The big question, what religion are you?

[Yanny]

there is no proof that there is a God, therefore there is none, and since i am right, then i am right"

CC, your a doctor. I know this isn’t your field, but think about this hypothetically. Your in a lab and you perform some tests on a lab rat or something. The tests show that A, B, and C exist. There is no test for D. Does the lab rat have D?

[APolaris]

Yanny, he was responding to a previous statement by Janus1.

[Yanny]

I understand that. But I’m trying to turn a back and forth arguement into one of more substance.

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

takes one to know one.

good comeback. really.

and seriously - this is the only argument i’ve seen you play on the God debate

then you havent been paying attention. also, this debate wasnt about god’s existance, but more specifically religious validity and evolution vs. creationism. i already posted my argument on evolution vs. creationism. ive already posted on other threads numerous arguments about the existence of god, which go beyond (there is none, im right and you are wrong). i post that often, but if you cant see the joke, than apparently your “excellent” canadian education isnt as good as you like to make us “USies” think.

geee . . . i guess you can’t teach humor, eh?

[cystic crypt]

@Yanny:

there is no proof that there is a God, therefore there is none, and since i am right, then i am right"

CC, your a doctor. I know this isn’t your field, but think about this hypothetically. Your in a lab and you perform some tests on a lab rat or something. The tests show that A, B, and C exist. There is no test for D. Does the lab rat have D?

the rat MAY have D.
In fact, the results of A, B, and C may even suggest the presence of D. Naturally without a confirmatory test, this is impossible to prove.

[Guest]

Here’s a better question how do you know you have faith? How do you know you really have it, and what’s more do you accept your faith as blind that is without reason, in which case how can you be sure your faith is real and not just wishful thinking. Or on the contrary can faith be rational and therefore justified?

[Janus1]

funny, CC, how all your insults and elitism becomes humor when pointed out… :roll: . whatever, im done with this personal issues crap. lets get back to the topic.

id be interested to know why each person believes in god. were you just raised that way, and grew accustomed to it? or did something happen to make you believe?

for me, i was never raised religious. we went to church on christmas and easter, but that was it. for awhile, i didnt know what i believed, and just thought i believed in god (or did, but half-heartedly, whatever) then eventually (8th grade maybe? 9th? im not sure when) i realized i did not believe in god, and indeed, the very notion of god seemed absurd to me. and now im an atheist.

for a lot of people, i think the way their faith goes is almost entirely dependant on their upbringing. if they were raised with church, theyll believe, just because. if they werent, then they wont. i think thats more common than people actually having faith or not for real reasons, other than custom.

[Guest]

@tiger_tank2:

…Just accept the truth for a change! How could you be right? You have yet to bring forth any facts pertaining to the issue. little kids in … school is not a pertinate issue to gripe about. Why don’t you bring some facts into play? …

Mind if i tell you:
Just accept the truth for a change! How could you be right? You have yet to bring forth any facts pertaining to the issue. little kids in … school is not a pertinate issue to gripe about. Why don’t you bring some facts into play?

Oh, and btw, you were the one to start with the “kids in school” thing ;)

[Guest]

if they were raised with church, theyll believe, just because. if they werent, then they wont. i think thats more common than people actually having faith or not for real reasons, other than custom.

So you’re saying all faith is based on obedience to an authority? But doesn’t the whole notion of free will tell us that God gives us a choice to believe or not. Here’s a better question could an atheist that is such out of misdirected anger towards god ala Joab actually still have faith in said God, but the most pious of men lack faith. That is does just going through the motions mean you have faith. And what is piety anyway?

[Guest]

@AgentSmith:

So you’re saying all faith is based on obedience to an authority?

He doesn’t. He said it’s more common, there was no “all” in his post.

Here’s a better question could an atheist that is such out of misdirected anger towards god ala Joab actually still have faith in said God, but the most pious of men lack faith. That is does just going through the motions mean you have faith.

I am not sure what you want to say … but (according to the bible) you can be the “holiest” man on earth, yet if you don’t believe in god, you are going to hell. Whereas, you could be a murdering madman, as long as you accept christ as your savior (say on your deathbed), you will go to heaven.
Have a look at the following quiz, to see how strange the “rules” for heaven or hell are after the bible:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0203/biblelogicquiz.html

[Guest]

And a nice quiz for tigertank2:
you don’t agree with evolution, as the bible says different (i assume).
Well,
have a look at:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0101/sciencequiz.html
and then we can talk about how often the bible was wrong.

[APolaris]

@F_alk:

I am not sure what you want to say … but (according to the bible) you can be the “holiest” man on earth, yet if you don’t believe in god, you are going to hell. Whereas, you could be a murdering madman, as long as you accept christ as your savior (say on your deathbed), you will go to heaven.

That’s what I love about you Atheists… your selective reading. You take verses completely out of context without mentioning those that give them context to begin with.

