Air combat in the first round, bfr Naval or ground Cmbt & Air Supremacy

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is a new start for an Air Combat phase before Naval Combat:

This house rule on Air Combat phase is the first part of an Air Supremacy house rule:

Air-to-air combat for the first cycle of combat where only air units may be taken as casualities.

If no side has got Air supremacy after the first cycle of combat, the aircrafts attack as normal.
If Air Supremacy is obtained, then aircrafts attack/defend during opening fire step of combat.

Air Supremacy
Aircrafts making first shots when their is no air cover or AAA to protect ground/naval units.
Aircrafts attack or defend in the opening fire step of combat if no enemy aircraft (Fighters / Tactical Bombers / Strategical Bombers) or AAA guns are present or remain in combat.
Effect: any ground or naval casualties are removed from play without being able to counterattack.
AAA: each AAA (1942.2/1940) blocks 3 aircrafts from getting Air Supremacy.
Cruiser (house rule: if acting like 1 naval AA gun): each CA block 1 aircraft from getting Air Supremacy.

Units and value:
Escorts are attacking fighters.
Interceptors are defending fighters.

Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
Fgt Interceptor @2
Bombers (StrB and TcB) @1
**Fighter escort @1 +1 if paired with 1 TcB or Fgt. *****
So 1 pair of Fgts: 1@2 and the other 1@1.
TacB can be either attacking (each giving +1 Att to 1 Fgt) or defending.
Since defending Fgts already @2, defending TacB give no bonus to Fgts.

For a single round, aircrafts from each side fires (attacker, first, then defender, no preemptive shot) against ennemy aircrafts.

The defending player get some choices to determine the number of defending aircraft(s):
If there is only 1 fighter(or TacB)  on a carrier, then their is no air combat (the aircraft is considered patrolling near the other naval units).
The naval battle is as usual.

If there is 2 fighters (or TacB) on a carrier, then 1 or 2 aircraft(s) are sent away against incoming attacking aircraft(s).

If he had 3 or more aircrafts, the defender must send all aircrafts but one; he could also send the 1 aircraft kept in reserve near the naval units.
(So the defender can always keep 1 aircraft that will fights normally (at @4 or @3) screened by cheaper unit or a BB that absorbs 1 hit.)

In the 1940 version, if the sea-zone is near an airbase, the defender can scramble up to 3 fighters (no TacB) against the attacking aircrafts.

To determine which aircraft is a casuality:
When interceptors rolls “2” they hit the escorting fighters first, then the StrB or TacB.
Attacker choose casuality between StrB or TacB.

When interceptors rolls “1” they hit the bombers (TcB and StrB) first, then fighters.
When intercepting TacB rolls “1”, a hit, the attacker choose casuality amongst aircrafts.

When an escorting fighter Att@2 rolls “2”, it hits an intercepting fighter first, then a TacB, and a StrB at last.
Defender chooses all other casuality between Fgt, TacB or StrB (if present).

Optional rule for Minimizing damages from Air Combat phase:
At least 1 aircraft must be lost from 1 side or the other.

If 1 escorting aircraft and 1 interceptor are both hit, we can introduce this special rule:
both hits are negate for attacker and defender so neither aircrafts  are destroyed.  
Priority is to destroy bombers (either StrB or TacB) from attacker and to destroy fighters from defenders.

In this way, it minimizes the dramatic effect of attrition on precious units so for Aerial Combat phase the loss are reduce on each sides, for examples:
2 Fgts lost                vs 1 Int lost becomes 1 Fgt escort lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
1 TacB and 1 Fgt lost vs 1 Int lost becomes 1 TacB lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
1 TacB lost                vs 1 Int lost becomes 0 TacB lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
1 StrB and 1 TacB     vs  1 Fgt and 1 TacB lost: 1 StrB lost vs 1 Fgt.
In the last example, the minimum lost of 1 aircraft is applied.

Of course, if attacker looses 2 Fgts and defender none, their is no trade off.

