• Don’t get me wrong Moses, I think a better world can be built with socialistic ideas involved. However, the only society I can imagine which could support full Communism is a society which would not need it.

    If I at all believed that COmmunism was feasible Moses, I would be waving the hammer and sickle right beside you. However, I am a pragmatic idealist, and I know that it could not work.


  • @cystic:

    @HortenFlyingWing:

    “What has more government centralization brought to the United States? Less than 2 percent of Americans are farmers, yet the Department of Agriculture adds still more bureaucrats. Before 1950, the government largely stayed out of the housing business. Now we have housing projects in all of our major cities, and the government, an absentee landlord, couldn’t care less. The private sector can build housing more cheaply, with an incentive to maintain the property and screen tenants. During the 1980s, the “decade of greed,” charitable contributions by corporations and private citizens increased by at least 30 percent. Why? People had more disposable income, paid fewer taxes, and therefore gave more away. Americans are among the most generous people on Earth. But people want their money to go to people and organizations that they choose and trust.”

    America went trillions in debt in the 80s, and social spending and beauracracy went UP! Regan was the biggest damn liberal of them all, but he cut taxes with money that didn’t exist. Regan won us the cold war by possibly pushing the USSR over the edge (though they were going that way to begin with), but he increased social spending and with it the middle class’s share of wealth (but not wealth itself) declined.

    weird how Canadians follow Americans. This sounds just like Mulrooney in the 80’s ('cept for that whole “winning the cold war” bit. I think everyone ultimately “won” the cold war.

    huh???

    "Hopefully, capitalism hasn’t degenerated the people that far. "

    You don’t get it moses, it isn’t capitalism that “degenerated” people, it is unrelated greed.


  • @yourbuttocks:

    Don’t get me wrong Moses, I think a better world can be built with socialistic ideas involved. However, the only society I can imagine which could support full Communism is a society which would not need it.

    If I at all believed that COmmunism was feasible Moses, I would be waving the hammer and sickle right beside you. However, I am a pragmatic idealist, and I know that it could not work.

    exactly.

    “Communism does not require a perfect world but a unified one. If People can be perfect, but if they’re not willing cooperate, then what’s the use of communism?”

    People can cooperate and be nice and work together WITHOUT COMMUNISM. PEOPLE CHOOSE NOT TO, NOT BECAUSE OF CAPITALISM, BUT BECAUSE THEY CARE MORE ABOUT THEMSELVES.


  • @HortenFlyingWing:

    @yourbuttocks:

    Don’t get me wrong Moses, I think a better world can be built with socialistic ideas involved. However, the only society I can imagine which could support full Communism is a society which would not need it.

    If I at all believed that COmmunism was feasible Moses, I would be waving the hammer and sickle right beside you. However, I am a pragmatic idealist, and I know that it could not work.

    exactly.

    “Communism does not require a perfect world but a unified one. If People can be perfect, but if they’re not willing cooperate, then what’s the use of communism?”

    People can cooperate and be nice and work together WITHOUT COMMUNISM. PEOPLE CHOOSE NOT TO, NOT BECAUSE OF CAPITALISM, BUT BECAUSE THEY CARE MORE ABOUT THEMSELVES.

    Exactly :D


  • “You don’t get it moses, it isn’t capitalism that “degenerated” people, it is unrelated greed”

    Then communism will still work :wink: . It’s true that greed was around before the invention of the capitalist system, but capitalist presents so many more ways in which to promote greed and to accelerate its growth. This has become so grotesque that greed is actually embraced, rather then rejected.

    “People can cooperate and be nice and work together WITHOUT COMMUNISM. PEOPLE CHOOSE NOT TO, NOT BECAUSE OF CAPITALISM, BUT BECAUSE THEY CARE MORE ABOUT THEMSELVES.”

    So you would care no more for a love one or a best friend? However, communism naturally benefits almost everyone, yourself included.


  • You think in Communistic system greed disapears. A new upper class is created out of the party/government just like capitalism, except no upward mobility.


  • A New upperclass is NOT created. Elected Representatives will be at the same status as everyone else before they were elected and after they finish their term.


  • “You think in Communistic system greed disapears. A new upper class is created out of the party/government just like capitalism, except no upward mobility.”

    False, where did I ever say this? In fact, I mentioned several times that even under communism, greed will not be eliminated. And I’ll even say it again if you want me too. What we can do is keep greed at a minimum and do our best to submerge it, unlike in capitalism were is encouraged (both directly and indirectly). Ditto what Yanny said on your “new upper class.”


