Interesting story Garg, interesting story.
And thanks Marc for the background info. It’s easy to forget/overlook things like that.
Islaam really isn't as violent as you think
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The India/Pakistan conflict is a similar situation but much more extreme. Yet the Media barely even mentions it unless a war is about to break out.
Islaamic provinces are the center of conflict for 2 reasons right now. 1) They were hit hardest by Imperialism and 2) The Middle East has oil.
Keep in mind there were thousands of conflicts where Christianity was the motivation in Dark-Middle age europe.
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They want a national health care system for goodness sake! THey are resposible for European style entitlements!
Well from your point of view, they are probably center-left, but from mine they’re not. I doupt the right in France can compare to your “left”, our right is far more leftish :)
And btw i does not understand your signature, you have one common rebuttal made by leftish people (by bossk), and a quote of Einstein… i find that a little strange as i know you are catholic and you said yourself communism is bad. Sarcasm ?
Some more irony for you - Einstein wasn’t Christian, he was Jewish and almost became the first President of Israel. Before his death he had requested that the world treat Israel fairly.
And I agree with Yanny about what he said about Christianity. According to what I’ve read in the New Testament Jesus said to turn the other cheek when someone slaps you, and the Christians really did that during the crusades. Had they just fought the Muslims in a war, I could understand that a war broke out and they had to defend themselves from death, but killing pagans and Jews along the way, that’s very non-violent.
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why EG, are you being sarcastic?
weird. -
@cystic:
why EG, are you being sarcastic?
weird.It’s true anyway, pagan were killed by christians
Some more irony for you - Einstein wasn’t Christian, he was Jewish and almost became the first President of Israel.
He was of Jewish blood but not of religion my friend. Anyway, everyone want him on his side but the fact is; he was’nt a Theist, and he was’nt an Atheist; he was a Pantheist, à la Spinoza. No link with christianism, judaism, islamism.
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Emu, you conviently leave out something. The Christian murderers also killed millions of Muslims whom they were fighting in an offensive war of conquest. Christians slaughtered whole cities of people in the name of their God. Pagans too were killed if they refused to convert. Jews were forced into Exile (I believe, memory is unclear).
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and for Islam you could add continued persecution of Christians around the world, including physicians involved in humanitarian missions.
but this is all so pointless. I mean, we could go on ad nauseum and point the fingers at atheists (China, Russia, Cuba, North Korea, etc.) - the family of my grandparents were executed/murdered/exiled/raped by communists?
Big deal.It’s amazing how much time, effort, energy and verbage is wasted pointing out the evils committed by people who claim to be acting as agents for one religion/cause/ideology or another.
This thread began nobly enough. Looking for the beauty in another culture, religion, people - whatever. Instead it’s been twisted to “look how evil these people act” rather than “look at the beauty in these passages”/ideals/philosophies, while pontificating on dead philosophies.
Pretty useless. So far none of my Arabic colleagues/mentors/teachers/helpers have tried to kill me lately, but have acted beautifully towards me, helping me understand the art and science of my profession better. The same has been true of many Christian and Jewish colleagues as well. -
I never said it was an argument against Christianism or Theism, it’s just an argument against dogma, i never said atheit were clean. you should try to avoid that as much as everyone else.
And there is a difference between killing people because of a belief, and killing becuase of something else while you hold a belief. For exemple in the inquisition they kill because of their religion (even if it’s not a good interpretation), and some atheist destroy temple because of their belief in atheism (as much a bad interpretation). But Hitler did not kill because of christianism, and stalin did’nt kill because of atheism, they simply hold these belief (even if it’s not clear in the two case).
but this is all so pointless.
This is’nt false but i think Yanny just want to show that the common claim that islam is violent is historicly a non-sence, at least it’s not more than other religion base of the god of Abraham.
it’s amazing how much time, effort, energy and verbage is wasted pointing out the evils committed by people who claim to be acting as agents for one religion/cause/ideology or another.
I often, and you cannot blame me for that, said it was’nt an argument.
The same has been true of many Christian and Jewish colleagues as well.
You have no Atheist, secular Humanist in Canada ?
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@F_alk:
conversion of non-jews/christians/zoroastrians.
Who was not one of these three?
He’s right. In medieval times, you were either Jewish, Christian or Muslim
or not in Europe…. which faith had the Mongols before they converted to Islam?
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This is’nt false but i think Yanny just want to show that the common claim that islam is violent is historicly a non-sence, at least it’s not more than other religion base of the god of Abraham.
Exactly. I am not saying Islaam isn’t violent. I am saying all the religions of the book are equally guilty. I just get pissed when people spread lies about one particular religion because of current events.
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Emu, you conviently leave out something. The Christian murderers also killed millions of Muslims whom they were fighting in an offensive war of conquest. Christians slaughtered whole cities of people in the name of their God. Pagans too were killed if they refused to convert. Jews were forced into Exile (I believe, memory is unclear).
No Yanny they were burned at the stake usually but sometimes they were exiled or forced to convert. For the most part, they were executed.
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This is still amazing.
I could declare myself a FinsterniSian, a Yannyan, or an Emugodian for whatever reason i wanted (possibly because of greed, misplaced political acumen, whatever), go about committing evil acts of violence to the point where FS, Y, and EG would cry in disbelief and sadness, and claim to do them in the names of FS, Y and EG still. Although these acts would be against secular humanism, or Jewish law and custom, or against nature itself, my performing these acts would still smear what FS, Y, and EG stand for, irrespective of their own teachings and beliefs.
