On the Existence of "God"

[bossk]

@dIfrenT:

I have a problem with that too. It is too easy, but IMO your explanation is too easy as well. I believe that there is only ONE way to the ONE true God. That’s through Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. That cannot be defined as easy because it offends too many people.

It’s not the same God. Jesus Christ is God, and reincarnation is a wrong philosophy.

You seriously believe 4 billion people are going to hell becuase they are simple misguided in you mind? Even if some of them have had religous experiences that surpass yours and have convinced them that their religion is true. I could not believe in a god that would do that, it seems cold and heartless. A cold and heartless god is not really something I’d want to believe in.

[Guest]

I will start with the follow-ups, and the next will cover the original posting… and of course, most of my answers will be “bashing”, and few “approving”… but then: “Qui tacet, consentiere videtur” ;)

@cystic:

so F_alk,
do i waste my time with this one?

You shouldn’t have done it :)…

@cystic:

Deists have considerable proving according to a seemingly arbitrary human logic the existance of God, Atheists are typically unable to prove their side.

You mix up the sides again, CC ;) :)…… It’s the other way round…
as you said in a later post as well ;)

Christians claim to have actually experienced God. We believe because of a life-changing event spiritually that we are unable to prove.
Atheists have had no such event - which might well be their platform for their argument (i.e. I have not experienced God therefore God does not exist).

Very well said.

@dIfrenT:

“If we’re wrong, we lose nothing. If you’re wrong, you lose everything.” If I’m wrong, I still have no afterlife. If you’re wrong, you spend eternity in Hell."

This is what i would call “religion for wimps” :) Even then: If you are wrong, you spend your next 15 lifes as some invertebrate, while i will be in Nirvana by then ;)…

How could it be the same God, if christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and Hindus believe in reincarnation?

It’s not the same God. Jesus Christ is God, and reincarnation is a wrong philosophy.

Funny that you don’t even allow it the status of a religion.
Did all the people before JC, or before Abraham go to hell? Do all christians go to hell because they don’t follow the upgrade "Monotheism V3.1 “Islam” "?

From a scientific viewpoint, you can do neither. You can’t taste, touch, see, smell, or hear either the chemicals or God (these days anyway b/c that comes through the Bible).

I can taste, smell, see and feel a lot of chemicals… Not all though, but i can build devices that can “feel” those where my own sensory equipment is insufficient.
The definition of taste and smell is directly related to chemicals (hence “aromatic groups”).

@cystic:

i can’t believe i’m in a position of wishing FinsterniS was about for a “rational” discussion on this.

:) :D wooohoo …. If he ever reads this, he will either die of a heart attack or be very pleased … (means: good one, and i agree totally with you)…

@bossk:

You seriously believe 4 billion people are going to hell becuase they are simple misguided in you mind? … A cold and heartless god is not really something I’d want to believe in.

Well said, bossk.

… and now for the original…

[Guest]

Here we go.

@Janus:

(skipped the first very confused parapgraph)

The very thought that there could be one omnipotent creature is absurd.

Even though i agree on that, i disagree on your way there. A very simple question would be:
“Can an omnipontent being create a stone that is too heavy for it too lift?”
or something like that:
Can an omnipotent being bring itself into a position where it is not omnipotent anymore?
This looks like a very strong paradox to me.

First, the Big Bang (prevailing theory about the creation of the Universe) created all that is, and ever was.

Using the term “creation” leads to believing there is an external cause.
“Origin” is neutral in that sense and much more appropriate in a discussion about it.

Our galaxy and everything in it, along with all other cosmic entities. Perhaps “God” is no more than some entity created by the Big Bang, …
Second, “God” is a being more advanced than ourselves in some way,

This is only one theory, and a very weak theory. Any Deist will say that god (being the uncaused cause, the creator of the universe) will of course be outside the universe.

I doubt highly that anything could just “be”. that is to say, how could there be one omnipotent being that always was, always will be, and that created everything?

Using the concepts of past, present and future outside the space-time is not valid, or at least leads inevitably to misunderstandings when communicating with beings inside that continuum.

and if it created everything, what was there before it created everything? Was it just there?

