Posts made by templeton

I do hope they find it in their hearts to at some point update the British Infantry… we’ve been stuck with the lame 8th army sculpt for far too long!!!

@Cmdr:

All this tech does is allow you to keep your artillery safely behind the lines - you know, where artillery is in REAL LIFE?

Counter battery fire is what tends to get artillery… anway at the scale of Axis and Allies this would make it more effective than MRLS!

@The:

I’m tired of seeing infantry take down fighters where in real life this would be impossible.

This game is NOT real life… it’s highly abstract, and what it represents is a sustained air-ground campaign to knock out fighting effectivness.

Many planes were shot down conducting low-level attacks over occupied France.

A modern equivalent is Vietnam - look how many planes were shot down over North Vietnam. In game terms, an infantry peice shooting down a US jet peice…

However what Axis and Allies does model well is the econmics of war - so to throw fighters against infantry is uneconomical and foolish. Better to escort bombers to raid industry, which means they can’t replace their losses from repeated ground attacks.

AND - if the Allies are fighting properly, the Americans and British will knock out German industry - whilst the Soveits batter their ground forces. Later in the game, Germany has to sustain three turns worth of attacks (US, UK and USSR)… wthat will quickly thin out their infantry.

There are other WW2 games out there- that include the option to attack neutrals.

It gets to the point that if you have using too many house rules, you have another type of game…

Axis and Allies is not a ‘serious’ wargame - it’s a good fun, solid game with a strong WW2 theme. It’s one of my most played WW2 games, but it just seems easier to play another game with all the rules for neutrals, production, occuption, base industry growth, etc etc…

I’m waiting for the holy grail of a game that sits between Axis and Allies and A World at War - the Europe Engulfed games are pretty good. They would be worth looking at for some ‘house rules’.

http://www.gmtgames.com/bleu/main.html

@Emperor_Taiki:

trucks do not move soldiers thousands of miles. lets try to only add new units if it is realistic

Trucks and jeeps were what helped the Soviets win the war… that is exactly what trucks do, move infantry thousands of miles so they don’t have to walk - they also move their supplies to maintain rapid advances.

The Germans used horses - the Russians and Allies used trucks.

TRUCKS were a war winner…

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Basically, it’s a debate over whether there should be a “clearinghouse” for A&A House Rules that tests and endorses them for general use.

Ogrebait’s position is that too many isolated groups create too many wacky results.

I think you are both right… rules do need testing, and it takes many games to make sure rules maintain a balanced game and don’t break it…

BUT - the free flow of ideas is a good thing, but rules do need to be tested, and if you fix one thing with a rule, it make break something else in another part of the game.

@Imperious:

no they destroy units. This is wrong. Its impossible to destroy an army from a Battleship, but the unit can be reduced in effectiveness and i feel this is a good model. And since the BB can effect units defending in a range of 1-4, while cruisers its 1-3. This gives the BB a new advantage as well.

I like this idea - I don’t know if you have played The Napoleonic Wars, Wellington, or Kutuzov by GMT games - but their combat system is one dice per unit - or three dice per ship - and each ‘6’ is a kill, and each ‘5’ is a disrupt - which means in the next round of combat those units don’t get to fire.

So, the idea that naval bombardment hits ‘supress’ enemy units is pretty cool - and something I’m going to house rule. I also like where you are going with artillery discussions… do you use them for a preliminary bombardment to ‘supress’ enemy untits or save them for combat to kill - knowing that killed units fire back, but supressed units (whilst they will survive) will not get to fire - and may be killed by other attacking units.

Have no idea how that will work without testing - but there have been some really interesting ideas thrown about on the board.

@runyan99:

I’m very suprised that AA50 does not include a rule for the Japanese/Russia non-aggression pact.

It does - but in a more realistic way.

Japan has to go after China and Asia, and the Germans have to go after Russia to get bonus IPCs…

So - by default Japan ignores Russia, and Russia is too busy defending against the Axis powers in the west.

Of course - as happened, Russia may chose to violate that ‘arrangement’ - and Japan can chance an East Wind Rain approach…

but then if Japan ignores the US, the US builds a mighty force to sweep Asia clean of Japan.

