……and we got a winner :-D
Test
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“Emu–first of all, let me say I have been in agreement w/ you from the beginning about the Nagasaki thing. It had not yet been heavily bombed by 1945 because it was a very minor military target…”
How many times must I have to debate this argument? First of all, Nagasaki, Kokura, Hiroshima, Niigata, and Kyoto were all important targets. Just because they had not been heavily bombed yet did not mean they wouldn’t be. Many of the targets had been previously bombed, though not to such a large extent as places like Tokyo. Even then, the highly destructive Tokyo Bombing Raids did not occurred until March 1945 – should this be considered a “very minor military target” based on the assumption it had not been “heavily” bombed pre-1945?
There are many other aspects to consider. From May-July 1945, many strategic planners opted to hold off on bombing those places (the five I listed) because they wanted the Manhattan planners measure the scope of the destruction. Furthermore, the entire scope of such bombing missions could not be widened enough until March and June 1945, when the islands of Iwo Jima and Okinawa were taken to provide B-29’s with landing sights for safe returns. This should be factored in with the availability of B-29’s from Saipan, Guam, and Tinian, in which to make such raids - a mere two months before the end of 1944 (the first group [498th Bomb Group] did not arrive until October 1944). Given such a grueling pace of operations with such sort start up time, is it reasonable to suggest that given 1945, all cities of “major” military targets had been heavily bombed?
Then there is Nagasaki to bring up itself. Nagasaki was a very valuable military and industrial target (as I mentioned many times before). It was often called the “San Francisco” of Japan due to its very valuable Naval Ports. In fact, Nagasaki held many of Japan’s vital [Mitsubishi] shipyards, along with an arrary of war production facilities.
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@TG:
“And it is surely not illegal to chew gum, whoever told you that seems to be an idiot.”
She’s probably referring to why the streets are so clean. Go to America (esp. our public school system) and see our sidewalks littered with the black spots from discarded gum. I have still not figured out why people do this? A trashcan shouldn’t be too hard to find.They do that in germany as well, esp. look at train and subway stations… They get cleaned every now and then though, so i don’t know how they compare …
“Otherwise try a local “Oktoberfest”.”
Wha– what the hell? Is this some sort of Russian beer?
Na, it’s the world famous bavarian beer festival… They even “exported” it, so you can see Oktoberfests in Melbourne or Japan :)
I have a question of my own, do Hamburgs call themselves Hamburgers? :lol: :wink:
The call themselves Hamburger (singular and plural is the same….)
And did you know why the Hamburger (the food) is called that? There is no ham in it! … It was first invented by a person from Hamburg :)Seriously? You are? I thought you were a deported German living in Australia? I’m sure I heard this somewhere before…
I am supposed to get back on friday … but i just received news that Quantas will be on strike that day AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH !!!
“I, and F_alk, are from Germany,
We are also representing the Atheistic Leftish European”FinsterniS is German? I thought he was some French dude. I know Strasbourg is on the border of Germany and France, but wha-what the hell?
There are two germans posting here regularly, and both do not live in germany …. that must be irritating :) :)
For all she knows, it’s probably some sort of German mustard. Heck, all I know is that it’s some sort of white sausage that is some [Southern] Germans are famous far.
It’s a asausage, and u usually serve it with Brezels (what you would call Pretzel) and a sweet mustard….yuck…
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F_alk, about what you said about other groups being targetted, I know they were and no one is denying that they were. But the others, such as the Roma, were not considered threats to Hitler’s “Aryan Race”.
They were considered “not part of that race” or “abnormal”. That was enough to get slaughtered.
There were beatings in the streets and attacks such as Kristallnacht. The Germans knew EXACTLY what was happening.
Some germans knew some things. Many didn’t want to know. If they knew, how comes that the most famous resistance group (Weisse Rose, white rose) printed flyers at their university.
When they started, they apparntly didn’t know much about the crimes that were done in the name of germany (though they learnt more about it later in 1942/43). In their second flyer, they state and accuse the killing of 300.000 Jews in Poland since the war has started (the second flyer was summer '42).
