HI @SS-GEN,
Discussing Submarine combat values, here is a picture about Attacking 3 Defending 2 Cost 5:

Compared to Submarine A5 D2 Cost 7:

With Sub A3 D2 C5, you have more room to increase attacking value with various bonus without being too near of Heavy Cruiser @7 firepower.

Also, from Germany POV, if you need to attack an Allied fleet, it becomes easier to sacrifice Subs while keeping aircraft at 8 IPCs.

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Yes attacking and defending planes can retreat after 1 round of combat or any round after1.

What did you observe about this rule during play?
Does defending player use it or forget to use it?

Is it a 1 move retreat for defender?

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

There is some option changes out there yet.

DD C6 A3 1.00
AC C12 D4 .87
N Fig C8 D5 .94
Dive C8 D5 .94 = 2.75
C28 D14 = 2.75 .91
3 DD C18 A9 = 3.00 1.00
Good chance land AAA gun goes to D@3. Depends on if there’s
Spam plane buys. Definetly be easier if all planes C8 and AD@5.
The issue in game is with planes is from what I’ve seen in over 80 games at least
are is one side always is either to weak or to strong because its land planes mostly
in Europe and N planes in Pacific and of course extra land figs from Japan.

Remember BB CR DD each if roll is a 1 get a
bonus AA plane kill same time.

About Aircraft issues, did you try somekind of air retreat for attacker and defender?

Or allowing maybe 2 aircraft to land on a just conquered TTy assuming none can be part of this if only 1 move left.

@SS-GEN

Personally, I like this new Sub: C7 A@5 D@2 if roll is a 1 pick target.

I see the interest of these 4 being similar:
Now its easier for guys & new where 4 planes are now AD@5. Fig, N. Fig, Tac & Dive.

Personally, if all aircraft go at Cost 8, I like this variation: bombers being A5 D4 while Fighters being A4 D5.
Bombers being better on offense, Fighters better in defense (kind of air interdiction).

This would definitely be my choice:
DD C6 A3 1.00
AC C12 D4 .87
N Fig C8 D5 .94
Dive C8 D5 .94 = 2.75
C28 D14 = 2.75 .91
3 DD C18 A9 = 3.00 1.00

But, can Carrier still be OK with @4 vs aircraft?

If a lot of Axis aircraft go into Europe, my guess is that AAA must be at Cost 4.
You may try to make them more affordable and efficient to help USSR.
Maybe, @2 against up to 4 aircraft each round, but 3 IPCs, only.
I don’t remember how it works and values in your game.

Also, a different mechanic maybe use to help defend against many attacking aircrafts:
In land combat, a “1” roll can be applied to AAA instead of a precious aircraft.
So, Fg or TcB attacking rolling “1” allowed defender to pick AAA unit as the critical hit effect.
But if “2” was rolled for attacking Fg then defender must hit his aircraft.

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Well looks like we’re going with next game Carriers cost 12 and figs and n figs AD@5 and if roll is a 2 or less kill a bonus DF plane.
Tac / Dive will stay AD@5 if roll is a 3 or less pick target

It keeps a randomized factor about picking target or not.
On paper, TcB/DvB A6D6 C10 with “3” or less pick target seems to me a better fit in your roster cost structure.
Not as high as Cruiser A7 C9, but better than Sub A5 C7. Also, making it @6 make for a better trophy when rolling a “1”.

But, since Carrier is lowered to 12 IPC and NFg A5D5 C8, a fully loaded CV Fg+DvB bring more punch aboard for the price.

Also, you also have a lots of in-game infos feedbacks about TcB, DvB killing ratio and balance in naval or land combat to count on. Did you make AAA similar to Carrier but on land?

What is the main difference between TcB vs DvB? Range?

You may consider giving +1 bonus damage to TcB vs DvB, land based can lift more payloads at least…

Besides, are you going to see Midway movie?

@SS-GEN
Hi SS,
Reducing naval Fg cost within your roster seems less interesting because C6 for DD, C7 for Sub.
If you need to keep A4 D4 M4-5 C8 for Naval, maybe make the “1” bonus on offense while, on defense, “2” or less pick an enemy’s aircraft in addition.

Maybe land based Fg can be more impressive in defense?
Fighter A4 D5 M5-6 C8, “1” on offense, “2” or less on defense.

If you feel “1” is too low, rise the critical to Attack “2” or less; Defense “3” or less for both Fg types.

Also, 2 hits Carrier cost can hardly go lower 12 IPCs, because DD fodder is 6 IPCs for 1 hit.

If keeping Carrier Defense 3 against aircraft only, it is another reason to use “3” or less on defense to get 1 hit bonus on aircraft with Fighter.

It becomes a small way to upgrade the defense feature of Full Carrier without adding a better number like considering rising Carrier to Defense 4.