  • @F_alk:

    @yourbuttocks:

    You think in Communistic system greed disapears. A new upper class is created out of the party/government just like capitalism, except no upward mobility.

    I think it would have as much upwards mobility as a capitalist system. It’s just different “virtues” that you need.

    Not true, the buck buys you respect. Where can you get that in a communist society where you are gifted at farming so you have to farm? There is upwards mobility, I have seen it. Don’t tell me there is not…maybe not in Germany though.

    "Then communism will still work . It’s true that greed was around before the invention of the capitalist system, but capitalist presents so many more ways in which to promote greed and to accelerate its growth. This has become so grotesque that greed is actually embraced, rather then rejected. "

    Communism promotes Greed, Jelousy, and Envy just the same. If not more laziness and greed. It promotes people working hard, correct? In a school, you would have to study hard to not do physical labor, correct? There is already competition to do better than others…and if you decide to sit back and do nothing, whats stopping others?

    “So you would care no more for a love one or a best friend? However, communism naturally benefits almost everyone, yourself included.”

    I would rather save my Dad’s life than yours. I would rather save your’s than Joey Bishops (because i never wrote to him.) Our society brought me up to care about the people more who you know more. An ideal society would have everyone care for everyone. Thatneeds to be done before Communism even starts, and just starting that up isn’t worth the consequences.


  • @Yanny:

    A New upperclass is NOT created. Elected Representatives will be at the same status as everyone else before they were elected and after they finish their term.

    but they have more power, authority, and influence. They can work together, and get nicer cars and food.

    Hey we elect president bush and he ups his salary! He’s equal though…


  • @TG:

    “You think in Communistic system greed disapears. A new upper class is created out of the party/government just like capitalism, except no upward mobility.”

    False, where did I ever say this? In fact, I mentioned several times that even under communism, greed will not be eliminated. And I’ll even say it again if you want me too. What we can do is keep greed at a minimum and do our best to submerge it, unlike in capitalism were is encouraged (both directly and indirectly). Ditto what Yanny said on your “new upper class.”

    but greed is encouraged both directly and indirectly by communsim as well.


  • I would say so. Is there a need for desire? Yes. A need for lavish desire? I’m not to sure about that…


  • @F_alk:

    @HortenFlyingWing:

    @Yanny:

    A New upperclass is NOT created. Elected Representatives will be at the same status as everyone else before they were elected and after they finish their term.

    but they have more power, authority, and influence. They can work together, and get nicer cars and food.

    @HortenFlyingWing:

    @F_alk:

    I think it would have as much upwards mobility as a capitalist system. It’s just different “virtues” that you need.

    Not true, the buck buys you respect. Where can you get that in a communist society where you are gifted at farming so you have to farm?

    So, the buck buys you respect.
    Power, authority and influence don’t.
    Please eplain this to me, it sounds so awfully paradox.

    The thing that you mention in the upper posting here is what i meant with “mobility and different virtues”. Instead of money the mobility comes from maybe graduating from the party’s elite university instead of Yale etc.

    exactly what i’ve been talking about. All communism does is exchanges a cash-based currency for something else. “Ahhh . . . you are a faithful (yet lazy, stupid, etc.) member of the party, eh comrade? Here’s a comfortable job with x, y, and z perks. If you do produce, if you don’t produce - no difference, you get no reward aside from knowing that you’ve marginally bettered or worsened the lives of some other citizens.”


  • You are forgetting something, comrade. Even with those “Elected” from the Communist Party (or any other depending on the FW of the people), they still have to maintain normal jobs as would anyone else. Holding a position of office is in itself a “Privilege” (in the sense that you can be recalled at anytime), not a granted. Also, those “faithful” are not often the “lazy” people you think - they work hard to show their faithfulness in communism.


  • @TG:

    You are forgetting something, comrade. Even with those “Elected” from the Communist Party (or any other depending on the FW of the people), they still have to maintain normal jobs as would anyone else. Holding a position of office is in itself a “Privilege” (in the sense that you can be recalled at anytime), not a granted. Also, those “faithful” are not often the “lazy” people you think - they work hard to show their faithfulness in communism.

    supposing, of course, that they really buy into communism, and are not just giving lip service to it in order for advancement, perks, etc.

    The thing about capitalism is those that it works for really believe in it (and those that it does not work for of course tend more towards socialism/communism etc.)


  • The thing about capitalism is those that it works for really believe in it (and those that it does not work for of course tend more towards socialism/communism etc.)