If even resistance does only know such a bit, i can’t imagine that “the usual” citizen knew much more.The German people and other European people lived near the concentration camps. They saw the misery and continued to hate the Jews and help the Germans.
The major death camps were in eastern europe. THe nazi regime was smart enough not to let too many germans know exactly about the death camps. The existance of concentration camps was well known, but they probably were perceived more as the british kind of concentration camp and working camp.
And hte Germans didn’t just “gas them in camps”. Mny werre tortured in such things as Dr/ Mengele’s experiments.
Even the Jews didn’t believe that “civilzefd germany” could do such things, and some refused to emigrate., thinking “it will get better”…. a horrible mistake
Another difference between what happened to the Jews and other mintrities in Europe. The Jewish children were targets while they were not in other minorities.
Mentally challenged kids suffered the same and were sent into the gas as well (one of the facts Sophie Scholl of the Weisse Rose learnt after she had started).
I still feel that the Germans deserved every bomb that hit them in Dresden and other cities. They helped Hitler with his crimes (don’t forget about the ghettos & that there were death camps in Germny too) and deserved the napalms and other weapons dropped on them. In crimes against humanity you mustresist even your government, and they failed to do so. It’s horrible that they had to suffer, but it was justice.
yes and no
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“Na, it’s the world famous bavarian beer festival… They even “exported” it, so you can see Oktoberfests in Melbourne or Japan ”
Nein, I not that big of a fan of German beer. Sure, they may go down easy, but the hang over is terrible – or so I heard.
“The call themselves Hamburger (singular and plural is the same…)
And did you know why the Hamburger (the food) is called that? There is no ham in it! … It was first invented by a person from Hamburg ”Well I know in the original story of the Hamburger, the patty was actually ham, not beef. Crazy Germans! :wink: So do people from Frankfurt call themselves Frankfurters then? Sweet!
“There are two germans posting here regularly, and both do not live in germany … that must be irritating”
Pretty sad, I expected more, I expected better. I much don’t much don’t like leaving my country for another – though there are some exceptions. :wink:
“I am supposed to get back on friday … but i just received news that Quantas will be on strike that day AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH !!!”
What is gawd’s sake are you doing in Australia anyways? And this time of year? The heat and bugs are unbearable!
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@TG:
Then there is Nagasaki to bring up itself. Nagasaki was a very valuable military and industrial target (as I mentioned many times before). It was often called the “San Francisco” of Japan due to its very valuable Naval Ports. In fact, Nagasaki held many of Japan’s vital [Mitsubishi] shipyards, along with an arrary of war production facilities.
…fine. Then EmuGod and I don’t agree on anything. Are you happy? :wink:
TM Moses–don’t believe it about German cities! American cities are cleaner (San Francisco anyways). Now, I love Germany with a passion, but facts is facts–you are a lot less likely to be hit by a hot blast of urine-soaked air in the USA than in Germany, depending on where you go (obviously New York vs. Bremerhaven is no contest, but still…)
Just my opinion–no offense intended…
ozone27
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@TG:
What is gawd’s sake are you doing in Australia anyways? And this time of year? The heat and bugs are unbearable!
Southern Hemisphere: summer = winter :)
And it’s not that bad, depending on the part of the country you are. -
“…fine. Then EmuGod and I don’t agree on anything. Are you happy? ”
Yes and no. Yes because it goes to prove Nagasaki was a justified target, and no, because I still feel guilt for us having to do it. What difference does it make between the civilians from Hiroshima and the civilians from Nagasaki?
”TM Moses–don’t believe it about German cities! American cities are cleaner (San Francisco anyways). Now, I love Germany with a passion, but facts is facts–you are a lot less likely to be hit by a hot blast of urine-soaked air in the USA than in Germany, depending on where you go (obviously New York vs. Bremerhaven is no contest, but still…)
Just my opinion–no offense intended…”
I don’t know, I’ve been to San Francisco recently and even though they have those neat, green “cleaner-mobiles,” it’s still not much to write home about. Their downtown metropolitan areas may be the best (better than LA and NY I reckon) in US, but the rest of it still has a lot of waste and gum on the streets. Anyways, even I feel like an “outsider” there – my friends and I like to make jokes with the locals saying we’re from LA and we don’t know any better :wink:
BTW: I like Germans/Germany too, but I was left a tad disappointed when I encountered some (even the new arrivals). Lets just say, don’t believe the hype.