A nice analog for this misuse of “time”:
If i ask you “When did you stop to beat your wife?”…… What is your answer? If you have never beaten her, it must be “Never”.
Past, present and future only have a meaning in our space-time-continuum. There is no “before the Big-Bang”, there is no “before in our terms” once you leave the space-time.
SO, the only logical answer is "it ‘was/is/will be’ just ‘there’ ".

These are some pretty deep questions mind you, I dont expect any real answers, I am simply postulating questions.

Actually, i don’t think they are too deep.

Mind you, the Big Bang theory postulates a singulartity being present before existence as well,

No, no, no.
before again. And the singularity is one idea for the BigBang, but it seems it is out-dated.

but the idea of energy existing before existence is more agreeable to me than some tangible, omnipotent being.

Again “before”. You do not understand the theories you use. And as well, a new discussion has started in the very early 90s about the energy coming from the vacuum-mode-fluctuations (in physical terms), which can inflate and show pretty much the behavior that we “expect” of the early universe. The stability can be explained by the asymmetry in nature (in the decay channels of elementary particles).

(cutting a very long paragraph about christianity, with equating “monotheism” to “christianity”…… Read your Zoroaster, Echnaton, and of course Abraham and Mohammed.)

What about polytheistic believers? Does that include them? What about theories of the afterlife? Each religion has its own belief about life (or lackthereof) after death, be it a purgatory-esque existence, heaven, hell, reincarnation, etc. How could it be the same God, if christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and Hindus believe in reincarnation?

Kind of a valid question, but again:
How can you question the existance of the biblical god, when you assume all other gods to be lesser? You seem to be stuck in your christian socialisation here.
A more interesting point to ask would be:
How comes that so many things in christianity seem to be “plagiates”?
Look at:
http://www.atheist-community.org/mithra.htm
(and did you know that the Birth of Osiris was announced by a star and three wise men? and that bread-sacrifices were common in that cult? And that apart from Mithra also the celtic god Cuchulain was born by a virgin, just like Adonis, whose virgin mom is called "Myrrha)

Or, when did Jahwe/God/Allah decide to be a single god, and not the moon-god (or better, goddess Al-lat), or when did Jahwe decide not to be married anymore to Aschera, why is Baal (a god of earth) suddenly evil (even though he fights Jam (the sea) and Mot (the death), to keep his land and keep is flourishing (similar role as Baldur in the nordic myths)? When did Jahwe become more important than El, the ancient canaanite god of creation? Why is God suddenly a trinity, in contrast to the other two?

These (with the above paradox) to me look like more “valid” questions to ask christianity as church and belief.

[Yanny]

That’s not called agnostic Yanny, though you may in fact be Agnostic. Agnosticism (not sure if that is what its called) is basically the religion for wimps. Its the best of both worlds. Its is essentially the atheists that are too scared to admit it, or are worried about the small, minute, miniscule chance that there is a God, and that by not believing, they might piss him off. It just means that you do not believe in, or not believe in God.

Because I admit there might be a higher being up there? Science cannot prove a lot of things. For example, the most basic rule of modern science, something cannot come from nothing. Well where did the first something come from?

Like you said Deviant:scripter, I cannot disprove God, for a number of reasons. not least among them, even if I had some irrefutable proof with which to disprove the existence of God (which I do not) I could not convince almost any church goers, as belief would over ride anything i could provide.

A God is not something, by the nature of it, which can be proved. I believe in Evolution and science in general. In fact, you should read my comments in the many evolution threads.

I am not arogant enough, like you and any anyone who insists a God exists, to claim I am right. I simply don’t know, and neither do you.

[Janus]

Wow. I have much to reply too, so let me say right now, I am almost surely going to forget to adress something I thought of while reviewing the posts. That said, let’s begin.

First, I would like to commend you Falk, very well argued, you provided excellent points and counter points.

Yanny Said

For example, the most basic rule of modern science, something cannot come from nothing. Well where did the first something come from?

Indeed, where did the first something come from? I have already posed the very same question. God is certainly something, perhaps albeit something on another plane of existence, so where did God come from?

difernT said:

One could reverse the question and ask you: “How can anyone be so foolish as to not believe in a divine being?” To use what I consider a somewhat weak statement that i haven’t found a better way of saying: “If we’re wrong, we lose nothing. If you’re wrong, you lose everything.” If I’m wrong, I still have no afterlife. If you’re wrong, you spend eternity in Hell.