Still, what is the point?
The evils done by people proclaiming themselves to be Christians (yes, there’s that word again FS) i believe are doubly horrific as they are the exact opposite to the beliefs that they claim to espouse. Jesus said that to do good things for your friends and to lend money to those that will pay you back say nothing good about you, but to do good for your “enemies” and lend to those you don’t expect money back from anyway are ideas critical to the practice of Christianity. So naturally when people claim to be Christians yet do worse than the opposite of what is instructed of them, then this somehow blackens the eye of Christianity?
(obviously this bugs me a little bit)
And FS - AFAIK one tenet of communism is atheism which helped the communists in their attempted extermination of my people - not saying all communists are evil, but their dogma did not do a whole lot for us in Russia. Also although there are atheists and secular humanists in Canada, my point was that a person did not have to be one in order to practice love. Furthermore, i have not had much discussion with regards to any of humanistic beliefs of my atheist preceptors. -
CC, heres the problem. The Facist hold that Christianity (and a lot of other Monotheist religions, including Islaam and Judaism) is a compelling force that can be used to control the masses. It has been used hundreds of times in history to kill millions. The problem not lies with the religion, but with the ignorant (no offense intended) blind-faith followers of the religion who truely believe they are working for God.
The Crusaders believed they were doing the right thing. Thats where the problem stems from.
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yeah Yanny, but this is true of politics too . . .
look at George Bush . . . :D -
@cystic:
This is still amazing.
I could declare myself a FinsterniSian, a Yannyan, or an Emugodian for whatever reason i wanted (possibly because of greed, misplaced political acumen, whatever), go about committing evil acts of violence to the point where FS, Y, and EG would cry in disbelief and sadness, and claim to do them in the names of FS, Y and EG still. Although these acts would be against secular humanism, or Jewish law and custom, or against nature itself, my performing these acts would still smear what FS, Y, and EG stand for, irrespective of their own teachings and beliefs.
Still, what is the point?Well i totally agree. Like i said the point was just to show islam is’nt “evil” to use your expression and that it’s not more violent than other religion. Also history can be a great lesson, mainly against fanatism, because the real enemy it’s not communism, islamism, christiam, or atheism it’s fanatism, we rarely did something great with fanatic robots, but we did with free mind.
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, you have one common rebuttal made by leftish people (by bossk),
I am mocking the assertion that just because something has always failed miserably and caused great pain and continues to cause great pain, that it is still a promising system.
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First, Yanny the Crusaders did not kill millions, that would invovle the systymatic wiping out of most of the population of SYRIa-PAlestine-Eqypt.
Second, Yanny, often people used Christianity as an excuse to kill, but the Church established the Truce of GOd and the Peace of God, because though they couldn’t stop people from killing each other, the church could at least slow them down by declaring certain days and places free from Conflict.
Third, about the Inquisition, though the Church is obviously ashamed, it was not as bad as you think. Prisoners would pretend to be heretics in order to go infront of the inquisition instead of the regular courts, and because the inquisition decided that charges of witch craft were meaningless, saving Spain from the turmoil which wracked the rest of Europe, killing 100,000 in France alone. The inquisition killed a few thousand.
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Second, Yanny, often people used Christianity as an excuse to kill, but the Church established the Truce of GOd and the Peace of God, because though they couldn’t stop people from killing each other, the church could at least slow them down by declaring certain days and places free from Conflict.
I think the reason for that is that the church simply saw there profits melting. They were based in these lands, and if there was a lot of fighting there, with moving armies…. these armies needed food, which they surely did not take with them, but plundering from anywhere they passed.
I don’t think that the church did invent these things for peaces sake, but for their own safeties and profits sake. -
When I say the Spanish Inquisition, I mean the Witch-Heretic craze which swept throughout Europe. The Spanish Inquisition was part of that, and is just my name for the whole Europe-wide event.
The Crusaders, for the most part, killed, captured, or looted every person in every town they came across. Women, Children, and Prisoners of war were all killed if captured so they would not slow down the Crusade,
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When I say the Spanish Inquisition, I mean the Witch-Heretic craze which swept throughout Europe. The Spanish Inquisition was part of that, and is just my name for the whole Europe-wide event.
The Crusaders, for the most part, killed, captured, or looted every person in every town they came across. Women, Children, and Prisoners of war were all killed if captured so they would not slow down the Crusade,
ahhh . . . see how efficient the Crusade was? Like Jesus alwasy said - if you’re going to kill people, do it efficiently.
The middle ages church was a political force that was drivne by similar elements that drives other people and political leaders. The people who went along with the church did so because they could not read, many of them, and because the bible was only printed in Latin until the time of Tyndale et al. Because of this shroud of secrecy and the power inherent to the money commanded by the “Church” it acted more like a monarchy than a Christian organization. -
Well CC, I feel its the Church thats the problem, not the Religion. The reason Christianity (Catholics in particular) have commited worse attrocities than the other religions is because of it’s centralized form of control.
People should be worshipping from home, with their families. Do we really need Priests endlessly telling us what to do? Do we need to go to Church to hear a Priest rant on about something half the people in the audience don’t listen to anyway?
In my opinion, no Christian should feel the need to go to Church every Sunday. Religion should be on the inside, between oneself and his/her faith. When it is on the outside, thats when problems arise.
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