I think the new way is better - it gives more freedom to players, and I think playes should be free to follow unhistorical approaches - but that there should be ‘historical’ consequences for doing so.

@Rakeman:

I really like the idea of no using enemy ICs, I just see these loopholes.  Unless you plan on playing where ICs can not be built.

How about you can only place infantry in captured ICs… assuming that heavy weapons, like tanks need your home industry - or home ship yard facilities that take years to build.

Those half factories from THE WAR GAME are useful to denote this status… same with newly built ICs - they are only able to place infantry.

I think Italy has been done well - it’s a very hard country to bring into a game as frankly, they sucked compared to the Germans or Soviets.

From a wargame perspective, Italy is usually a liability than an opportunity - so it’s difficult to make it an ‘equal’ partner in a six player game of Axis and Allies.

My own view is that Larry has done a great job making them ‘fun’ to play… is their role in the game historic? No, I think they are somewhat overpowered compared to the other nations - but then, no one would want to play Italy under those circumstances, and you might as well include them with the Axis powers.

Given that Axis and Allies is first a game rather than a simulation, I think the inclusion of Italy has worked really well - and I am a sceptic who has been won over.

When I mod, I like to try and introduce the history at the higher levels - I took part in a simple wargame, as in the mechanics were about the same level as Axis and Allies - but there were nearly 100 players. (http://www.jimwallman.org.uk/tlw/index.htm) That way you simulate the reality of missinterpreted orders, bad briefings… I like to try and do this for Axis and Allies, and hope to get 12 people playing in the new year. This way you can have Japanese Army and Japanese Navy and make them argue over strategy. Ditto the US are split into ETO and PTO - that way you don’t get such a strong KGF, as the other player wants to follow KJF.

There is so much that can be done with Axis and Allies - it’s a reall cool base game in that respect, and Italy throws a whole new load of possibilities into the mix.

@Imperious:

The Germans or americans dont need a fighter bomber because they already have stuka and p-38, so its basically 4 plane molds and 6 mech molds.

That’s what I do with my Stukas and lightnings… although a P51 would be nice!  :-)

I guess we all have every single A&A sold to date? This gives us trucks, Stukas, Blockhouses - I’ve even been using my original AA subs as super subs, and used to use the old battleships as crusiers.

From a sales point of view, I would have thought things like Super Subs, Rockets and Jets (which are already in the rules) would have a wider appeal than some of the more specific units - if it comes down to priorities.

TT - how many units do you need to sell to break even? I wish I had that kind of cash to spare, otherwise it would be winging its direction to you right now!

Are you looking for some pre-orders from the community?

Did he give an estimate on costs per unit?

Now, perhaps someone can correct me if I’m wrong - but is the preliminary design done on computer, then transferred to a sculpt - before going into production?

Ok…

STAGE 1.

1. Who knows Larry Harris and can ask who did the sculpts for Axis and Allies and at what scale are they (tanks, infantry, ships, planes?)

2. Who knows Jeff Stein and can ask about his sculpts

3. Who is trustworthy enough - or has the capacity to take and hold credit card payments prior to production - i.e. the ‘legal’ side of this.

@Uncle_Joe:

So, is it intended that ICs can be hit by multiple Rockets each turn as in original AAR? If so, are there any safeguards that I’m overlooking on this to prevent it from being as badly unbalanced as it was in AAR?

I’m not so sure - if Germany has money to throw on research and AA guns, chances are they are already on track to winning the game…?

We run a house rule where there are three levels of tech for rockets.

Stage 1 is as current rules.
Stage 2 is rockets roll two dice
Stage 3 is rockets have three dice (this represents that long range one they were working on to hit new york)

We basically came up with lots of cool techs to try and get them to waste money on techs as Hilter did - or at least give the Germans this big temptation of war winning wonder weapons.

We also use a rule that tech tokens are 5 IPC - but you only keep those that you roll a ‘5’ for, all those that roll 1,2 or 3 are discaded - if you happen to roll two sixes, you keep one token and then roll for it again next turn.

