On the Existence of "God"

[Guest]

@cystic:

The “why” is the rub - the ache - the thing keeping us up at night. All science tells us is “to reproduce” or “because random chance dictated this long ago”.

I think that many people confuse the “how” and the “why”… Is “why does the sun go upevery morning” a valid “why”, or just a “how”? Is “why is the sun yellow” a valid “why”? …

And the “reproduce thing” … wasn’t that the bible ? Something like “go forth and multiply?” ;) … How mean especially to some snakes, they must cry, being adders :)

btw… don’t drink and derive ;)

[Guest]

is the Universe really THAT complicated? ???

i mean the thing is Vaster then i can imagine but the law of Gravity Covers alot and almost 50% of why things work the way they do. just because something is Vast doenst mean its Complicated.

and yes 50% may be a an exageration but what we dont understand now we understand through time and Research. look how far we came in 50 years eh ;) this is Mike btw

[Guest]

The next question of course would be “why does the law of gravity work?”
…
If you follow this path, you will come to more and more "why"s, just like the little child that ask this kind of questions. And of course, at some stage, you will end up with a “we don’t know (yet)”…
This can be critized as “science doesn’t have all answers”, but have a look how far we have gone: How good we have become at reducing these questions to some axioms or underlying principles…
Just ask “why does one side of a magnet attract one side and repulses the other side of a magnet?”… and i will answer: Because of the principle of conservation of charge and a minkowski-metric in our 4-dimensional universe…
This probably does not help you without further explanation, but it is close to most underlying principles.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

@cystic:

The “why” is the rub - the ache - the thing keeping us up at night. All science tells us is “to reproduce” or “because random chance dictated this long ago”.

I think that many people confuse the “how” and the “why”… Is “why does the sun go upevery morning” a valid “why”, or just a “how”? Is “why is the sun yellow” a valid “why”? …

And the “reproduce thing” … wasn’t that the bible ? Something like “go forth and multiply?” ;) … How mean especially to some snakes, they must cry, being adders :)

btw… don’t drink and derive ;)

ironically enough i’d had a couple beers, the last of my port and some wine before writing that . . . :D

[Janus]

has anyone read the series “The Animorphs”? its actually pretty good, even though it is aimed at young teens, and even though it fell off a cliff at the end. but anyway, it is quite unrelated to the topic, except in one aspect, and in one book, where im going to take an idea and apply it. There was a creature that often appeared in the book called the Ellimist. It was a seemingly divine being as it seemed to have limitless power. but in one book in the series, an explanation was given that i think has an application here. Someone asked about the Ellimist, and someone else gave a brief but excellent description. he said (not an exact quote) “I draw a person on a piece of paper, he has 2 dimensions, so we will call him a “flatty”. if i draw a box around him, he would be trapped forever, because he only knows 2 dimensions. if someone came along that existed in 3 dimensions, they could get him out of the box. but he only knows two, so he would not know what was going on. the 3d person would be able to do things the flatty would never understand, and had never dreamed of. so if the ellimist exists in 4 dimensions, he is able to do things we cannot comprehend, because we only know 3.” i think that if there is a being “god”, that it is more like this than some all powerful creature. like falk was saying earlier, there was no creator of the universe, it emerged or began. “god” would have been created afterwards, or emerged with the universe, and would only exist in more dimensions then we, and so is not divine or all mighty, but simply a more complex being that exists in ways we cannot understand. it is therefore concievable that if there is a god, then there is some being that exists in more ways even than the god we know, and is like a “god” to our god. if any of that made any sense at all.

Emugod, your points have some validity to them, but i reject the concept of mathematical impossibility. true, some things have so low a probability that it is logically impossible. but no matter how low the probability of something, there still exists a possibilty for it, and therefore could happen. your raindrops example is a good one. the likelihood of a shaekesperian sonnet being written on a typewriter by rain is so low, it seems impossible, but the randomness of the rain means that it could happen, even if it was never recorded in your lifetime.