For your example of the “holiest” man on Earth, the answer to why he’d be stuck in hell is EXPLICITLY stated: “For ALL have sinned, and ALL fall short of the glory of God.” Or to put it simply enough for the minds of those who haven’t bothered to learn about true Christianity, rather than the “popular” version, there IS no person who is so good that they can go to Heaven just based on their works. The entire POINT of Jesus’ death was to pay the price for our sins; “The wages of sin is death,” referring to spiritual death in Hell, and that means all of us were stuck with that punishment since NOT ONE PERSON is good enough to avoid it; no matter how many good works they do, they still fall short of the glory of God. Jesus’ death was to pay the price in our place, and God was able to do that so He could try to convince us to have a personal relationship with Him in the afterlife, without justice getting in the way.

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

funny, CC, how all your insults and elitism becomes humor when pointed out… :roll: . whatever, im done with this personal issues crap. lets get back to the topic.

insults - is it this, or personal observation? I havn’t insulted you . . . yet.
elitism - i generally tend towards the opposite. I like to tear down elitist institutions (admittedly many tend to be cherished American ones).

• i didn’t claim to be funny - i did suggest that i didn’t catch on to your sense of humor.

id be interested to know why each person believes in god. were you just raised that way, and grew accustomed to it? or did something happen to make you believe?

well, i my parents did try to raise me this way. Still, that did not prevent me from pushing my parents’ teachings away and doing my own searching and finding. Most intelligent people do this.

for a lot of people, i think the way their faith goes is almost entirely dependant on their upbringing. if they were raised with church, theyll believe, just because. if they werent, then they wont. i think thats more common than people actually having faith or not for real reasons, other than custom.

i think this is quite ignorant. It is true that some people follow the religion of their parents, but all of the Christians i know have come by their faith “honestly” - i.e. through personal experience and soul searching.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

And a nice quiz for tigertank2:
you don’t agree with evolution, as the bible says different (i assume).
Well,
have a look at:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0101/sciencequiz.html
and then we can talk about how often the bible was wrong.

is this satire, or real? I can’t tell.

Here is where you find many variances within Christianity - as with nearly any belief system/ideologies.
I think that these people tend also to be selective in the way they read and apply the Bible. They take a verse out of context and apply it as scientific principal.

[APolaris]

That is definitely satire. The manner in which they took half of those cases out of context, and neglected to mention certain other verses that would affect the outcomes, makes more than half of their answers actually incorrect. In particular, #6. Insincere repentance is not true repentance and a person who claims to love God, but continues to act against His will even knowing that what he’s doing is wrong, does not truly love God. The same reason can be applied to at least 2 more of their incorrect answers, and my above posting can be applied to 3 more of them. So yes, when I said “more than half,” I meant that literally.

[Janus1]

well, i my parents did try to raise me this way. Still, that did not prevent me from pushing my parents’ teachings away and doing my own searching and finding. Most intelligent people do this.

well good for you. i didnt ask whether you think intelligent people do this, i asked for YOUR experience.

i think this is quite ignorant. It is true that some people follow the religion of their parents, but all of the Christians i know have come by their faith “honestly” - i.e. through personal experience and soul searching.

again, good for them. but i could counter with in MY experience, people generally accpet the religion they were raised as. the exceptions in people i know are people raised with religion, who later became atheist or agnostic. this almost completely refutes your statement. so its really not ignorance, its a theory, an unproven theory, but still a theory based on what i have seen. im not trying to label anyone or say that they are blindly following the path their parents put them on, just making an observation. and clearly there are exceptions.
this is just another example of you insulting me, and quite frankly, i dont appreciate it.

So you’re saying all faith is based on obedience to an authority?

no, i didnt say all, and its not based on obediance to an authority, but custom. like i said, most people i know dont really have faith or lack of it based on some experience, but rather based on custom, from their upbrining. they honestly believe or not, but i doubt they would if they were raised differently. does that clear it up?

[tiger_tank2]

Well, Herr Falk, I certainaly don’t partake in that type of Christianity. That site is an excellent example of twaddle(to tell you the truth, I scored a 0 on that test!). I have seen foolishness like this before, but not at such extremes! Those stupid answers don’t sound like the bible to me! Whoever runs that site, twisted the word to suit his/her needs, and this changed the meaning COMPETELY! There was an add on there that said something to the extent of “accept Jesus now, and he will give you a cellphone!” MY GOD!!! What CRAP! :evil: sorry… :lol: im getting worked up here…

Just to emphasize my point, and not to insult your intelligence Herr Falk, that was NOT a good example of real Christianity. Society has completely diluted the true meaning of Christ. Since humans revolve around “stimulation” and “entertainment”, individuals try to gussy up the bible, making it tantalizing and “fun”. And the effect of this is: all entertainment, and lost truth. Here is an example; when I was a young 'un, all my “Christian” buddies went to a “Salty the Bible” concert(a person dressed up as a Bible with lime green stockings, singing Bible songs). My mom wisely said “no”, which I am grateful for. I never went to any Bible fun stuff, because the Word isn’t a game, or Bible characters flickering infront of you on a T.V. screen. It is THE Truth, a serious bond between you, and God.

Now NO cartoon, quiz, or Bible game can create that bond. You must
actually accept God into your heart, and maintain a constant relationship with him to sustain that bond. Don’t mistake me for a Bible thumper, because I am not. Go ahead, laugh me off and keep searching in vain for your “truth”. I guarantee you that there isn’t any relationship on this planet, or in the universe, like one with our Lord and Savior.