Latest OOB SBR rules for reference and comparison:
1942.1 : AA fires, then surviving Fgt A1/Bmb A0  vs Fgt D2
1942.2 : Fgt A1/Bmb A1 preemptives shots vs Fgt D2, then AA fires
Global 1940: Fgt A1/Bmb A1 vs Fgt D1, then AA fires

@Baron:

Re: DK’s Strategic Bombing Rules - submitted for your review
Here is my proposal D revised:

Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
Fgt Interceptor @2
Bombers (StrB and TcB) @1
**Fighter escort @1 +1 if paired with 1 TcB or Fgt. *****
So 1 pair of Fgts: 1@2 and the other 1@1.

When interceptors rolls “2” they hit the escorting fighters first, then the StrB or TacB.
When interceptors rolls “1” they hit the bombers (TcB and StrB) first, then fighters.

StrB now still can be destroy even behind a screen of escorting Fgts.

*** I modified the escorting Fgt with 1@2/2 Fgts to get the exact proportion of number /2 for aircraft against ground target:
Fgt Def4/2=2 Fgt A3/2=1.5
TcB and StrB are still inferiors in dogfight with their @1.

It does not contradict history in the way that even when the StrB and TacB were priority target, the intercepting Fgts doesn’t have the choice but to engage the escort screen and sometimes destroy the escorting Fgts instead of the bombers.

[baron Münchhausen]

Now I’m wondering if giving defending Fgt@2 isn’t too high odds against attacking aircrafts.
Because it will unbalance naval battles in favor of defense: giving the defender a higher chance to destroy attacking units @4 (StrB and TacB) against naval units.

To counterweight this, I’m wondering if giving each StrB 2@1 will help?

Flying fortresses were quite able to make a good fight against fighters…

[baron Münchhausen]

I was thinking about the fact that A&A is more a strategical than a tactical game.
That the House rule have just posted earlier is more tactical and maybe quite unbalancing.
Other treads about Air Supremacy and some HR suggestion from Uncrustable help me thinking � about this:
It is a way of incorporating flying combat over naval and ground target and also integrating Air Supremacy.

OOB rule from 1940 about SBR and interceptors give all planes 1 round @1.
Let’s suppose it is combine with a regular fight.

Every round of combat, on a roll of “1”, all planes (attacker’s and defender’s) except defending bombers (because they defend@1) get to strike 1 plane (owner’s choice: Fg or Tac or Bmb).

If there is no plane left to take that casuality, then the player’s who get the roll can pick any target of his choice amongst those present in the battle, whether ground or naval unit.
Except for subs, unless there is a DD on the same side of the plane.

So, a roll of “1” by aircraft mean destruction of another one.
If there is Air Supremacy, then you can pick your casuality.

I think it is simpler and succesful “1” can be rationalize as planes vs planes battle, and can easily give an advantage to the side which still have planes flying.

It is not as powerful than first strike but eliminating early powerful unit at @3 or @4 can be as interesting.

What do you say?
�

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is my main influence for the preceding house rule:

@Uncrustable:

well talking about letting subs choose on 1s and cruisers hit air on 1s, then why not use the below?
No single unit is OP because they all have an ability one dice rolls of ‘1’

Follow below on dice rolls of ‘1’ in combat

––Super Submarines (or maybe regular subs?) on offense only can choose surface target hit (TRN, CV, CA, BB) cannot choose destroyers or other subs, transports are valid targets (maybe regular subs can only choose on offense but super subs can choose on both offense and defense?)
----Destroyers on offense and defense can choose a submarine hit (SS)
----Cruisers on offense and defense can choose an aircraft hit (FG, TAC, STRT)
----Battleships on offense and defense can choose a surface target hit (TRN, DD, CV, CA, BB) transports are valid targets, may not choose submarines

----Tanks on defense and offense can choose ground hit (INF, MECH, ART, ARM, AAA)
----Fighters on defense and offense can choose air hit (FG, TAC, STRT), does not apply to SBR escort/intercept
––Tactical bombers on offense and defense can choose ground target (INF, MECH, ART, ARM, AAA) Land combat only, cannot choose naval targets
––Strategic bombers on offense only; the defender will choose 2 hits instead of one (Bomber killed 2 guys instead of 1) Land combat only, does not apply to naval combat or any SBR

