New Tax System, how would you do it?



  • @Xi:

    F-alk,
    A number of times a year I hear that some CEO in the US has left his corporation after a few bad years of profits and dividends. The CEO leaves with a $10,000,000 bonus. :-? :roll: Do CEOs in Europe get royal treatment like this when their corporations perform poorly?

    Yup,
    we now have the interesting case that we have a lawsuit against the CEOs of Mannesmann (mobile phone net) who sold the company to Vodaphone and got themselves royal bonuses. Actually, the case is about wether the CEOs only agreed not to defend Mannesmann against that take-over because of that offer to them.

    Another funny thing we have over here is a double standard:

    You are not “allowed” to argue that the “rich get to rich” on cost of others. You are then called “envious”, “jealous”. THerefore, the line workers and unions should keep their mouthes shut and not want higher wages.
    On the other hand, the people who accuse of the above when you complain will argue: In comparison to international standards, german CEOs are underpaid.
    Now i ask: Isn’t that just envious, jealous? With the only difference that the one is on the “national level” and the other one on the “international level”. Plus: What is the driving force behind capitalism? Envy, jealousy and greed…. So can anyone explain why you are allowed to complain for more money for CEOs but not allowed to complain about the high money they get?



  • I know of just as many examples of poor people taking advantage of people also….



  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    I know of just as many examples of poor people taking advantage of people also….

    ANd if you integrate over people and accounts/damage that these people did, then divide by the costs you’d have to pay to reduce the number of people doing it…
    Which one woul dbe better:
    Try to reduce the huge number of little damage by a costly effort,
    or reduce the number of the few who do much damage ?

    It’s all and only capitalism, why i am after the bigger fishes.



  • The problem with the rich is that they only think short term. They seem not to care about the people they hurt over unfair job cuts, having things over priced, ruining the envoriment, and taking advatage of others. I don’t mean to say all rich are like this I’m just saying that people who do these things tend to be rich.

    CEOs are always getting great deals when the leave a company, I wonder how many workers lose their jobs to cover those deals?? Any idea Deviant:Scripter.



  • I’ve never heard of any company who fires their employees on purpose just so they can give a CEO a bonus because he’s leaving. That’s a stretch even for you waraxis… 😛



  • @waraxis:

    The problem with the rich is that they only think short term. They seem not to care about the people they hurt … ruining the envoriment, and taking advantage of others. I don’t mean to say all rich are like this, I’m just saying that people who do these things tend to be rich.

    I know and have seen plenty of people from all walks of life who take advantage of others and pollute the environment. It ain’t just the rich!

    I don’t think I’m rich, though according to Clinton and Gore I am getting close. I have three kids to put through college and retirement for my wife and I to plan. I think the system we have gives people with initiative the opportunity to succeed beyond their wildest dreams. I’ve got dreams, too, but I have placed some of them a distant second to spending time with my wife and kids. I want them to know what a loving family is. That example is getting harder to find these days. Not saying it’s perfect.



  • @Xi:


    I think the system we have gives people with initiative the opportunity to succeed beyond their wildest dreams. I’ve got dreams, too, but I have placed some of them a distant second to spending time with my wife and kids. I want them to know what a loving family is. That example is getting harder to find these days.

    I think the major problem is that the "successful"ness of these wildest dreams often are totally incompatible with the loving family and spending time with family and friends.
    To play the big game, you often have to show “flexibility” in where you work. This means that your wife, if she supports your desires, will not work, and you, your wife and your kids have to find new friends quite often.
    A high price to pay.
    And if it’s true, it might be one of the reasons why so many of the “rich” seem to be sociopaths (with socio more in the sense of society).



  • Except for the ‘Socio’ part, that’s a rewording of what I was saying.
    I agree. But, success does not necessarily mean money and fame. That’s where a lot of TV/movie stars/models fail(,drugs, short marriage, kids, divorce, custody/financial fights, plastic surgery, liposuction, two-faced for audience approval, etc.). Then we have politicians who become contortionists to be elected(abortion, taxes, guns, national defense, UN, NATO, SEATO, NAFTA, minimum wage, healthcare, illegal aliens, etc.)

