One last time: LL is a different game. Its not Axis and Allies.
Most of your analysis makes sense, except you are simply biased. Why would risk management be the aspect that defines A&A? Imho, it is not. To me, A&A is defined by its strategic character, giving you the feeling like you are a WW2 general trying to outwit the enemy. The method of getting battles resolved is simply less important to me. I would even be fine with a no luck system since this would not take away the strategic aspect of the game. If you really think risk management is the “soul” of A&A, go poker.
It changes the nature of the strategy because you can pinpoint exactly how many units each battle will need to take a territory or successfully strafe an opponents stack.
Change the word “strategy” by “tactics” and I’ll agree. The strategies in LL are EXACTLY the same as in ADS. Only some tactical tricks are not.
Or, you can stretch it. The player is forced to way the pros and cons of both plays. In LL, it is dumbed down.
The problem is that “stretching it” is the optimal way of playing A&A…
Btw, did you ever try LL?
The problem is that “stretching it” is the optimal way of playing A&A…
Btw, did you ever try LL?
I have played a fair deal of both versions. I don’t think it is biased of me to call LL not A&A, there is no mention of playing by such a system in the rules, and it is a significant characteristic.
I would also like to mention again that determining the best player more often is not the only measure of whether a game system is better than another. Sometimes for certain ideas to be expressed chaotic elements must play a roll.
Lastly, “stretching it” is often not the right play in A&A. Sometimes it is highly debatable at a minimum(such as the raging debate over Egypt)
There is also no mention of playing w/o tech in AAR and Classic. There is also no mention of bids, neither in AAR, Classic and AA50.
“Chatic elements”, in the context it is used here, means luck and randomness.
I see A&A as modern variant of chess. Its not the same, but there are similarities. Imo chess should be an ideal for many boardgames. Its simple, its easy to learn, its hard to master against good players, its very popular, have been known for thousands of years. Chess is also an abstraction of reality, as medieval king vs king, emperor vs emperor etc.
If I’m playing in a ladder or league or just casual games, I have the same approach to A&A as I would if I played chess. I also have the same “state of mind”. Its a competition, its a struggle. Why play such a game if choices are less important?
@Subotai:
There is also no mention of playing w/o tech in AAR and Classic. There is also no mention of bids, neither in AAR, Classic and AA50.
“Chatic elements”, in the context it is used here, means luck and randomness.
I see A&A as modern variant of chess. Its not the same, but there are similarities. Imo chess should be an ideal for many boardgames. Its simple, its easy to learn, its hard to master against good players, its very popular, have been known for thousands of years. Chess is also an abstraction of reality, as medieval king vs king, emperor vs emperor etc.
If I’m playing in a ladder or league or just casual games, I have the same approach to A&A as I would if I played chess. I also have the same “state of mind”. Its a competition, its a struggle. Why play such a game if choices are less important?
First a little background about myself. I have played competitive chess for about 15 years, own north of 200 books on the subject, work for a chess site, count grandmasters amoung friends.
All that said, I like A&A becuase it isn’t chess. It is a separate game. Your argument that A&A (and apparently other games) should be as much like chess as possible holds little weight. Poker is a fascinating game, and the fact that “luck” often determines the winner completely misses the point. What a good poker player takes satisfaction in is the knowledge that they made good descisions, and the result is beside the point. Why not apply the same attitude to A&A?
Ok here is the thing, it all depends what you want out of the game.
Dice players want a more ‘beer and pretzels’ type game, where the chaotic elements are seen as a positive as it keeps the game ‘interesting’ and more ‘fun’. Kind of a casual serious game.
LL players want the pure competition, minimized chaotic elements, where risk management is a factor, but luck does not win the game. They want the satisfaction of winning or loosing based soley upon there decisions, not the dice.
Neither is correct or incorrect. If i devised a variant chess where each piece has an attack and defense value and they rolled dice when you tried to take another players piece to add chaos and risk management that would not make it the ‘wrong’ way to play, as the correct way to play a game is however you have fun with it.
Actually that would be interesting, use a d6, pawns attack and defend on a 1/2, knights like original armor 3/2, etc. Do i take the players rook with my queen as I have a good chance of winning AND killing his pawn that he tries to take me with? Might be fun, might not be the original intent, but is NOT the wrong way to play the game.