About the multiplier number for 2 hits unit, it is 2.62.
2.5 can be a good approximation with brain only calculator.

To get the strength of Full Carrier, you add up the ratio and divide by 3 units.
If CV on Defense is 0.70, 2 Fg 1.00 each, sum: 2.7 / by 3 = 0.90 avg.
Since DD, Cruiser and BB are at 1.00 or above for both offense and defense, you can compare the numbers from full Carriers.

Cheers,

@SS-GEN
Hi SS,
all the numbers should be halved. There is probably something wrong with the file. It seems like using “6-sided dice” instead of “12-sided dice” which might explain why you got double values.

Here is mine:

Do you see how low on defense a Full Carrier is (0.73, 0,62 or 0,78) compared to Destroyer (1.00). In G40, DD (0.75) was about the same strength as 2 Fgs and Carrier C16 (0.71) on defense.

I see the relevance of keeping Fighter regular roll with a special DF “2” or less.
What about Naval Fighter C8 A4 D5, with DF “2”?
Dive Bombers C10, A5 D5, “1” to hit plane, pick target, ground or naval.

Along with Carrier A0 D3 C12, 2 hits you get a strength of 0.93 (2 nFgs), 0.68 (2 DvBs) or 0.91 (nFg+DvB)
Slightly below Destroyer and Cruiser, as you can read above.

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Well for 2 icps more the Tac Dive getting to pick target 3 or less is worth the extra cost for what I’ve seen in games.
I’ll have to look at this again. Was gonna drop it to AD@4 and can pick target.
AD@5 and can pick target may be to strong. I’ll check it out still.
As for the secondary hits its getting to confusion now and besides your saying Figs get a normal AD@4 naval kill plus if roll is a @2 plane kill and instead you want the @2 to go against a ship so the ships take 2 hits and nothing against the planes ? Then you have more planes again and thats not the idea if I have this right.

As far as carriers getting a ship hit I can see that too because they did have 5" guns.
But its already hard now in game if you don’t bring attacking carriers to battles for plane kills. If you give a carrier a @1 bonus ship kill makes them stronger. I can still see giving them that. AA Carrier @1 bonus ship shot ain’t gonna do you know good with just planes attacking. Destroyers are now even bigger in battles as pawns for Capital ships to survive.

Not exactly what I was saying about Fg, but it can be simpler to use only “1” as special roll for a double hit.
I was saying that if there is no enemy’s plane, Fighter can do double hits upon naval or ground on a “1” roll.

To simplify your critical hit system, use only “1” roll.
Fighter C8 M5 A5 D5 targeting aircraft first. But, on “1” hit an additional unit, naval or ground.
Naval fighter C8 M4 A4 D5, … same.
Carrier A0 D3 targeting aircraft, but on “1” hit an additional naval unit. On “2 or 3”, if there is no aircraft, then no hit.
TcB C10 M5 A6 D5, pick ground or naval target, on “1”, hit an additional aircraft.
DiveB C10 M4 A5 D5 pick ground or naval target, on “1”, hit an additional aircraft.

Because aircraft and carrier have so low combat values I would put Fleet Carrier A0 D3* at 12 IPCs and Escort A0 D2* at 7 IPCs.

So where on same page there is only 1 die roll per piece.
For the fighters you want more kills early on planes. Is this your air superiority idea ?
Most guys won’t play that way.
Why N figs higher in defense ?
This due to yes they were pretty good ? Or part of your carrier weak defense. It should be the Tac five jobs to do most killing. 2 N figs should not be able to kill a BB that easy. So I can see N fig staying at D4 but increasing the Tac Dive picture target at a 5 period. You got to remember we have a good idea how these planes work now in games.
Tac bomber A6 picking piece is pretty strong.
Carriers I can see giving a 1 roll an extra naval ship hit but cost of 12 would make it where US could build a complete one at 28 icps instead of 34 icps. Is this based on all the US carrier builds in war. But then not right if rest countries get it. Could make this C12 an US NA instead.
I may raise the fig bonus plane kill to a 3 or less roll to counter your idea.
That’s why if carriers weak then u shouldn’t leave them undefended that’s why dest or huge like they were in war. Plus don’t leave your fleet in a sz without an AB on an island for 3 support figs for scramble or attack.

I’m also saying with the last list we used we had the best 2 games being the last 2 games we played. Im giving guys a huge amount of credit for dealing with these changes the last 4 games with dealing with 2 different scenarios of ship aa and plane vs plane. We are going to stick with what we have now so 4 new guys can get used to game to.

IDK if I have any air superiority bonus.
I’m just trying to figure a way to make Carrier with 2 aircraft (Naval Fg or DiveB) a better defensive unit into the roster for the cost.

I got the right fit between TcB/DiveB vs Fg or Naval Fg in my game by giving Fg A4 D4 C7, always shoot aircraft first and TcB A6 D4 C8, always pick ground or naval target. Fighter is a nemesis for TcB and works well.