    Often, the successful are those who stand by their convictions, even if they keep quiet about them(TV/movie stars/models, not politicians!



  • @Xi:

    Except for the ‘Socio’ part, that’s a rewording of what I was saying.
    … But, success does not necessarily mean money and fame.

    Well, i think the daily definítion of success that is presented by the media et al. is mostly fame, wealth and good looks. What you define as success for yourself can be different, but that probably is not part of the public picture painted of “success”. And with the three above seen as success, we continue to bred people to follow those goals, as they want to be “successful”. It might look different if our society could implement another picture of “success”.



  • @waraxis:

    The problem with the rich is that they only think short term. They seem not to care about the people they hurt over unfair job cuts, having things over priced, ruining the envoriment, and taking advatage of others. I don’t mean to say all rich are like this I’m just saying that people who do these things tend to be rich.

    CEOs are always getting great deals when the leave a company, I wonder how many workers lose their jobs to cover those deals?? Any idea Deviant:Scripter.

    two stupid things.

    1. wealthy people get this way far more often by thinking long term. True, some of them do not care who they step over to get the money, but this does not make them worse than the poor, but rather in many cases just smarter, more far-sighted, and more able. I think that one day i may be wealthy. The ironic thing is that in my profession, the harder i work, the more people i will help, and the wealthier i will become. In fact, if i were to slack, i would make less money, help fewer people and be less useful.
    2. i think that the workers in many cases would have lost their jobs anyway. But i agree with D:S - “hmmmm . . . Jerry is leaving next week. Let´s get rid of the Detroit plant to give him a good send off, eh?”


  • Cystic crypt If you think cutting down some of our forests being cut down, rivers and streams being polluted, jobs being sent overseas so CEOs can make tons more money, cigarete companies hooking people to those cancer sticks and Enron are not crimes commited by rich then you need to rethink about your position.

    I have no problem with Capitialism. I do believe it is better than Marxism but extreme Capitialism is not good for most people. If the Rich people keep commiting crimes of those that I have stated it will be their down fall. You can only screw over the middle and poor class before it comes back to bite you back.

    And using yourself as a example was in poor taste, I have never stated that people who earn a good wage should be taxed into the poor house.
    For the what evertimes this is I will state this: Small business owners or even small time millionaries I have no problem with. But billionaries who go around looking for tax loop holes cause for them a billion wasn’t enough is wrong.

    Do you understand what is happening in this country?? Slowly 2 types of people are growing rich and poor. It’s the middle class that is being attacked. Do you understand how a Capitialist system works.

    I’m not attacking it. I am defending it. A good Capitialist system takes care of the middle class. How will it help the middle class if large numbers of jobs are sent out of the country. How will it help if the top 1% of the country takes more and more of the wealth.



  • Companies aren’t moving to other countries so they can pay their CEO’s a lot of money. They’re moving there so they can yield the most profits for their stockholders.

    The ironic part is, you want to tax them astronomically, and treat them horribly, and then wonder why they leave. Is it any wonder that we lost Boeing Headquarters to Chicago, when this state treats businesses like CRAP?



  • I have never said to treat bussiness badly If you had read everything you would know that. You are losing jobs out of the country cause of taxes yes that I agree but also from greedy CEOs. Why do CEOs make so much more than line workers now adays than 50 years ago?



  • @Anonymous:

    Companies aren’t moving to other countries …. Is it any wonder that we lost Boeing Headquarters to Chicago…

    Hmm, Chicago is part of another country?



  • @F_alk:

    @Anonymous:

    Companies aren’t moving to other countries …. Is it any wonder that we lost Boeing Headquarters to Chicago…

    Hmm, Chicago is part of another country?