I dont think you should be arguing on the existence of God if you believe in God simply as a way of covering yourself on the chance he exists. unless you are just playing devil’s advocate. in which case, that argument is implying that i should believe in god just to cover my ass.

I forget at this point who said it, and I have no more time left to look through the posts to find who said they would prefer I use quotes then just “making stuff up” as they put it, but i will concede, this comes from Lewis Black, and although it was extremely funny when performed by him, I think on a base level, it contains a cogent argument for atheism.
(this is not exact, ive been unable to find the actual quote from his standup routine) “I have proof that there is no god, really. Do you want to know what it is? I was in Houston, and I came across a Starbucks. And I looked, and right across from that starbucks, in the same building as that starbucks, there was a starbucks. I looked back and forth, thinking the sun was playing tricks on my eyes, how could a starbucks be right across from another starbucks? who needs that much coffee? I look up at the sky, and think there cannot be a just, decent god, that would allow a starbucks, to be right across from ANOTHER FREAKING STARBUCKS!!!” or something like that :)

[Yanny]

First off, love Lewis Black. One of the most entertaining comedians on TV.

deed, where did the first something come from? I have already posed the very same question. God is certainly something, perhaps albeit something on another plane of existence, so where did God come from?

I don’t know. No one does. I don’t know if a God doesn’t exist. I didn’t know I had an extra 50$ in my wallet yesterday either. It was there.

Personally, I don’t care about proof. If there is a God, then there is. If not, well I hope to live a long life anyway.

[Jazz]

Well I finally found something more annoying that the Mormons and Jehova Witness’ (sp?) in my town trying to get me to join thier religion, and that is Janus trying to convince me that there is no religion.

And Janus, if you truly wanted to avoid insulting people, I like to think you could have used a better opening line than.

While your belief in God makes you completely wrong, you have a right to wallow in your own ignorance.

[Janus]

ok jazz, first, get it right. i am not arguing that there is no religion, that is absurd, there clearly is religion, look around. i am arguing against the existence of god, something related, but distinct.
second, my opening line was called a joke, maybe you didnt find it funny, but dont get bent out of shape about it.
third, if you find my thread annoying, dont read it. nobody forced you to read it, so dont.
finally, i am not looking for proof on the existence of god, one way or the other. like many other posters on this thread have said, proof is all but impossible to provide. i am simply challenging the existence of a diving being, in a forum for open discussion.

[Janus]

oh, and i forgot to mention, it seems that the poll has slipped in favor of belief in god, and i must say, NOOOOO!!!

[Jazz]

Janus, my opening line was called a joke, maybe you didnt find it funny, but dont get bent out of shape about it.

[dIfrenT]

ok jazz, first, get it right. i am not arguing that there is no religion, that is absurd, there clearly is religion, look around. i am arguing against the existence of god, something related, but distinct.
second, my opening line was called a joke, maybe you didnt find it funny, but dont get bent out of shape about it.
third, if you find my thread annoying, dont read it. nobody forced you to read it, so dont.
finally, i am not looking for proof on the existence of god, one way or the other. like many other posters on this thread have said, proof is all but impossible to provide. i am simply challenging the existence of a diving being, in a forum for open discussion.

Oooh, are we getting just a little bit defensive here? :) :wink:

difernT said: Quote:
One could reverse the question and ask you: “How can anyone be so foolish as to not believe in a divine being?” To use what I consider a somewhat weak statement that i haven’t found a better way of saying: “If we’re wrong, we lose nothing. If you’re wrong, you lose everything.” If I’m wrong, I still have no afterlife. If you’re wrong, you spend eternity in Hell.

I dont think you should be arguing on the existence of God if you believe in God simply as a way of covering yourself on the chance he exists. unless you are just playing devil’s advocate. in which case, that argument is implying that i should believe in god just to cover my a**.

if you noticed i called it a “weak statement.” and that’s why i called it weak. God isn’t a way to just cover your behind. Generally speaking, people realize that the things they do wrong are the reason they are condemned to Hell. I think that it’s generally known that life is made up of opportunities and the choices/decisions that go with them. If someone goes to Hell it’s because they choose not to believe what Christ did. They choose to go to Hell.

dIfrenT wrote:
“If we’re wrong, we lose nothing. If you’re wrong, you lose everything.” If I’m wrong, I still have no afterlife. If you’re wrong, you spend eternity in Hell."