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@TG:
BTW: I like Germans/Germany too, but I was left a tad disappointed when I encountered some (even the new arrivals). Lets just say, don’t believe the hype.
…please elaborate…! :)
Ozone27
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would be interesting to hear what kind of “hype” you are talking about…about germans :)……
i am quite curious
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“TM Moses–don’t believe it about German cities! American cities are cleaner (San Francisco anyways). Now, I love Germany with a passion, but facts is facts–you are a lot less likely to be hit by a hot blast of urine-soaked air in the USA than in Germany, depending on where you go (obviously New York vs. Bremerhaven is no contest, but still…)”
Sir Ozone, do not forget Santa Rosa! It is a lovely place! I love the landscape decoration. :D
“I am supposed to get back on friday … but i just received news that Quantas will be on strike that day AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH !!!”
What is a ‘Quantas’ and why would they be on strike?
“There are two germans posting here regularly, and both do not live in germany … that must be irritating”
I like to see people travel. TG needs to get out more for a change! :wink:
“Take 83 Million ppl on the size of about Montana (which has 880 thousand ppl) … recycling (a) saves ressources and energy and (b) reduces pollution. So, my question is: Why does anyone not recycle? It is irresponsible not to”
I agree with you wholeheartedly. You would think people would understand that planets like these do not come a dime or a Deutschmark :) a dozen. I hope people can learn before it is too late :(
“Weisswurst is a yucky bavarian sausage, and you get “the real ones” only in southern germany. Otherwise try a local “Oktoberfest”.”
That is too bad. Does Germany have any good vegetarian dishes you have tried?
PS: Thank you for answering my questions!!! Hamburg now and forever! :D
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@TM:
Sir Ozone, do not forget Santa Rosa! It is a lovely place! I love the landscape decoration. :D
What is a ‘Quantas’ and why would they be on strike?
Thanks. Though have you been to S.R. recently? Seen the giant concrete hand that now blights our downtown–as well as the recently-built 3D Charlie Brown statue (that theoretically honors Charles Schultz)-- :cry: creepy! Oh well maybe you can see the beauty that I miss…
Sonoma County does rule though… :D
BTW Qantas (no ‘u’) is Australia’s national airline.
Also BTW–no more Deutschmarks–Euros! :lol:
Ozone27
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@Ozone:
Thanks. Though have you been to S.R. recently? Seen the giant concrete hand that now blights our downtown–as well as the recently-built 3D Charlie Brown statue (that theoretically honors Charles Schultz)-- creepy! Oh well maybe you can see the beauty that I miss…
Well, I can tell you a giant concrete hand does exactly fit in with the SR motif. But I do say a 3D statue of Charlie Brown sure is classy. I can still remember the good ‘ol days of comics – not the horribly spliced Sunday Comic strips we have today. There use to be a time where comics consisted of more than two strips – ahhh… those were the days. :roll:
Sonoma County does rule though…
I don’t know. I think your neck of the woods is better.
Also BTW–no more Deutschmarks–Euros!
Pleazzz… no real men use “Euros.” Next time I go to Europe, I’ll be sure to stock up on that nation’s currency, not some ugly looking Euros. It’s almost as worst as monopoly/Canadian money!
@”F_alk”:
would be interesting to hear what kind of “hype” you are talking about…about germans ……
Sure, we can use a good story now and then. Anyways, I remember way back at the beginning-middle of the school year, we had recently received some Germans (foreign exchange students I reckon). I think it was five, nice looking people (two or so being of my grade level). Now typically, I naturally saw the German as a threat to the school balance of power. You hear all these fanciful stories on how the Germans are the best… oh about the best at EVERYTHING. What I expected was for the German to take over the school and just excel academically. After all – we were all a bunch of California educated students (yes, the worst in the world), and I expected them to just rape us on test and study habits. However, the strangest thing happened… These Germans weren’t that smart at all!
