, but what does that matter if Japan is in Moscow?

BTW, I usually have UK with fleet in Atlantic and trying to build a ground army of their own(karelia or Finland) and the US is shucking 4 inf to africa and messing with Japan in pacific.

[axis_roll]

The only thing I can think of is to help the 7-9 russian inf that have w/d from out east is with some allied ftrs.  If you make a stand in Evenki, and the UK navy is stationed in SZ3, ftrs can make it to evenki, and you can add additional ftrs as needed  andd replace with UK or even US ftrs bought in EUS (to SZ3)

[Zhukov44]

Theoretically, you can contain both Chi and Evenki with a stack of inf/art on Nov and tanks on Russia.  However, that requires keeping significant forces in places like Nov and Rus that are far away from Western Europe and the big Russia NO.

I think what Silver means when he refers to it being easier to kill Russia from Persia is 1) the industry from Ind/Bur/Sum is the fastest route to Russia and 2) late game, the mechanics of breaking down Russia are easier if you are coming from Persia, since you can reduce Cau and downsize Russia’s production.

But first Japan must stack Persia, which ought to be a challenge.  A good Russian player should anticipate this and deadzone Persia.

The easiest way for Japan to prevent that is advance with infantry on all fronts, wear down Russia via attrition.

So I wouldn’t recommend a Northern or Southern route.  Better to get as many boots on the ground as you can and then adapt to what the Allies are doing.

[SilverBullet]

manch factories r a waste imo.

#1: u can build 8 units in tokyo if u want 2 try flooding the north.(which is a bad strat imo)

#2: the islands have 4 production and japan has the transports it needs 2 take advantage of the island factories.(plus they produce units in the south, and japans aim should be india/persia imo)

[Zhukov44]

@SilverBullet:

#2: the islands have 4 production and japan has the transports it needs 2 take advantage of the island factories.(plus they produce units in the south, and japans aim should be india/persia imo)

While in some circumstances Sumatra should be developed before Man, I disagree with your post–here’s my reasoning.

Island factories tie up fleet and transports, reducing the speed of Japan’s amphibious expansion.  In order to take full advantage of the island factories AND Japan AND continue to expand overseas, you need to buy several new transports.  Sometimes, players just leave the Japan factory unused.  This is 1) inefficient and 2) a potential blunder if you end up scimping on China and Siberia and missing out on key swing ipcs, or if you allow Russian tanks to blitz those fronts.

Another factor to weigh is that island factories are liabilities against a USA Pac offensive–once USA gets going you can’t protect both SZ 62 and SZ 37 or 35 every turn…whatever happens, as long as the fleet is divided it will cost you space and initiative, and if you keep your fleet divided eventually USA will destroy one of them.  So imho it’s not safe to place them on J2 if USA could still come after you.

[Yoshi]

@SilverBullet:

#1: u can build 8 units in tokyo if u want 2 try flooding the north.(which is a bad strat imo)

#2: the islands have 4 production and japan has the transports it needs 2 take advantage of the island factories.(plus they produce units in the south, and japans aim should be india/persia imo)

But what if your fleet has to fight against the US ?

Your fleet cannot be in sz62 to protect the trannies and in the same time stopping the US progress somewhere else in the Pacific (and with CV + fighters, it’s quite easy for the US to put a pressure on several sea zones).

The main interest of IC on the main land is that you do not have to consider the position of your fleet. You will always be able to produce there and use the produced units. I already played a game as the Allies where I killed the japanese fleet but where Japan was far away from being dead, becaus of 3 or 4 ICs on the mainland. If you focus on Japan, EI or Borneo, loosing your fleet means game over.

I usually build in FIC, and very often in J1. Because this IC give the maximum of options : troops on the mainland that  can fight either in China (Chinghai is at the same distance from FIC and from Manchuria) or towards India ; but whatever the Allies do, this will be usefull : 2tnk a turn towards Russia when facing a KGF, infantries if China survived for any reasons ; ships to fight the US ; ships that you cannot build safely in sz62 (see for instance the final of the last tournament where I built a lof of times a CV there because my fleet was in sz50 to contain any US move).

The only exception to the FIC IC would be when not built on J1 (that mean because of the bid or a R1 bomber so that I want to go after Burma and keep Philippines for J2 ; in such case, I build two trannies on J1 to be sure I can take everything I want on J2), and the US goes away from Pacific.

After that, it depends a lot of the situation : I like Manchuria if I sea that I need my fleet somwhere else and that there is some resistance in China / north way towards russia. I like East Indies when facing a KGF or a round 1 India IC. India can be the best second IC if qui safe. But I have no rule for that, all depend on the game.

[SilverBullet]

on j1 i always buy 2 transports and a man, then i see what usa does,
if usa goes atl, i love my twin island factories on j2(along with a tank), imo, japan has plenty of transports for the task, i usually keep 2 in tokyo so i do put a little pressure on russia from the north, but i love dropping 8 units a round from my factories, and like i said, on j3 i usually buy another factory and yet another on j4, as long as u aint playing vs a master, japan should be able 2 take persia, then cauc then moscow faster then going heavy 2 the north. gj taught me the folly of trying 2 go north or thru china. as someone said, russia can easily halt japs advance with tanks in msocow and inf in novo. now im not saying im master or that this is the very best strat, but the next game u r in, and usa goes atl, buy 2 island factories on j2 and see if u ca make it work.  ;)