NOTE: BBs cannot choose subs, Cruisers choose aircraft, subs and BBs can choose transports, DDs become even more sub hunter/killers
Also NOTE: the units we already see purchased alot of (INF/ART/MECH/DD/CV) receive little to no boost

Submarines on the other hand may become very powerfull on offense, which is why i seriously consider restricting it to super subs only, and on offense only

This is a very simply and effective/historical way to bring more diversity to the game and reward dice rolls of ‘1’

However, I better see how it can create an unbalancing effect, specially against AAA unit.
By making plane able to destroy other plane every round on a roll of “1”, it make them far better unit than AAA for 10 IPCs only.

And it becomes worse when we add my Air Supremacy HR because the casuality can be apply to any unit.

That’s why, I prefer to add the following “to the first round only” restriction to the preceding HR :

**For the first round only,
attacking fighters on roll of “1” can pick his casuality against any aircraft, whether Fgt,TacB or StratB. And for any TacB which is attacking @4, if it rolls “2” or “1” then it is a hit against aircraft.
If there is none, then the player can pick any other unit of his choice.

Attacking bombers on roll of “1” can only pick ground unit casuality instead of picking plane.**

For the first round only, any defending TacB on roll of “1” and any Fighter on a roll of “2” or “1” can pick his casuality � against any aircraft, whether Fgt,TacB or StratB.
If there is none, then the player can pick any other unit of his choice.

AAA defense are still roll before the regular combat phase as OOB rule, so some attacking aircrafts can already be down before being able to roll any dice.

Now this Air Supremacy and Aerial combat over naval and ground combat is integrated in the first round of the battle. It can be as damaging as any SBR or TacBR, no more, no less.

Addendum: The ennemy which can pick 1 casuality, do it at the end of all those selected by the owning player.
So, if a player got 1 hit while having Air Supremacy in a naval battle, and the other player choose to damage 1 battleship amongst other casualities, then this BB can be selected and sink by the other player.

[baron Münchhausen]

With this preceding Air Supremacy House Rule, it needs a specific AAA Hrule:
AAA are now A1D1M1C5, on first round they get 1@1 while on defense vs up to three planes, max 1 roll/plane as OOB rule about AAA.

In addition, if AAA is present during the first round of a battle, then 1 AAA negates the Air Supremacy advantage of 3 aircrafts.

So, when rolling dices and there is no plane to take the casualty, just select which plane is not covered by the Anti AirSupremacy from AAA. When this or these plane(s) get a successful roll on the first round, the player can choose which ground unit is taken as casualty.

I think it will be a nice incentive to buy AAA with this rule.
And a cheap AAA at 5 IPCs will be a good counterweight to Air Supremacy.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

Now I’m wondering if giving defending Fgt@2 isn’t too high odds against attacking aircrafts.
Because it will unbalance naval battles in favor of defense: giving the defender a higher chance to destroy attacking units @4 (StrB and TacB) against naval units.

To counterweight this, I’m wondering if giving each StrB 2@1 will help?

Flying fortresses were quite able to make a good fight against fighters…

Absolutly not in view of the devastating effect of bombers airfleet.

I think now it should be even lower to 1/2@1:

1 StratB A4/0D1M6C12 can SBR and TBR, when paired with another stratB one of the two get 1@1 & the other 0@0 against incoming fighter interceptors.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is my last revised version, and I hope simpler and more playable.

I also intended by this Dogfight and Air supremacy House Rule to create a kind of little counterweight against The Bomber fleet strategy (if it ever prove is OverPower effectiveness).

Aerial battle during the opening round of combat.
When their is planes on both sides, the first roll is treated differently.
It is not a different roll as regular combat roll. It is just an improve effect when a “1” is rolled.
When attacking and defending Fighters and TacBombers which roll a “1”, instead of treating it as a regular casuality, it must be an aircraft casuality.
It is still the owning player which decides his casuality amongst planes (Fg, TacB, StratB).