[cystic crypt]

over an infinite amount of time, given an infinite amount of rain and an infinite amount of paper, it is a mathematical certainty that eventually all the great works would be typed out an infinite number of times with precision . . . (not to shoot down a creationist theory but . . . i think it’s a cute idea).

[Guest]

CC, i like that…
would you accept the proof that god does not exists, because you can find the sentence “god does not exist” in every language, in ASCII and binary code, in the numbers pi, sqrt(2), sqrt(3), e and all sums and differences of these numbers? … that just must mean something :)…
It also says “CC is wrong in some things” in there ;)

[NatFedMike]

u might be able to get those great works in about a year of Rain, i mean u can get it in 3 seconds but like infinite is not that necissary

[Guest]

It’s necessary for unity probability.

[NatFedMike]

k

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

CC, i like that…
would you accept the proof that god does not exists, because you can find the sentence “god does not exist” in every language, in ASCII and binary code, in the numbers pi, sqrt(2), sqrt(3), e and all sums and differences of these numbers? … that just must mean something :)…
It also says “CC is wrong in some things” in there ;)

I’m pretty sure that you could prolly find stuff like “God is alive and waiting to meet with F_alk and have a discussion with him/her regarding the error of his/her ways” too . . . :)

[Guest]

Absolutely, but you will also find the same sentence with the addition that god agrees wholeheartedly with me :)

[thesquire]

hello.
First of all, im surprised that this discussion hasnt yet lead to a flame war, respect to that!
Of course i dont have an answer to the question does god exist or does he not.
i just wanna add my two cents and tell my not-so-little story about my experience with god. read it or dont, its up to you. excuse mistakes, im after all, german.
im 21 years old and from germany. a few years ago i met the girl that i will be soon marrying on the internet. shes from usa, and up to now ive been there visiting quite alot of times. (for those thinking about nerds and internet relationships, it all worked out naturally, no “lets be together now” in front of the computer monitor)
my fiances family happens to be christians, and so am i now.
but it wasnt always like that. i hated religion. faith was a good thing for me, but i deeply hated any kind of religion. with a passion. alot. point made.
being from germany i grew up with catholic churches and classes at school. , which is probably the reason i so hated it. i never even read the bible.
back to my fiance. whenever i was there, we went to church every sunday. it made me sick, sometimes literally. i couldnt stand it, just went because it were a few more hours i could spend with her before i had to go back to germany.
not until lately, something changed tho. i could feel something during church, call it the holy spirit, call it what u want. and it didnt make me as sick anymore. quite the opposite actually, i was wondering, became curious, wanted to know more about it. so i talked to the preacher. hes pretty cool, not much older than i am, and he was a great help to me.
we read the bible, whenever i had questions i asked, and he answered. he gave me tons of books and videos and whatnot which i didnt/couldnt all read/watch.
i started enjoying church, not the singing part, but him preaching, it was awesome. i just wanted to know more, deal with it since i never had before.
im not much of a feeling person, im more the logical type, so he gave me some books on that topic that id like to recommend to everyone here, they are really good books in my opinion and helped me make alot more sense to the mistery called god and jesus.

one is called “the case for christ” by Lee Strobel, i guess you could look it up on amazon for more details. it was like made for me and answered alot of questions and also things i hadnt thot about before.

then, science and faith were never really a contradiction for me. it all fit, god made it how it is now. (ive always been a science person, had physics advanced class [“leistungskurs” for all the germans here] and enjoyed it!)
then i thot about it some more and the creation of the world kinda seemed to make a few problems here, evolution vs god made it all.
thus i read another book, which i already had but never read before.
its called “the evolution of a creationist” by jobe martin. it wasnt as good as the case for christ, not as clearly written , and i was also looking for more “neutral” material on that issue, thus the “isnt god great!” parts of that book werent really to my liking. nevertheless, filtering out all the information, it was pretty interesting! i sure will look further into that matter, get a few more books on that topic, but that one got me started., it explained it pretty well for me.
i think amazon could provide a more detailed description of that book.