Well, let me rephrase that. The Germans were for all intensive purposes quite average. And what does being average in California mean compared to the rest of the world? Janitorial position, that’s what! Of course, I was willing to let a few things slide. They didn’t make any honor English courses, perfectly legit considering English wasn’t their primary language. But I will say their English was actually quite good. There was still a touch of German accent (depending on each student), but beyond that, spoken very well. However, the two subjects that I will NOT slide were math and science – something that Germans single handedly wrote the book on (with a few tips from the Canadians of course :wink:). Now I consider myself to be an average student – nothing spectacular, just the simple old soldier I am. However, even then I saw myself besting the Germans on just about every test, quiz, and assignment we took. I was shocked! Here I thought the Germans were going to make me look bad, when in fact, it was the other way around!
Of course, that wasn’t the only thing. Now, figuring that US math and science might be different from German math and science, I supposed I could let that slide. However, then there’s these huge stories of “German efficiency,” “German discipline,” and stuff like that (of course, nothing beats Yankee Ingenuity 8)). Now naturally seeing how Mercedes is a Germany car company, I would agree with this. Once again, I was dead wrong! These Germans I knew were not machines, but for all intensive purposes, slackers. I didn’t know what their study habits were at home, but at school, it was like “why do it today, when I can put it off until tomorrow.” They had become, like me (well usually at school I preoccupied with other "things”). In fact our, math teacher (who I will refer to as Dr. No), yelled at them several times. I’m serious, Dr. No would be like, “Wake up and get with the program! Your parents didn’t send you here for daycare! Either shape, get out! Blahblahblahbalah…” In fact, one of the Germans (a guy) dropped out of Dr. No’s class eventually. What’s up with that?
As for German discipline, about last year, we had a German history teacher. Now normally I was expecting one of those mean, strict teachers, something along of the lines of Dr. No. Instead this teacher, was more concerned about drinking coffee and telling stories about “back in my day… blahblahblahblah…” The schedule in his class was a 15-minute lecture about history (which would usually turn into a 30-minute history of the antics in his life), go over the homework (surprisingly, very light), assign homework, and for the rest of the period – fun time (well except during fun time, he would talk about how Clinton was such a bad president and of his country, Germany. What’s up with this?
Anyways, moral of the story: even “good racism” (for lack of better word), can be bad. -
[quote="TG Moses VI
Also BTW–no more Deutschmarks–Euros!
Pleazzz… no real men use “Euros.” Next time I go to Europe, I’ll be sure to stock up on that nation’s currency, not some ugly looking Euros. It’s almost as worst as monopoly/Canadian money!
Ahem. I think almost every money is more aesthetically pleasing (and less confusing) than American money. Also Euro’s are beautiful. And they vary depending on the country they’re from.
WRT monopoly/Canadian money - just b/c they have the same value does not mean that our money is not in most ways more “attractive” then American money. I also understand that the US is looking into 1$ and 2$ coins - Canadian style :) -
Ahem. I think almost every money is more aesthetically pleasing (and less confusing) than American money. Also Euro’s are beautiful. And they vary depending on the country they’re from.
WRT monopoly/Canadian money - just b/c they have the same value does not mean that our money is not in most ways more “attractive” then American money. I also understand that the US is looking into 1$ and 2$ coins - Canadian styleBah-humbug! I couldn’t disagree with you more! First of all, this new American “money” (well they’re been around since 1995-1996) is a disgrace to the Washington Mint. I have never seen anything so ugly in my life. Aesthetically pleasing? Yeah, maybe to someone without any real taste :x . I remember the good old days, where American money was a intricately designed work of art. It wasn’t the “simplified” versions we have today so old people read it better. Today’s portraits are too big, the text too big, and the border designs too small! Compare an America 1 or 2 dollar bill to a 5, 10, or 20, and you can tell right away that old American money is 10x better. As for the Euro’s, I don’t like them. They look like something printed on toilet paper. The Dutchmark was 10x better looking. :)
As for the Canadian money comment? What is up with you guys? Compared to your old money, the Canadian bills are terrible looking. When I first saw your new bills, I thought it was designed by the same person who did the Monopoly money. I would rather use the IPCs from Axis and Allies :wink:. Anyways, at least you still have your good, Victorian coins. Now those were something! Not the cheap paper money you guys have today.