    Did he ever say that it WAS part of another country?

    Why don’t you quote the entire thing…



  • A big reason many companies move out of Calif is the power situation, chip makers in particular don’t like it when their power gets cut in rolling blackouts. The tax load in Calif is heavier then most places as well. Capitalism is all about finding the most efficient means of getting the job done. All you have to do is ensure there are good rules/laws everywhere. If a comany relocates to a third world country so they can dump crap in the environment then an import tax should be levied to level the playing field. It ain’t perfect and it’s most likely the worst system save all the others….

    Chicago seems a smarter place for Boeing anyways. Isn’t it the Major US Hub, busiest airport or something like that?

    BB



  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    @F_alk:

    Hmm, Chicago is part of another country?

    Did he ever say that it WAS part of another country?

    Why don’t you quote the entire thing…

    Ok, here it is again:@Anonymous:

    Companies aren’t moving to other countries so they can pay their CEO’s a lot of money. They’re moving there so they can yield the most profits for their stockholders.

    The ironic part is, you want to tax them astronomically, and treat them horribly, and then wonder why they leave. Is it any wonder that we lost Boeing Headquarters to Chicago, when this state treats businesses like CRAP?

    Ok. I can’t see “different state” or “different city” here, only “different country”.
    In the first paragraph s/he has “moving” companies, in the second s/he doesn’t wonder “why they leave”.

    Only in the last sentence s/he brings up “this state” which is a non-information, as s/he was a guest not telling what “this” is, where s/he is from . You need to know the location of Boeing’s hq before that, and i dare to suspect that enough people here don’t know that. All that you can conclude is that the hq did start in a different state.

    Can you follow this, D:S?



  • @waraxis:

    Cystic crypt If you think cutting down some of our forests being cut down, rivers and streams being polluted, jobs being sent overseas so CEOs can make tons more money, cigarete companies hooking people to those cancer sticks and Enron are not crimes commited by rich then you need to rethink about your position.

    impressive. you managed to make it look like i said something completely different than what i said. let me requote some of what i said:
    “wealthy people get this way far more often by thinking long term. True, some of them do not care who they step over to get the money, but this does not make them worse than the poor, but rather in many cases just smarter, more far-sighted, and more able.”
    Now by reading over this, i am having a lot of trouble finding the part where i say that cutting down trees, polluting streams blah blah blah is not a crime being commited by the rich. And i actually have little trouble with forests being cut down as long as they are replanted. Most people know my position on smoking. The fact is, what i said, i believe to not be in error. The wealthy may make more opportunities to do wrong on a bigger scales, but this does not make them more fiendish, just more able. Next time you need to go after me, try not to need to do it by imagining things i did not say.

    I have no problem with Capitialism. I do believe it is better than Marxism but extreme Capitialism is not good for most people. If the Rich people keep commiting crimes of those that I have stated it will be their down fall. You can only screw over the middle and poor class before it comes back to bite you back.

    you are new to this forum. I am not an extreme capitalist by any means. I think that capitalism needs to be moderated by a somewhat sociallistic government with a social conscience.

    And using yourself as a example was in poor taste, I have never stated that people who earn a good wage should be taxed into the poor house.
    For the what evertimes this is I will state this: Small business owners or even small time millionaries I have no problem with. But billionaries who go around looking for tax loop holes cause for them a billion wasn’t enough is wrong.

    from what i recall, you said something like this:The problem with the rich is that they only think short term. They seem not to care about the people they hurt over unfair job cuts, having things over priced, ruining the envoriment, and taking advatage of others. I don’t mean to say all rich are like this I’m just saying that people who do these things tend to be rich.
    My point was that this is an unfair generalization about wealthy people, and sociallists do it all the time - paint the wealthy with an evil brush in pushing their agenda. So we push back a little.

    Do you understand what is happening in this country?? Slowly 2 types of people are growing rich and poor. It’s the middle class that is being attacked. Do you understand how a Capitialist system works.