When Strat Bombers are attacking, only the outnumbering StratB amongst aircrafts + 3/AAA can have a special effect on a roll of “1”.
Example: 3 StratB and 2 Fg attacking 3 Fgs. Only 2 StratBs can get this special effect on a roll of “1”.
3 StratB and 2 Fg (5 planes) attacking 1 Fg + 1 AAA (1+3=4). Only 1 StratBs can get this special effect on a roll of “1”.

This effect is the same as Air Supremacy, which means a “1” from a StratBomber can pick any ground or naval unit as casuality, once the owning player had selected all other casualities from the whole combat round.

StratBombers on defense have no special roll.

Air Supremacy
This special rule apply at one condition: no plane is present on the other side at the beginning of the battle.

Air Supremacy give any attacking planes or defending Fighter or TacB when rolling a “1” to be able to choose as casuality any ground or naval unit once the owning player selected all other casualities.

AAA will be A1D1M1C5, on first round can get up to 3 preemptive rolls @1 against attacking aircrafts, max 1 roll/aircraft (as OOB AAA). Each AAA can also block 3 planes from rolling for Air Supremacy, including StratB in aerial fight.
That’s why, AAA unit can attack on a regular combat move. They attack @1, but can also prevent Air Supremacy from defending aircraft.

Example: 3 StratBs and 2 Fgs attacking vs ground units only + 1 AAA. Only 2 planes can have a Air Supremacy effect on a roll “1”.
So, when AAA is present, attacking or defending player have to tell which rolls are special.

Just remember for all Air Supremacy effect:
The ennemy player which can pick 1 casuality, do it at the end of all those selected by the owning player.
So, if a player got 1 hit while having Air Supremacy in a naval battle, and the other player choose to damage 1 battleship amongst other casualities, then this BB can be selected and sink by the other player.

Other OOB rules about casuality apply, like Subs cannot be taken as casuality by a plane hit if there is no DD present.
Owning player have to allocate all hits if possible.
So a defending player cannot keep subs lasts because some ennemy StratBombers cannot choose them. If there was some attacking surface vessels that can make hit on subs, then the defending player must allocate hit on subs and left other surface vessel to be hit or destroyed by planes.
Etc.

[Derek]

I think it is simpler to just have a single round of air combat before regular combat begins.
All aircraft hit on 1s, AAA are also fired during this round but all dice in this round are simultaneous,
That is roll for AA and all planes, then remove the carnage, choosing your own casualties, proceed to normal combat
If during ANY round of normal combat, one side has fighters while the other does not follow these simple rules for air supremacy
Fighters may target tac or strat bombers
Tac bombers may target ground units, land or naval.
For both, targets must be chosen BEFORE any dice is rolled
NOTE: strat bombers have no bonus, they don’t need one

Also note that while you may achieve air supremacy at some point during a battle, your fighters and tac bombers do not have to choose their respective targets, but it must be decided BEFORE any dice is rolled for that particular round

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks,
you have your very own way of thinking out of the box. :-D

Always a surprise.

You leave me with a lot to think. :?
In addition, your solution is nearer what I left behind in the beginning of this tread: a more tactically oriented Air combat phase (like a SBR phase).

I have to ponder the respective value of both: more strategical or the other.

[baron Münchhausen]

Actually, I would not create a single round of air combat before regular combat begins.

IMO, it creates an unbalancing effect against aircrafts strategy.
If it was the case, the first roll of any planes could be a hit but not being taking in account.
Example: 3 attacking fighters roll “2” “3” “3”, result: no hit against defending planes.

But, in a regular round, it would be 3 hits.

Creating this special air phase make all planes attack preemptive AA strike.

While integrating it in the regular first round, it still be as a AA strike, but without preemptive effect.  So all planes can hit as a regular combat but some can still destroy them in the first round.

[baron Münchhausen]

Your suggestion help me think about specific role of fighters.

