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Question about subs in naval combat…



  • From the “Errata” section of the Avalon Hill site:

    Submarines

    Subs have always been confusing. Can you summarize the changes?

    Here’s what you need to remember about subs:

    1. Every sub, regardless of whether it’s on the attacking or defending side, fires in the Opening Fire step of combat. That’s the only time a sub ever fires.

    Q: Submarines are part of a large naval engagement. Do they get to fire during the opening fire step of every round, or only the first round?

    A: Every round.

    Can someone please clarify the meaning of “opening fire step”?

    When they say round, do they mean a round as in russia, germany, GB, Japan, and USA is one round, or do they mean round as in attacker rolls then  defender rolls and back to the attacker is one round?

    I ask because one could load up on cheap subs  and send them into naval combat as cannon fodder to absorb hits while hopefully dishing out in return, which is what my regular opponent usually does. Not a bad idea, but if it’s not legal then that would change alot of things.

    I realize I’m not asking this as clearly as I want to…hope y’all understand what I mean. Like, I know about the opening fire step in that subs have an advantage if no destroyers are present, but the Avalon Hill quote above is confusing in what they mean. If you read that section one way, it says that subs only fire once in any naval combat engagement, and if you read it another it means that the subs fire continuously until the combat ends.

    I hope someone can clear this up for me.

    Rob.



  • the steps of the round
    1. opening fire (all subs, unless the destroyer is present then they will roll in step 3 or 4 depending on offense  or defense)
    2. remover opening fire casualties
    3. attacking units fire
    4. defending units fire
    5. remove casualties
    6. press attack or retreat (if you press the attack repeat steps 1-6)

    and yeah their is a opening fire phase in revised always to my understandings of the rules… in regular axis and allies the milton Bradley version their is sneak attack for the subs but that is only for the offensive subs



  • If you don’t have a destroyer present, losses inflicted by submarines can’t fire back for that combat round. (one combat round meaning both sides fire once, not each player having a turn.) Technically, submarines should fire always in opening fire step, but it really doesn’t matter since a destroyer negates the opening fire, making subs hit just like normal. It’s a technicality I guess.



  • It does very much matter that they still fire in the opening fire step. It just hit me very recently why it makes a difference; consider the following situation:

    3 subs + 1 destroyer defending vs 1 dest + 1 fighter.

    Let’s say the 1 of the defending subs hit and the defending destroyer also hits. Now is why the technicality becomes very important: since subs can only hit naval units, the attacker will be forced to take the sub hit on the destroyer in the opening fire step, and although that destroyer can still fire back because of its own properties, the fighter now is forced to take the defending destroyer’s hit.

    If the subs firing were simply moved to the same timing as the rest of normal combat, then the attacker could theoretically choose to take the destroyer hit on his own destroyer, and thus avoid losing his fighter since the sub hit cannot be allocated to an air unit. With the technicality he has to lose both units. Simply put, you have to allocate all sub casualties first, then you are allowed to choose what takes the other hits.



  • Subs always can only hit naval units. It doesn’t actually make a difference in which step they fire when an enemy destroyer is present, as long as you can keep track. I prefer to roll black die for subs, white die for fighters, and in this manner get 2 types of units rolled hopefully in one toss of the die.


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