So it brings back some of the possibility to waste your money on tech, but also I liked the tech carry over function.

@Imperious:

There is good community spirit here - Imperious Leader clearly has dedicated a lot of time and effort to his HHRHE and many of you have spent hours making modified figures, house rules, etc etc.

Thats AARHE and it was not me but 40 others

Well Eisenhower didn’t invade Normandy, seveal thousand Allied troops did - it just appeared that you pulled together all the contributions and make maps for people. I credit you as the ‘ring-leader’ so to speak - if it’s not you, then credit to whoever worked to co-ordinate the efforts of everyone.

Eitherway - I said it’s good community spirit - and sorry for the typo, obvious it’s not haxis and hallies!

Besides, you and 40 others is even better - you are already working together to make the game what people want. In a way this is closer to the actual wargame companies - I would imagine that the majority of people who buy Axis and Allies dont’ frequent these boards, and are quite content with their product, which means it will be hard to shift Avalon Hill very easily.

This is why I feel if we can club together and pool resources, we can get the things we want - as I just don’t see Avalon Hill rushing in to do this for us. Not becuase I think they are nasty, but because there is a credit crunch and luxery products like games always take a hit before other product lines in the market, and commercially they want a game that appeals to thousands not hundreds. Since the minatures for the game is niche at best - I don’t see it being viewed as a sensible decision on a commerical basis, so I expect it will be one or two unique units with each release. Like the block-house in D-Day, crusiers in Guadalcanal… which from a business point of view is a good idea, and has kep the Axis and Allies line going. Frankly I’m thrilled to get the AA50 version.

I only ever get to play each game 3 or 4 times by the time the next one comes out - simply because I play so many other games, so I probably get the least money’s worth out of us all here!

But if we all pool $50 or whatever - probably enough to get some good miniatures made. Better to pre-order up front, then no one person takes liability should everyone decide that they don’t want to buy units after they are made. I’ve ordered the WarGame pieces at $90… and that was just for the Tiger, Maus and Me262.

Hell, I’d do that again for B-29s, KV1s - etc.

Although I’m assuming your one line put down means you think this idea sucks!  :-D

It was just a suggestion based on what other wargames do and an attempt to compliment you on your work here with the community made rules and modifcations.

I thought the peices were fine - I had no problems with mine.

I fear, however, that NOT buying the game will make more of an impact than buying every single version that is released and then complaining. It sends a mixed message to Avalon Hill - and at teh end of the day it’s sales figures that matter.

The company wants to sell games, we all bought them… we bought the last ones, and they know we are going to buy the next ones.

If you are that unhappy send it back - that will get their attention!

If you the fans want peices - you the fans will need to come up with a way to solve it - and I suggest the method used by the other wargame companies.

I present the so called p500 system.

Invented by GMT games - www.gmtgames.com.

How does it work - they design a game, and then rather than produce it at great cost, they work out how much it will cost to get made and then put information up about the game and invite people to pre-order.

Once it gets 500 orders they advance to a more detailed design stage, knowing that they already have 500 orders. Once they have 750 orders they push the game into production. Those who pre-order get the game at a discount price. The number of pre-orders needed for something to go into design varies - and they always do a run of a few thousand and sell to games shops and what not, which then sell at full price.

The advantage is the game is EXACTLY what gamers want. If it’s not, then they gon’t get enough pre-orders and the game is not made. Prior to release, all sorts of rules, graphics and play test kits are handed out so that it is heavily refined and play tested prior to launch. These are games companies run by games for gamers…they are not ‘commercial’ in that sense, and many of those working in the companies do so on a part-time basis - it’s a profesional approach to a hobby.

So, since at the end of the day Avalon Hill staff work for Avlon Hill shareholders, and the MD will answer to his board and NOT you the customer, I suggest that the more enterprising amoungst you and go and get a quote for a line of plastic mins. You can have whatever you want… Panzer 4’s, Me262’s whatever.