Ok here is the thing, it all depends what you want out of the game.
Dice players want a more ‘beer and pretzels’ type game, where the chaotic elements are seen as a positive as it keeps the game ‘interesting’ and more ‘fun’. Kind of a casual serious game.
i’m a dice player, and dont consider axis to be beer and pretzels at all. the only advantage i see in LL is that it is more predictable. the disavantages of LL include the dumbing down of several core elements.
I guess different people see different matters in games. When I see A&A, I see “chess”. For me, A&A is a strategic war game. I like A&A b/c its not poker…also, I think poker players who wins a lot, take much satisfaction in winning lots of money :wink:
Larry Harris never meant that A&A should be like poker. I guess L.H. thought dice should simulate the fog of war. Imo it does not. Dice is more like a blind man in a dark room, then the fog of war. If played any game where I won or lost money, then the money would be all that mattered, at least if it was lots of money to win or lose.
A&A is not about money.
About the poker analogy, in poker you can decide how much to bet. You don’t have to bet at all. If you’re playing A&A you bet and gamble even if you don’t do anything, and whatever decisions are made during a game, will affect chances of winning or losing. If you fold in A&A you concede. In A&A not betting or not calling is same as if you don’t attack and only retreat, you will certainly lose. Defensive play in poker can result in losing $10 instead of $5000. In A&A you can only be defensive up to a certain point, and when your capital is surrounded its too late to change tactics. There are choices in poker which are not available in A&A.
Chess is a board game, like A&A. Poker is a card game, unlike A&A. Chess was made for someone who couldn’t live w/o war. Chess is more popular than A&A. Why not apply the same attitude to A&A as chess?
@Subotai:
I Defensive play in poker can result in losing $10 instead of $5000. In A&A you can only be defensive up to a certain point, and when your capital is surrounded its too late to change tactics. There are choices in poker which are not available in A&A.
In poker, you have the antis or blinds. Defensive play can only be applied to “a point” in poker as well, or you lose all your money, just slower.
Chess is a board game, like A&A. Poker is a card game, unlike A&A. Chess was made for someone who couldn’t live w/o war. Chess is more popular than A&A. Why not apply the same attitude to A&A as chess?
I don;t see how popularity enters into it. Chess is an anceint game and has had thousands of years to mature and spread itself. While i consider chess to be a magnificent game only equaled by Go, it expresses different ideas than axis and allies.
While i consider chess to be a magnificent game
Now, we’re getting somewhere.
Chess is a much better ideal for modern strategy games then poker. Some players invented their own LL system similar to the current LL system also when playing the boardgame f2f, even if it’s much easier to change combat system when using software.
For me A&A is a 1vs1 game, although I could possibly play against 2 players, I don’t play team games anymore. I used to, but not anymore…
While I consider poker to be a modern and fun game, it expresses different ideas than A&A… :lol: :-D :-P
Ok i’m sorry if you think that playing with ‘dice’ adds more strategy to the game when I will outplay my opponent for 7 rounds but they take Moscow when they had 10% odds according to the calc with 50% of there army left after the attack, i’m sorry but I completely disagree. Or if I win because my US BB at pearl took down 4 figs and a destroyer, etc, etc. I dont see how that ‘adds’ to the game.
But honestly I just don’t see why some people feel the way they play is the ‘correct’ way to play. Its a game. Do you have fun playing your way? If yes, congratulations you win.
What a good poker player takes satisfaction in is the knowledge that they made good descisions, and the result is beside the point. Why not apply the same attitude to A&A?
Hmm, interesting. I do like knowing I made good decisions be it in poker, chess or A&A. That’s indeed why I play all these games (though I’m not going to risk a lot of money with poker ;) ). However, when playing chess, I’m absolutely sure that making good decisions will win/draw me the game against an equal player. In poker I know that making good decisions will also win/draw (as in: not loose a lot in an evening) me the game. In A&A however, this is not the case. You can play a whole night of A&A, only to see all your good decisions smashed by 1 lousy AA. And there’s no way of saying “Allright, I lost because of bad luck, let’s play another one quickly and forget about this” like you can in poker. Which is why, for me, I try to enjoy every game by playing LL, simply because the risk of ruining a game / an evening by crazy dice is non-existent.