Guten Abend Herr Falk.

[Guest]

no, i didnt say all, and its not based on obediance to an authority, but custom. like i said, most people i know dont really have faith or lack of it based on some experience, but rather based on custom, from their upbrining. they honestly believe or not, but i doubt they would if they were raised differently. does that clear it up?

Well where does faith come from for those others. You acknowledge that faith is at least based on obediance to conformity, but how can this be called faith at all? Does faith have to come from within rather than with out.

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

well, i my parents did try to raise me this way. Still, that did not prevent me from pushing my parents’ teachings away and doing my own searching and finding. Most intelligent people do this.

well good for you. i didnt ask whether you think intelligent people do this, i asked for YOUR experience.

This was my experience.

i think this is quite ignorant. It is true that some people follow the religion of their parents, but all of the Christians i know have come by their faith “honestly” - i.e. through personal experience and soul searching.

again, good for them. but i could counter with in MY experience, people generally accpet the religion they were raised as. the exceptions in people i know are people raised with religion, who later became atheist or agnostic. this almost completely refutes your statement. so its really not ignorance, its a theory, an unproven theory, but still a theory based on what i have seen. im not trying to label anyone or say that they are blindly following the path their parents put them on, just making an observation. and clearly there are exceptions.

of course there are exceptions. I have met many people raised as agnostics/atheists/other who have become very strong Christians.

this is just another example of you insulting me, and quite frankly, i dont appreciate it.

well, if it makes you happy to interpret this as an insult, then go right ahead. I’ve already experienced this with HFW. Stating that a statement you made was ignorant was not intended as an insult as a correction. I am sorry that you were insulted by this. That’s really too bad.

So you’re saying all faith is based on obedience to an authority?

no, i didnt say all, and its not based on obediance to an authority, but custom. like i said, most people i know dont really have faith or lack of it based on some experience, but rather based on custom, from their upbrining. they honestly believe or not, but i doubt they would if they were raised differently. does that clear it up?

[Janus1]

such is my point. the people i refer to believe out of habit, out of custom. as opposed to the people who have claimed (for me its a claim because i dont believe them) that they have experience god in some way (miracle, felt his presence, etc.) and so have faith because of this. while i dont agree with either, i have more respect for someone who actually has a reason for their faith, even if i doubt the validity of their reason (nothing you can say will make me believe you felt god’s presence, but if you believe it, more power to you). same with atheists/agnostics. if you truly have doubts, or dont believe, because you have some kind of experience (or lack of experience, as the case may be) good, if you were simply raised as an atheist, than thats different, imo.

ill give an example: political ideologies. it has been my experience, that the majority of my peers that i know (i.e. people from my school). have no REAL understanding or opinion of politics. now, oftentimes, these same people will identify themselves as liberal or conservatives, typicalls based on either their parents, or the history department at our school (blatantly pushing liberal propaganda to these poor, impressionable students, some more openly than others). now many of these people now call themselves liberal, yet i doubt whether many would be if we had not had the teachers that pushed the liberal message, and/or if their parents were not, because these kids really dont know anything about anything politics to identify one way or the other. i dont expect you to agree with my viewpoints, but i have reasons for them, they arent simply based on my upbringing (quite counter, in fact: my parents are liberal, and i had the same liberal propaganda at school).

again, i dont mean to say that everyone develops belief or lack therof based on upbringing, but i think it plays a strong role. some are independant minded enough to think for themselves about what they truly beleive, rather than simply following their upbringing.

i anticipate your response AgentSmith, so i will counter it now: if they only believe because of upbringing, do they truly believe? (or vice versa)

consider this: if you are raised in a strong christian household, with the bible followed as strictly as any human could reasonably do, what do you think the chances are the kid will grow up believeing in god? better than not, id say, by a wide margin. there will be exceptions, but for the most part, i think the kid will be a believer. and truly a believer, because he will have been taught god since his first step. he will, unless he has some sort of falling out (something causes him to lose faith) really have no reason NOT to believe in god. same for atheists. if a child was brought up always being taught there is no god, having everything they ask explained in terms of tangible, mortal things (i.e. not supernatural, divine, etc) than he will have no reason TO believe in god, unless he is born again (thinks he is touched by some divine presence). but again, in such children, the likelihood of a falling out or being born again is slim, because such ideas are not commonplace to them.

for myself, since i was raised with some exposure to god, and by parents who believed in god, even if they did not pay service to a religion, i was in the perfect position to find out for myself. i realized i dont believe in god, and find the idea overly-complicated, confusing, and downright absurd.

i hope that answers your question

oh, and TT2, while i almost entirely disagree with your position, i think it was the best, most sincere, and most lucid thing you have ever posted. started out rocky, but ended smooth. props to you. :wink:

anybody read angels and demons? the camerlengo’s speech to the world from inside the sistine chapel was the most convincing argument for religion and against science i have ever heard. if there had ever been any wavering in my position, that would have changed my mind entirely. fortunately, i steadfastly hold to my beliefs. :D