This is what i would call “religion for wimps” Even then: If you are wrong, you spend your next 15 lifes as some invertebrate, while i will be in Nirvana by then …

Really? I see it the opposite way. I don’t think that people who willingly die for their faith are wimps. It’s just the opposite. And, I realize that my knowledge is simplistic, but isn’t karma where good actions make good karma and vice versa? I haven’t grasped the more complicated side. In that case, if as a Christian, my focus is pleasing God by doing the right (or good) thing, I have good karma and move up in the cycle of samsara. However, as I said, Christianity shouldn’t be a way to cover your butt. I really believe that Christ died to pay for my sins.

Funny that you don’t even allow it the status of a religion.
Did all the people before JC, or before Abraham go to hell? Do all christians go to hell because they don’t follow the upgrade "Monotheism V3.1 “Islam” "?

Call it what you want. Religion is a system of works. Since a philosophy is a “system of values adopted by an individual, group, etc.” (New International Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary of the English Language) or “the general laws that furnish the rational explanation of anything” (same Dictionary) Hinduism could be considered either one. Semantics.

Abrahams works were “counted unto him for righteousness.” Before Christ’s death I’m sure you’ve figured out that the way to Heaven was based on works - following God’s mandates on sacrifices and stuff. After Christ, it’s based on faith in the fact the He died on the cross, was buried, and resurrected three days later. He ascended into Heaven to sit at the Father’s right hand.

You seriously believe 4 billion people are going to hell becuase they are simple misguided in you mind? Even if some of them have had religous experiences that surpass yours and have convinced them that their religion is true. I could not believe in a god that would do that, it seems cold and heartless. A cold and heartless god is not really something I’d want to believe in.

Yes. You can be convinced the earth is flat until you see satellite pictures. Even then you could call it a fabrication. And surely you don’t believe that you can always have it the way you want. Even I’m not naive enough to believe that.

As much as I would like to elaborate, I need to be on my way to work.

[Janus]

touche Jazz

[Janus]

im not that arrogant difrenT, if you show me proof god exists, ill gladly renounce everything ive ever said against it. since i know you cant however, i will continue to say he does not exist, as i know it to be so.

[cystic crypt]

@Janus:

im not that arrogant difrenT, if you show me proof god exists, ill gladly renounce everything ive ever said against it. since i know you cant however, i will continue to say he does not exist, as i know it to be so.

so you know it to be so?
and how is this?
how was this revealled to you? Did a scientist tell you? Or your mother perhaps? Or is this just a feeling that you do or don’t have?

[Jazz]

Janus, that too was a joke. Notice how i used almost the exact text that you used in the previous post?

[Guest]

@Yanny:

Because I admit there might be a higher being up there? Science cannot prove a lot of things. For example, the most basic rule of modern science, something cannot come from nothing. Well where did the first something come from?

Well, not really.
Look at the Kasimir effect: If you put two (very good) mirrors (or metal plates) close to each other, in a vaccuum (!), they will feel an attracting force to each other. Even thouhg, their is “nothing” between them and “nothing” around them.
(The solution for this is pretty: the 2 “nothings” are different. Placing these mirrors exludes some of the so-called vaccuum modes (which is, no photon with a wavelength longer than twice the distance between the mirrors can exist between those mirrors). Thus, there are more vaccuum modes possible in the “outside” than in the “inside”. The inevitable fluctuations in these modes now result in the “outside” having a higher “vaccum-pressure” than the “inside”, and thus a force).

@dIfrenT:

… people realize that the things they do wrong are the reason they are condemned to Hell. I think that it’s generally known that life is made up of opportunities and the choices/decisions that go with them. If someone goes to Hell it’s because they choose not to believe what Christ did. They choose to go to Hell.

In the first sentence it is the actions of people that condemn them to hell, later on you specify that to one action, which is not believing in christ.
More to that will follow.