right now im reading “my utmost for his highest” by oswald chamber and another devotional bible study book, and it helps me to get to know more.
i like my new-found faith, although its harder to do than i thought it would be.
this is only my story, no “be more open-minded” or “do this do that” talk, its ur decision what u do with it. being more open-minded helped me and looking back i realized how blind i was before.

again, im glad this didnt become a flame war like it does most of the times.
this said, keep on posting!
.Christoph

[Guest]

Well, thesquire, that is an interesting story. Im not positive whether your point had anything to do with why you suddenly were interested in religion and excited about it, or if it was more about the books, but I will address it anyway. I think, that it had nothing to do with anything other than your fiance. I think what happened was a kind of association, your fiance went to church, and you went to spend time with her. since you went more and more, you began to like it, and possibly associate it in your mind (subconciously) with her, so that it became a pleasant, and even entertaining or enjoyable experience.

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

Well, thesquire, that is an interesting story. Im not positive whether your point had anything to do with why you suddenly were interested in religion and excited about it, or if it was more about the books, but I will address it anyway. I think, that it had nothing to do with anything other than your fiance. I think what happened was a kind of association, your fiance went to church, and you went to spend time with her. since you went more and more, you began to like it, and possibly associate it in your mind (subconciously) with her, so that it became a pleasant, and even entertaining or enjoyable experience.

If my g/f made me go to anything it would piss me off even more. Especially if it was something i had hated since childhood for whatever reason.

[thesquire]

no she didnt make me, lots of times i just didnt go. but what was i supposed to do, she had her point, our time was limited, so i just took the bitter pill and went, and believe me, it did make me mad, not at her, guess at life in general to make me suffer that , or ironically maybe at god :D

and it took me about 2 years to finally “like” church enough to find out more about it.
so ya, you might say its my fiances “fault” that i now believe in god, but i dont see it negativly at all. and why did it take 2 years for me? it just changed like that, no “well this week it was a little better”, one day i started feeling the holy spirit and then it started.

i dont really know what my point was, guess just writing my story, cos i cant convince anyone if he/she doesnt want to get convinced. those two books (3 actually) helped a great deal.
the reason i hated it was 1. the catholic church and 2. my lack of knowledge about god/bible/jesus/etc. that is, had i known more i probly wouldnt have hated it ,as you can see now. most ppl wont even touch a bible and still they rant about how stupid believing in god is. i say why not learn a little more about it, what do u have to lose?
.christoph

[Field Marshal]

I’ve seen that Protestant services are more of a celebration of God and life. Alot of singing and such. Catholic services deal with ritual and ceremony. The sermons however, do present a moral lesson or a New Testament event.
thesquire- Is your fiance’ Catholic or Protestant? A digruntled Catholic moving to a Protestant arena may enjoy Church more…

[thesquire]

I’ve seen that Protestant services are more of a celebration of God and life. Alot of singing and such. Catholic services deal with ritual and ceremony. The sermons however, do present a moral lesson or a New Testament event.

yeah thats what i noticed too, and thats what made me change. im “evangelisch”, which is protestant, in germany, been baptized too and all, but at school and pretty much everytime i dealt with it it was catholic (i was on a catholic school).
my fiance and her family are going to the baptist church and it is alooot different from catholic, not as much ritual and ceremony.
i like that and i think if it were more like that here in germany, alot more people would actually go to church.
.Christoph

[Field Marshal]

The Protestant Reformation was born in Germany, but it sounds like you may have grown up in a strong Catholic area anyway. Where I grew up in New Jersey was like that as well. If you are still searching for a more agreeable Christian group to join, Germany should have various groups such as the Lutherans or Calvinists to check out hopefully within a local area…

[thesquire]

no atually both my parents didnt raise me into any religion , altho i was baptised protestant. i went to church on christmas (catholic) and i went to a catholic private school, with religion class until year 13.
the only thing i did “protestant” was catuchemen(spelling?) classes when i was like 14,they were protestant (and i liked it alot better already than catholic, but still not enough), and i only did that cos of the money u got afterwards from all ur relatives.