    I’m not attacking it. I am defending it. A good Capitialist system takes care of the middle class. How will it help the middle class if large numbers of jobs are sent out of the country. How will it help if the top 1% of the country takes more and more of the wealth.

    well, now i have been properly rebuked. I will go and learn about how a capitalist system works. Fortunately i live in a country where the middle class is not as screwed over as it is in the mighty US of A, so maybe i may be saved at long last.



  • @waraxis:

    I have never said to treat bussiness badly If you had read everything you would know that. You are losing jobs out of the country cause of taxes yes that I agree but also from greedy CEOs. Why do CEOs make so much more than line workers now adays than 50 years ago?

    because the people who hire the CEO´s look at the potential return on their investment. The investment into the line worker might bring in the same return as if they brought in a monkey. Since the line workers are only slightly more sanitary, they use the line workers instead of the monkeys. (and i used to be a line worker, so i know what i´m talking about, so no need to lecture me on the hard life of a line worker. They are the reason i impoverished myself to go to school - so i would not end up like them) The CEO, on the other hand, may be considered to be “worth” the umpteen million dollars they are paid (not that many of them, but it seems that you are blown away by anecdotal evidence . . .). This is because the board of directors might say "well, it will cost stock-holders $x million, however if he performs the way he did with Gadget´s Inc. then he will be worth $12x million. or whatever multiplyer you wish to use. So although some of them may appear corrupt, it is hoped that they are not all this way.



  • @F_alk:

    @Deviant:Scripter:

    @F_alk:

    Hmm, Chicago is part of another country?

    Did he ever say that it WAS part of another country?

    Why don’t you quote the entire thing…

    Ok, here it is again:@Anonymous:

    Companies aren’t moving to other countries so they can pay their CEO’s a lot of money. They’re moving there so they can yield the most profits for their stockholders.

    The ironic part is, you want to tax them astronomically, and treat them horribly, and then wonder why they leave. Is it any wonder that we lost Boeing Headquarters to Chicago, when this state treats businesses like CRAP?

    Ok. I can’t see “different state” or “different city” here, only “different country”.
    In the first paragraph s/he has “moving” companies, in the second s/he doesn’t wonder “why they leave”.

    Only in the last sentence s/he brings up “this state” which is a non-information, as s/he was a guest not telling what “this” is, where s/he is from . You need to know the location of Boeing’s hq before that, and i dare to suspect that enough people here don’t know that. All that you can conclude is that the hq did start in a different state.

    Can you follow this, D:S?

    Well F_alk, even a non-USy can tell that Washington State treated Boeing poorly so they left for another city. This is a big issue. I´ve seen major companies leaving Winnipeg for various reasons, many of them apparently stupid impositions by the Province, or ridiculous/draconian labour legislation. Obviously guest is pissed off that a major player in Seattle left for another city, which can in many cases decimate a city´s economy.



  • Yeah, I’d say our economy here was pretty much built on two companies: Microsoft and Boeing (the manufacturing part). God help us if Locke drives them out of town too….



  • @cystic:

    Well F_alk, even a non-USy can tell that Washington State treated Boeing poorly so they left for another city. This is a big issue. …

    Well, let’s say the range of that issue surely is not transcontinental. Or could you say where the HQ of Mercedes (Daimler/Chrysler) is, without looking that up?



  • I’m guessing not in North America. I understand there are less and less US executives, Chrysler was the junior partner. I have no idea but I’m guessing Germany. I’m Canadian, why should I know? 🙂 Anyone know (or care) where the headquarters of Nortel is? (It who crushed so many an RRSP)……

    BB



  • @BigBlocky:

    I have no idea but I’m guessing Germany. I’m Canadian, why should I know? 🙂

    🙂
    Well, i was not asking for the country (i would have guessed that Boeeing sits in the US) but for the state :). Anyway, there are more important things to know.


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