It’s the human brain: nobody likes to loose undeserved, and the best way to remove this feeling is by simply playing another game and trying to win again (though a 10 year course on Zen might help too :roll:), which unfortunately is impossible in A&A.
(on a sidenote: playing competitively is also a reason to go LL, but that’s besides the “casual game” you’re talking about)
Well said HolKann
I guess both sides just need to accept that there is a difference of opinion and leave it at that
I personally don’t like LL, as in the real war there were gambles against overwhelming odds that prevailed. Using dice gives you that opportunity. I don’t think Patton was going on statistics when he sent the 94th Ghost Corp into the Siegrfried Line in March of '45. The Ghost Corp primarily of infantry and light artillery withstood the barrage of a whole Panzer division and managed to reach the Rhine!
In all the the 94th took out 3 enemy divisions, and took 20,000 prisoners.
This is a very interesting conversation. I never had the chance of using LL, but then again I also never have played a game of Axis and Allies through the forums. I think I would prefer using dice. I love to overcome some horrid rolls but still come out because of my overall strategy. I agree LL is good to eliminate poor strategies. I can also understand the side that would like to take more of the randomness out of the game. It is very fortunate there is a system in place that makes the game enjoyable and can afford players that luxury.
One day I will build up enough courage to stake my chances in a forums game and from there I possibly will try a LL some time!
One day I will build up enough courage to stake my chances in a forums game and from there I possibly will try a LL some time!
Go ahead and try a forum game. I was on these boards for more than a year before I tried it, and I was quite pleasantly surprised at how easy it was. Also, I did have a couple of teachers for my first 2 games, namely Holkann and Perry, who graciously helped me take my first faltering PBF (play by forum) steps. My hat’s off to them and to all of those who help teach the first-timers how to play and expand our player base.
For the ADS (What exactly does that mean anyway?) vs LL discussion, it seems that many people who prefer to play ADS (myself included), prefer to do so NOT for those times of taking Moscow in a last-gasp 10% chance-of-winning-attack, but specifically FOR all of those times of knowing that if your opponent wants to win all of his attacks, then he had better send better than average forces to the battle, and that is how real warfare was usually conducted, by generals trying to find the weak point in the enemys defenses and attacking, but also planning to hold what was just captured against the defender’s counter-attack.
That said, I do prefer ADS to LL, but maybe there is a happy median. I mean, as was already stated above, I really don’t believe that anyone who plays ADS, really enjoys getting diced hard, or really enjoys winning the games just because of an opponent’s HORRIBLY BAD LUCK with the dice. One does want to win as a result of one’s own gameplay, and not soley because of incredibly good or incredibly bad dice.
I will spend some time thinking about it, and perhaps some others can as well, to see if a better dice sytem can be come up with which would satisfy most of the ADS and the LL players, although I do understand that one can NEVER please everyone.
Speeding the things is the only I like about LL. I have a friend who ever roll dices one at the same time, even in 20+ units battles :-P But maybe even in LL he would still be slow because of the calculations :cry:
I believe ADS stands for “Automated Dice Server” or something similar
I like the analogy of ADS compared to poker. In both games, luck plays a part in ultimately determining who wins and who loses. However, a seasoned player understands this, and makes decisions by weighing the risks involved in each action. Also, in both cases, you can outplay your opponent and still lose the game. I don’t have a problem with that because that is the nature of the game. The outcome of who wins or who loses does not necessarily determine who is the more skilled player in these games. But that is part of what makes the game interesting, and IMO more appealing to a wider audience.
I like the analogy of ADS compared to poker. In both games, luck plays a part in ultimately determining who wins and who loses. However, a seasoned player understands this, and makes decisions by weighing the risks involved in each action. Also, in both cases, you can outplay your opponent and still lose the game. I don’t have a problem with that because that is the nature of the game.
That is my position in a nutshell.
What does irk me, is this elitist attitude amongst some LLers who believe that those who play dice are a bunch of newbs who can only win by fluking out, and that dice is somehow less serious. I accept that my preference for dice is just that, a preference, but my preference is not for crazy dice variance, but for ideas that can only be expressed with such variance as a potential.