IMO, according to your roster, I would go Naval Fg A4 D4 C8, always shoot aircraft first but can hit any unit when no enemy’s plane.
On “1” still shoot another plane, if any. (To keep consistency about the critical hit roll.)
Dive Bomber A5 D4 C10, always pick ground or naval target.
On “1” shoot a plane, if any.

My guess about a 12 IPCs Carrier, is for the scale cost by “3 IPCs” (Cruiser at 9, Carrier at 12, BB at 15) of naval unit which speed the purchase phase by adding or substracting 1 Infantry.
And also about little defense factor from loosing near half combat value compared to a regular G40 Full Carrier A0 D4 C16 with 2 Fgs: A12 D20, 4 hits Cost 36 IPCs

At a reduced 12 IPCs Carrier A0 D3, with 2 Fighters A4 D4 C8, you get A8 D11, 4 hits, Cost 28 IPCs. Which is certainly more in line of the balance spectrum between combat values for the cost ratio.

Carrier A0 D3, 12 IPCs with 2 Dive Bombers, A10 D11, 4 hits cost 32 IPCs.
Is still sub-optimal on defense compared to
G40 Carrier A0 D4, 16 IPCs with 2 TcB A12 D16, 4 hits cost 38 IPCs

Compared to the best combo (FG+TcB) in G40, a 14 IPCs Carrier is much weaker.
A14 D18 C37 vs A9 D11 C32
At C12 it is a bit better: A9 D11 C30.

Besides, I totally understand you need not change values for helping people getting used to a given roster. We are just theorizing about goal and means to reach a given objective into game.

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Well for 2 icps more the Tac Dive getting to pick target 3 or less is worth the extra cost for what I’ve seen in games.
I’ll have to look at this again. Was gonna drop it to AD@4 and can pick target.
AD@5 and can pick target may be to strong. I’ll check it out still.
As for the secondary hits its getting to confusion now and besides your saying Figs get a normal AD@4 naval kill plus if roll is a @2 plane kill and instead you want the @2 to go against a ship so the ships take 2 hits and nothing against the planes ? Then you have more planes again and thats not the idea if I have this right.

As far as carriers getting a ship hit I can see that too because they did have 5" guns.
But its already hard now in game if you don’t bring attacking carriers to battles for plane kills. If you give a carrier a @1 bonus ship kill makes them stronger. I can still see giving them that. AA Carrier @1 bonus ship shot ain’t gonna do you know good with just planes attacking. Destroyers are now even bigger in battles as pawns for Capital ships to survive.

Not exactly what I was saying about Fg, but it can be simpler to use only “1” as special roll for a double hit.
I was saying that if there is no enemy’s plane, Fighter can do double hits upon naval or ground on a “1” roll.

To simplify your critical hit system, use only “1” roll.
Fighter C8 M5 A5 D5 targeting aircraft first. But, on “1” hit an additional unit, naval or ground.
Naval fighter C8 M4 A4 D5, … same.
Carrier A0 D3 targeting aircraft, but on “1” hit an additional naval unit. On “2 or 3”, if there is no aircraft, then no hit.
TcB C10 M5 A6 D5, pick ground or naval target, on “1”, hit an additional aircraft.
DiveB C10 M4 A5 D5 pick ground or naval target, on “1”, hit an additional aircraft.

Because aircraft and carrier have so low combat values I would put Fleet Carrier A0 D3* at 12 IPCs and Escort A0 D2* at 7 IPCs.

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@baron-Münchhausen
What you mean by OP ? Over powering ?
I can see most of your points but that is confusing to most what your suggestions are.

I should have use unbalanced instead of OP, just compare Fighter :
Fig C8 AD@5 ground AD@4 ships + if roll is a 2 or less get a DF plane kill too.
N Fig C8 AD@4 + if roll is a 2 or less get a DF plane kill too.

Tac & Dive C10 AD@5 + roll a 1 get a DF plane kill too. If roll is a 3 or less can pick target.

2 IPCs higher same combat values, but slightly different capacities.

At least, keeping same combat values, I woul increase TcB and Dive B in a way that any hit means from 1 to 5 pick target. Keeping “1” same as you above: “1” is also a hit on enemy’s plane if any.

About Fighter and Carriers, I see them as primarly targeting enemy’s aircraft.
So, that’s why I say, keeping same combat values but reverse special numbers toward their secondary targets: either ground (Fg) or naval ( Fg or Carrier).
So, in a case where there is only DDs attacking a carrier with 2 Fgs, a Carrier can roll a lucky “1” to hit a DD while Fgs can fully roll @4 to sink DD.
If planes are also attacking, in that case, the DDs are going to be shield by aircraft taking hits from Fg or Carrier AAguns, unless Fg getting “2” or less to sink a ship, too.

HTH, see my point.