I would add an Air Superiority effect for fighters (different from Air Supremacy):

In the first round of battle, the side which have more fighters can now pick the aircraft casuality of his choice when any fighters roll “1”.

The other side still hit planes on “1” but the casuality is still selected by owning player.

I’m still pondering about TacB and StrB role (if any for them).

[Derek]

Tac bombers need something, they are rarely produced relative to fighters and strat bombers
How often are 1s rolled? 1 of 6 on average IMO
The benefits of being able to choose bombers and/or tanks outweigh the risks

I would also suggest letting tanks roll a 4 for each tac bomber present if air supremacy has been achieved, that is for each tac bomber one tank rolls at 4 instead of 3. Tac bombers do not change

This even further increases air buys and also gives tanks a buff which they need

We already have a round of combt befor normal combat (AAA) just add all planes to that round, everything hitting on 1s. Easy

Air supremacy is checked for each round of combat, before any dice are rolled for that round

These rules will magnify both fighters and tac bombers buys as well as tanks, and also promote a combined arms approach to purchases similar to artillery and infantry

You want enough fighters to achieve air supremacy, but also a good even amount of tac bombers and tanks to maximize air supremacy when you do achieve it

This kills multiple birds with a single stone
It should reduce somewhat the infantry/mech spam with sprinkles of artillery that we see now
It also indirectly buffs AAA as each AAA adds 3 more dice to the air battle in defense, and increases your chance of gaining control of the skies

[baron Münchhausen]

Just talking about TacB,
I find it strange the attack and defense value vs cost of this unit.
If 1 fighter A3D4M4C10 is the basis.
1 TacB A3D3M4C11.    Let’s find the error…

Based on this basic, fighter cost less and defend better. Who wants a TacB?
Of course, you must buy one fighter (10IPCs) or 1 tank (6 IPCs) to get the other bonus.

So to get A4D3  it cost 11+6 or 10= 17 or 21 IPCs.
Average for 1 unit:  A3.5/8.5 IPCs or A3.5/10.5 IPCs.
It lasts as long as you keep both units.
Loose your tank and you fall down to the base A3.

I think it explain a bit why TAcB is not that interesting in itself.

I read somewhere that defense is a bit favored in A&A. Attack may need some more aggressive unit…

Maybe if TacB was at the same price as fighter it could create a better incentive and be a match for fighter in A/D/cost ratio. For the same cost, you loose a good defense @4 for a D@3 but you may eventually gain @4.
HR TacB A3D3C10 with the same OOB bonus: +1A when paired with Tank or Fighter.

However, maybe my intuitive price evaluation of unit forget something by solely comparing with fighter…  Armor and Germany should be part of the equation…?

But the StratB A4M6 for 12 IPCs is also a temptation to not buy a poor A3M4 TacB…

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

Tac bombers need something, they are rarely produced relative to fighters and strat bombers

I would also suggest letting tanks roll a 4 for each tac bomber present if air supremacy has been achieved, that is for each tac bomber one tank rolls at 4 instead of 3. Tac bombers do not change
This even further increases air buys and also gives tanks a buff which they need

We already have a round of combt befor normal combat (AAA) just add all planes to that round, everything hitting on 1s. Easy

Air supremacy is checked for each round of combat, before any dice are rolled for that round

These rules will magnify both fighters and tac bombers buys as well as tanks, and also promote a combined arms approach to purchases similar to artillery and infantry

You want enough fighters to achieve air supremacy, but also a good even amount of tac bombers and tanks to maximize air supremacy when you do achieve it

This kills multiple birds with a single stone
It should reduce somewhat the infantry/mech spam with sprinkles of artillery that we see now
It also indirectly buffs AAA as each AAA adds 3 more dice to the air battle in defense, and increases your chance of gaining control of the skies

Very thoughtful ideas. I like them.
However my first impression is your HR change much more the balance.
I’m looking for just small changes.
I will come back on this.
You have some compelling reason like this one:

We already have a round of combt befor normal combat (AAA) just add all planes to that round, everything hitting on 1s. Easy

Thank you very much for your challenging ideas.