    Completly disagree, those “leftish intellectual” (they are not rare) are in a great part disadvantage by these left wing mesure. I vote for Jospin even if i knew that i would loose money with him (compared to Chirac).


  • “supposing, of course, that they really buy into communism, and are not just giving lip service to it in order for advancement, perks, etc.”

    How far can giving “lip service” get you before there’s no one left to give lip service to? “Who watches the watchmen?” :o

    “Completly disagree, those “leftish intellectual” (they are not rare) are in a great part disadvantage by these left wing mesure. I vote for Jospin even if i knew that i would loose money with him (compared to Chirac).”

    FinsterniS, how would you define a “leftish intellectual?”


  • Seeing this as a perfect place to answer YB’s questions in the previous United Nations thread, I will try to answer his misconceptions on Communism.

    Here is the original message as posted:

    Moses(U.S.), Fisternis(Europe), Ghoul(Canada), Communism cannot work… If you take incentives out of work, then people do crappy ass jobs. Plus central planning/command economies are bad because some decisions have to be so decentralized they have to be made by individual people (Consumers) These are the problems are Communist countries get tripped up on.

    False! First of all, I like to contest you view that “If you take incentives out of work, then people do crappy ass jobs.”

    Now many people (especially those in the capitalistic machine) believe that rewards promote better performance. However, (as reported by the Boston Globe) a growing body of research suggests that this law is not nearly as ironclad as was once thought. Psychologists have been finding that rewards can lower performance levels, especially when the performance involves creativity. A related series of studies shows that intrinsic interest in a task - the sense that something is worth doing for its own sake - typically declines when someone is rewarded for doing it. For example, if a reward - money, awards, or winning a contest - comes to be seen as the reason one is engaging in an activity, that activity will be viewed as less enjoyable in its own right.

    I a related experiment, 72 creative writers at Brandeis and at Boston
    University were told to write poetry. Some students then were given a list of extrinsic (external) reasons for writing, such as impressing teachers,
    making money and getting into graduate school, and were asked to think
    about their own writing with respect to these reasons. Others were
    given a list of intrinsic reasons: the enjoyment of playing with
    words, satisfaction from self-expression, and so forth. A third group
    was not given any list. All were then asked to do more writing.

    The results were clear. Students given the extrinsic reasons not only
    wrote less creatively than the others, as judged by 12 independent
    poets, but the quality of their work dropped significantly. It was found that “Rewards have this destructive effect primarily with creative
    tasks, including higher-level problem-solving. The more complex the
    activity, the more it’s hurt by extrinsic reward."

    With the exception of some behaviorists who doubt the very existence of intrinsic motivation, these conclusions are now widely accepted among psychologists. Taken together, they suggest we may unwittingly be squelching interest and discouraging innovation among workers, students, and artists.

    The recognition that rewards can have counter-productive effects is based on a variety of studies, which have come up with such findings as these: Young children who are rewarded for drawing are less likely to draw on their own that are children who draw just for the fun of it. Teenagers offered rewards for playing word games enjoy the games less and do not do as well as those who play with no rewards. Employees who are praised for meeting a manager’s expectations suffer a drop in motivation.

    Plus central planning/command economies are bad because some decisions have to be so decentralized they have to be made by individual people (Consumers)

    This statement implies you have relatively little idea of what the advances in communism today. In contemporary, self-organizing communism, the decisions are made by the people using bottom-up planning (which leads to more democratic decisions by the masses). This way a high-synergy complex adaptive system can be achieved without need for a highly planned centralized government. I have discussed this before with cooperative anarchy - people working together without a formal central authority.

    With the coming of the 21st Century Information War, there does not have to be a need for a single, authoritative center. The overhead of the economy can revolve around a large number of groups or units, independent or semi-independent from one another. They would then perform analysis of the economy and the making of recommendations, coming to a loose consensus on what plans to implement. Now sometimes top-down methods are necessary (which YB is speaking of, I think), but we should first consider ways of accomplishing as much as possible without resort it. Bottom down planning includes much more parallelity, allowing greater brainpower to be applied to the problem. This way more knowledge and experience are gained.


  • In the Soviet Union, did the class system disapear? NO! It became much more Ironclad than in Capitalist countries.


  • The Soviet Union was a poor example of a communism. Instead of small groups of people organizing their economy, the Goverment tried to do it. It doesn’t work that way. A communism must be democratic to work.

    Due to the post WWII and present day envirment, it is currently impossible for a democratic communism to exist. The United States will involve itself in everything, and will always be sure to have a capitalism put in place. Therefore, the first Communism will be the US itself.

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