Once you have a price for a run of how ever many is reasonable - you can put out a pre-order page. People pay whatever is a reasonale cost to cover production, shipping and the time of whoever did the initial work. Say 500 people cough up $50 in advance you have the money to buy the peices. If you want to run commerically - you make sure your initial pre-orders cover the costs of a double size run so that you have packs made that you can sell at a higher price (an incentive to pre-order) - and either bank the money from extra sales (hell, you did all the work why not) - OR buy lines of minatures that you want, but that didn’t get enough pre-orders perhaps… in effect the things everyone wants like B-29s cover the cost of the more diverse units that only a limited number want.

Only 10 people want B-29’s - not a problem, if after a certain amount of time you to fail to reach a minimum number of orders you refund them.

If, however, you can’t find enough interest in minatures - then perhaps that is the story here. There simply isn’t enough demand to justify making such a niche product… and I must admit, the 4 people in the UK with Axis and Allies that I know, are quite content with the product as it is and see it is a lite WW2 themed game for a fun evening and wouldn’t want to pay more for plastic minatures.

I would happily pay for more plastic minatures - I want jets, and heavy tanks for starters…

But back to the P500 system - most of the wargames I buy take 2-3 years to reach me… not all charge in advance, most only charge at the moment of placing the production order. So you order the game, 12 months later you get charged, 3 months later the game arrives. I assume it would be the same, you collect pledges to buy - and then the week before placing the order you ask people to cough up the cash… then you place the order. Bingo…

To be honest, complaining to a share-holder run company is going to achieve very little - especailly if you keep buying their products!!! It sends a mixed message - and besides, they want you to buy the game at the end of the day. Letters of complaint will achieve very little to be honest - unless we pay Larry Harris directly ourselves, he works for Avalon Hill and their shareholders - and if didn’t, then he wouldn’t be doing his job properly.

So the game is a compromise between three competing interests, gamers who want a  customised luxery product, shareholders who want a profitable game - and poor Mr Harris who has to strike a balance between both groups.  :-D

There is good community spirit here - Imperious Leader clearly has dedicated a lot of time and effort to his HHRHE and many of you have spent hours making modified figures, house rules, etc etc.

There are no copy right issues if you make some miniatures in the same colours and scale as the AA peices as long as they are not direct copies and you do not attempt to make commercial sales using their brand.

But I think you would be amazed at what you can get done if you organise yourselves

and you don’t have to argue about what minatures should be produced… if people want KV1s instead of JSIII’s - let’s see which gets the most pre-orders!

All we need to do now is find a sculptor, get quotes - hell, maybe even the person who made the latest A&A peices can leave a note on this board and give us his fee rate.

I regulary pre-order stuff at between $50 and $60 - so if someone was to come up with a bunch of AA mins to expand the AA50 version, I’d be there with my credit card.

@Bashir:

simplistic??? Honestly, I find A&A anything but simplistic…

Compared to an average wargame, Axis and Allies is very simplistic… but simplistic does not mean bad.

I play Axis and Allies more than any of my other wargames because of that very fact.

I can teach a new person Axis and Allies in an hour - I can’t teach them a wargame in an hour - hell, it took me months to learn GMT’s A World at War which is the antithesis of Axis and Allies.

@FieldMarshalGames:

I don’t want to get the community too excited about these yet as production will be late next year and the process will be much more involved than dice.

Too late… I’m excited at the prospect of new peices, jets for my jets, heavy bombers for my heavy bomber - B29 anyone?

For now it’s red chips under the bombers, fighters and tanks for the tech variants.  :-D

Look foward to seeing the complete set of national dice - you have a customer waiting for Itlay and China to get added to the basic set.

@Gallo:

1. There should be FOG (Fog Of War: you can’t see all the enemy units, just what is on the territories on your borders)

World at War by Matrix Games… Brings a level of complexity that you couldn’t have in a board-game, but can have in a computer game.

Axis and Allies is what it is… people’s wish lists are often already existing as other games.

@Imperious:

and sacrificed realism.

:-D  Which can be said for much of Axis and Allies!!!

But then that is where AARHE comes in - I’ve just been ploughing through your rules and really like them. I much prefer the idea of pre-battle air-fights like in GMT’s AWAW, so there is no longer the possibility to hid precious planes.

They constitute a nice bridge between more complex wargames and A&A.