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@cystic:
[quote="TG Moses VI
Also BTW–no more Deutschmarks–Euros!
Pleazzz… no real men use “Euros.” Next time I go to Europe, I’ll be sure to stock up on that nation’s currency, not some ugly looking Euros. It’s almost as worst as monopoly/Canadian money!
Ahem. I think almost every money is more aesthetically pleasing (and less confusing) than American money. Also Euro’s are beautiful. And they vary depending on the country they’re from.
WRT monopoly/Canadian money - just b/c they have the same value does not mean that our money is not in most ways more “attractive” then American money. I also understand that the US is looking into 1$ and 2$ coins - Canadian style :)Canadian money looks fine……no wait I’ve got an idea, lets make all our money the color green. That way there is no possible way to mix up the denominations and it will illustrate are vivid imaginations.
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@Mr:
@cystic:
[quote="TG Moses VI
Also BTW–no more Deutschmarks–Euros!
Pleazzz… no real men use “Euros.” Next time I go to Europe, I’ll be sure to stock up on that nation’s currency, not some ugly looking Euros. It’s almost as worst as monopoly/Canadian money!
Ahem. I think almost every money is more aesthetically pleasing (and less confusing) than American money. Also Euro’s are beautiful. And they vary depending on the country they’re from.
WRT monopoly/Canadian money - just b/c they have the same value does not mean that our money is not in most ways more “attractive” then American money. I also understand that the US is looking into 1$ and 2$ coins - Canadian style :)Canadian money looks fine……no wait I’ve got an idea, lets make all our money the color green. That way there is no possible way to mix up the denominations and it will illustrate are vivid imaginations.
exactly!
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:lol: about the green money :lol: !
About $1/$2 coins–BADBADBAD IDEA! BOOO! Before the Euro, everything in Germany up to (and including) 5 DM were coins. When me and my buddies went in '95, the mark was about at its strongest–being pretty close in value to $1 (US). Now, unless you were very resourceful (and we were not) and good with your math (which we also were not) by the end of the day you’d be walking around w/ like 10 lbs. of coins, and looking like you were wearing jodhpurs (hmmmmm :wink: )!
TG: Santa Rosa’s IN Sonoma County, silly!–I just think the countryside around here is better…but I appreciate you & TM’s kind words for our lovely city…
About the Germans–first of all, everyone’s different and as you know the “efficient, clever German” is just as much a stereotype as the “dumb American”. I’m sure you agree…
But interestingly, my German friends also spent a year each as exchange students and also did horribly! One is now majoring in History at Jena University, the other…well, he’s studying Geography, but he mainly surfs a lot. Regardless, how do you explain the poor performance in US school?
Well, partly its that our schools aren’t quite THAT bad–you can indeed skate by (as I did), but to excel does require some work. Another reason certainly is the handicap of being a foreigner and having to learn all the new ways & rules & customs while trying to learn as well.
But I think the main reason is that, regardless of what it’s supposed to be, being an exchange student is tantamount to just being on vacation in a foreign country for a year–in some cases the academic year doesn’t even COUNT toward your average! In this situation, and considering all the other factors, I’d say you’d have to be pretty boring to be spending all your time studying when you’re a High School student away from home for maybe the first time in your life in a foreign country with no one to keep an eye on you! :o Just my opinion!Also BTW, my German Instructor at college was a polite lady from Bavaria who in between language lessons liked to tell the students how the Turkish immigrants flooding into Germany were ruining the economy by having 20 kids and sucking off the state. So see, some Germans are just idiots…same as everybody, I guess…
I’m sure you know all this stuff, but thought I’d posit some ideas…
Ozone27
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Moses,
just as Ozone said:
Having “one year off” doesn’t bring out the discipline part, especially when you know in advance, that this year does not bring anything for your school career :)….But you are right: we (germans) are just like all ppl. Maybe, that when there is pressure, we then bring out the stereotypical behaviour. But when we are allowed to slack, we do (germany and australia are AFAIK the ppl most travelling around the globe), and we are good at it :). Efficient at slacking :) …
I consider myself quite lazy … but call it efficient: trying to get things done with least amount of work :D
And of course: It was the Dutch Guilder (sp?) or the Deutsche Mark …
And for Ozone:
I found out that it takes about one year for me to feel “home” after changing my place. That was when moved out from my parents, moved around, and here as well.