… I don’t think that people who willingly die for their faith are wimps. It’s just the opposite. And, I realize that my knowledge is simplistic, but isn’t karma where good actions make good karma and vice versa? I haven’t grasped the more complicated side. In that case, if as a Christian, my focus is pleasing God by doing the right (or good) thing, I have good karma and move up in the cycle of samsara.

Again, you equate the actions of “doing good and pleasing god” with “going to heaven” (at least implicitly you do so).
And what has this “die willingly” to do with christianity? I don’t think that all christians are martyrs, or that you need to be a martyr for being a christian.

… Religion is a system of works. Since a philosophy is a “system of values adopted by an individual, group, etc.” (New International Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary of the English Language) or “the general laws that furnish the rational explanation of anything” (same Dictionary) Hinduism could be considered either one. Semantics.

Call it semantics, then let me call it faith-arrogance ;).
Why does Christianity qualify as a religion, whereas Hinduism doesn’t?
(And i don’t really get what you mean by “system of works”)

Abrahams works were “counted unto him for righteousness.” Before Christ’s death I’m sure you’ve figured out that the way to Heaven was based on works - following God’s mandates on sacrifices and stuff. After Christ, it’s based on faith in the fact the He died on the cross, was buried, and resurrected three days later. He ascended into Heaven to sit at the Father’s right hand.

So, at one stage god changed the qualifiers for entry-to-heaven? And notice again that you say that for christianity it is only a question of believing and not action. From what i know, there are some differences in the christian churches wether that is true or not, depending on wether you are catholic, or calvinist for example, that’s AFAIR though i could be wrong there.

Just as it has been mentioned on a different thread: I could do whatever evil deeds that i want, as long as i say and believe that JC died for my sins, i am saved? I could do as much good as i want, and live after the philosophy that JC founded: if i don’t believe that he was the son of god i would go to hell?
Is that really what you believe? Then why does it seem to me that you mixed up this difference between action and believe to something like “you must believe in JC and act to please god to go to heaven”?

[Field Marshal]

I’m detecting a little “hate-Atheism” from the author of this post. Clearly we all agree that the existence of any diety is beyond proof or disproof if you will. As stated earlier, all we have is our personal beliefs and/or opinions in which to conduct this discussion. It seems rather out of bounds to declare any belief system is invalid or wrong. A rather arrogant and ignorant statement. Our free societies are lucky to have religious freedoms. That includes (like it or not) us atheists. The right to believe or not without pressures from government or other groups. Places like this site where one can openly discuss it.

Please tell us Janus WHY you feel as you do. I hope it’s not because the malls are too crowded in December. It seems from your original post you need to brush up on pre-civilization human history if you want to know where beliefs in gods and the start of religion originates from. Our current groups are merely present day forms of our ancestors first take on the world and cosmos.

As an atheist I find myself defending the deists on this thread. That’s the problem with atheist’s - no central belief system. All have personal interpretations on even the simple dictionary definition of the word.

So what do you say Janus, tell us your thoughts…

[Janus]

i know jazz, thus the touche.

[DeviantScripter]

@Janus:

…as i know it to be so.

You know jack crap!

At least the ones who do believe in God have the humbleness to admit that they can’t be sure he’s out there, but it’s safer to side with believing in a God than not.

[Janus]

getting a little personal deviant:scripter?

You know jack crap!

perhaps my statement seemed a bit arrogant, if so, then i apologize. by “i know it to be so” i mean in a way like when you know somebody is lying to you in some way, but cant prove it, or you know someone has done something wrong, but cannot prove it. that is how i know that god does not exist. feel free to challenge it, as i certainly challenge your belief in the existence of god, but i will know for myself that god is not real.

but it’s safer to side with believing in a God than not.

this is one of the things that annoy me the most about people who believe in god. by this statement, it is implied that many of these people believe in god only to be safe in the unlikely event that god exists. that is pathetic. if your going to believe in god, i will challenge your belief, but if you truly believe in him, i will at least respect your stance (though i know it to be erroneous). but i cant respect someone who believes in god, just to cover their ass. a belief one way or the other should be something you truly hold to be so, not something to make sure your safe