The language barrier may be important for some time (depending on your skill in that language), the cultural barrier is more or less strong, depending from where to where you go.
The most important thing is:
When you arrive, you know noone. You start with no friends etc.
That is pretty tough (at least for me it was).
And even after a year, i have met less than a handful of ppl where i think they could become “real friends” ( i differ a lot between the different degrees of friendship ).
But, that could all be because i am from northern germany, which are not the most open of all ppl.And the bavarian teacher:
This is the kind of racism, tha tyou can find way too much in germany. If you meet her again, tell her she should learn proper german, and that bavaria shouldn’t be part of germany at all :) :) :) (bavaria being the state that everyone except the bavarians dislikes :) ) -
TG: Santa Rosa’s IN Sonoma County, silly!–I just think the countryside around here is better…but I appreciate you & TM’s kind words for our lovely city…
No, as a whole Sonoma Country isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be… like Orange County.
Canadian money looks fine……no wait I’ve got an idea, lets make all our money the color green. That way there is no possible way to mix up the denominations and it will illustrate are vivid imaginations.
I wouldn’t say so. Even from a moneyless communist (in theory, not literally! :wink:), I respect finely crafted notes. Also, I like America’s “greenbacks.” What other color can be so easily related to wealth, power, corruption, greed, influence – everything a capitalist desires? Not so with “color coded” paper money! Yeah, I have a green thumb, and money does grow on trees :)
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About the Germans–first of all, everyone’s different and as you know the “efficient, clever German” is just as much a stereotype as the “dumb American”. I’m sure you agree…
Yeah, that’s why I’m trying to prove that other countries have nothing to gain by talking down America’s school systems. Of course the advantage is mine :)
Well, partly its that our schools aren’t quite THAT bad–you can indeed skate by (as I did), but to excel does require some work. Another reason certainly is the handicap of being a foreigner and having to learn all the new ways & rules & customs while trying to learn as well.
Don’t worry, we tried our best to help out the German. But being to other countries “friendly to the US,” in reality the change of customs (except for a few minor ones) wasn’t that difficult.
But I think the main reason is that, regardless of what it’s supposed to be, being an exchange student is tantamount to just being on vacation in a foreign country for a year–in some cases the academic year doesn’t even COUNT toward your average! In this situation, and considering all the other factors, I’d say you’d have to be pretty boring to be spending all your time studying when you’re a High School student away from home for maybe the first time in your life in a foreign country with no one to keep an eye on you! Just my opinion!
Yeah, I guess you are right. However, I am always one to make a favorable impression in person whenever I travel to a new place. Well except in Vegas, where I waltz around like I own the place. Ahhhh… the good old days. Still, as for the Germans that weren’t foreign exchange students, they might’ve become too Americanized.
Also BTW, my German Instructor at college was a polite lady from Bavaria who in between language lessons liked to tell the students how the Turkish immigrants flooding into Germany were ruining the economy by having 20 kids and sucking off the state. So see, some Germans are just idiots…same as everybody, I guess…
Seriously!? Mine too! My German history teacher would always talk about how the Turkish immigrants were destroying Germany and that in 50 years, Germany will cease to exist to be a state we come to known. At first I thought he had too much coffee (where upon he would sing strange sea chanties in Deutch) or some sort of strange racist, so I’m surprised you had the same problem too! He talked about how bad things have become, and Germany can’t do anything about it because it would make Germany look like they were Nazis. That’s why he says, Germans welcome Jews with open arms into their state. With the Jews taking action, Germany can’t be branded and looked upon with holocaust type sentiments. Very interesting… I like to talk more about this.
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