Axis bid to Japan Rather than Germany?


  • whilst i agree that the axis have a disadvantage in a vanilla game with no bids and no RR, i do not think that the odds are insurmountable. A bit like having the white pieces in chess - an advantage for sure, but black can and often does win. i also think that attacking first with Russia on turn 1 is a big mistake. assuming an attack in UKR then depending on what Russia made the attack with (and hence what was left in UKR) then I would either counterattack Karelia or Ukraine back. I would attack UKR if Russia had used a lot of tanks and therefore were left behind in UKR. Else I would attack Karelia.


  • No way, Leonidas. A Russian attack on R1 sets the clock back for Germany for an extra round :D . I also prefer the Eastern Europe attack. Russia can muster three tanks, two fighters, and four men. Odds wise, they should end up taking EEU with one or two tanks. Land the planes in KAR, move the four men from RUS to KAR, and put all eight men in KAR.
    If Germany decides to attack KAR G1, that’s going to be really counterproductive. Not only are you using your fighters to win a land battle, leaving the bulk of UK’s navy alone, but you’re picking a battle that you probably won’t win. If Germany instead decides to attack Caucasus, they will need to move their plane over from GER or Norway. Once again, that’s one less plane that could have been used to delay UK’s naval invasion :wink: .
    To sum it up, a R1 attack (assuming no RR rule) delays Germany’s attack on KAR and buys the Allies a little more time to support Russia and put pressure on Japan.


  • ya, the whole reason for RR is that an R1 offensive is so affective. but personaly, i always take ukr first, its just so much better than EE. the main advantage i see to it is that it alows you to take it so strongly with your inf fron cau. you can attack with 8 inf, 3 arm, 2 ftr against 3 inf, 2 arm, 1 ftr = u should take it strong (aprox 7 guys). move rus inf to kar, place 8 inf on kar. by end of r1 u can have 4 inf, 3 arm in ukr and 12 inf, 2 ftr in kar. u have effectively pushed your borders up strongly (key word) and u now have EE in your crosshairs. if they attack ukr, they can attack with max 5 inf, 4 arm, and air. if they do they will probably take it (but its not a sure thing) and they cant do anything else. next turn u can take it back even stronger and uk still has their navy.


  • I disagree totally - with both of you! :)

    Firstly Attila: If you attack EEU then of course I dont attack KAR but blast whatever’s left in EEU to pieces. I dont attack Russia with Germany until turn 3 anyway (Build men in turn 1, move them up to EEU in turn 2 and build tanks, then in turn 3 attack KAR with overwhelming forces), so this has not delayed my German attack at all. Meanwhile 3 of Russia’s tanks have gone - so I dont need to worry about counter punches from Russia as much. Also the attack by Russia in turn 1 means I can use my Baltic fleet to help decimate the English/Russian fleet round the UK and thus perserve the German fighters.

    Secondly Mr.Lee: If you attack the UKR in the way you describe I would use enough air in the counter attack to make sure the odds of me decimating what you have left in UKR are massively in my favour. And once again Russia have lost nearly all their tanks and thus their counter punching effectiveness.

    Finally what both of you are missing is that if you commit so much of Russia’s resources to the fight on the European Eastern Front (which attacking in turn 1 commits you to do) you will be annihilated by Japan in Asia. All this without causing any real lasting damage to Germany!

    I’ve never lost a game where Russia has attacked me in turn 1.

    Well, actually thinking about it, I’ve never lost a game… but that’s another matter! :D


  • Firstly Attila: If you attack EEU then of course I dont attack KAR but blast whatever’s left in EEU to pieces. I dont attack Russia with Germany until turn 3 anyway (Build men in turn 1, move them up to EEU in turn 2 and build tanks, then in turn 3 attack KAR with overwhelming forces), so this has not delayed my German attack at all. Meanwhile 3 of Russia’s tanks have gone - so I dont need to worry about counter punches from Russia as much. Also the attack by Russia in turn 1 means I can use my Baltic fleet to help decimate the English/Russian fleet round the UK and thus perserve the German fighters.

    Incredibly easy to counter. Turn 1, Russia attacks Ukraine. Turn 2, Russia attacks Finland. Russia Builds full infantry each turn (8 T1, 9 T2, 9 T3). That means your looking at (with 1 Infantry defending Ukraine), What, 38 Infantry in Karelia? Plus whatever Fighters or early Infantry the British and Americans have in there, plus 2 Soviet Fighters, Plus 3 (or 4) Tanks.

    Secondly Mr.Lee: If you attack the UKR in the way you describe I would use enough air in the counter attack to make sure the odds of me decimating what you have left in UKR are massively in my favour. And once again Russia have lost nearly all their tanks and thus their counter punching effectiveness.

    Won’t work. Your probably looking at 5 Infantry in Ukraine. Your attack force is going to consist of so few infantry that your Airforce and whatever tanks you bring along is going to be destroyed, you might capture the area but won’t hold it for another turn.

    Finally what both of you are missing is that if you commit so much of Russia’s resources to the fight on the European Eastern Front (which attacking in turn 1 commits you to do) you will be annihilated by Japan in Asia. All this without causing any real lasting damage to Germany!

    Attacking Turn 1 isn’t usually a good idea, but it isn’t a fatal error. A T1 English Kwangtang attack is sometimes an option.


  • to add to that, what i do as russia in an un-RR game when i attack ukraine first turn is move my aa gun from russia there after i take it. if germany really wants ukraine back, they have to use all their air. if i were germany in a situation like that i would not sacrifice my air.


  • @Soon_U_Die:

    An R1 full court press is sub vs sub in the Atlantic

    I also like to send the Tranny in this battle, and do not put with the UK fleet: Just to improve the odds, that this one sub really dies.


  • Incredibly easy to counter. Turn 1, Russia attacks Ukraine. Turn 2, Russia attacks Finland. Russia Builds full infantry each turn (8 T1, 9 T2, 9 T3). That means your looking at (with 1 Infantry defending Ukraine), What, 38 Infantry in Karelia? Plus whatever Fighters or early Infantry the British and Americans have in there, plus 2 Soviet Fighters, Plus 3 (or 4) Tanks.

    Yanny, you’re jesting right? 38 infantry, plus 3 or 4 tanks Russian tanks in KAR? So, you’re assuming no Russian losses in taking Finland and Ukraine??

    Bruce, moving the AA gun is an interesting idea and would certainly make me think twice about attacking with too much air. Although if Ger did take it back then you would be leaving either KAR or MOS defenceless to industrial bombing - so it is a risky ploy.

    But the crucial point is that with any of these Russia all out T1 offensives Japan is left to mop up in the East virtually unopposed. They will pose a serious threat to MOS itself by T3 or 4. Soon_U_Die, you say turn 6. I can’t see what on earth would be causing Japan to take so long (and no an attack on Kwangtang with E1 would not worry me in the slightest). Sure, Germany is under pressue in the R1 attacks scenario but in these cases Germany doesn’t need to win the war it just has to survive long enough for Japan to carry the day for the Axis - something Germany can do with ease.


  • What is the point of debating situations with no RR and no bid anybody can beat the axis this way. Even with the 2 above mentioned remedies the allies still have the upper hand. Lets hear some axis strategies instead of time tested methods of beating the axis. I mean take out the German fleet, ignore japan, :roll: secure africa buy an aircraft carrier land planes on it and bomb germany. Is there really another strategy the allies need to employ to win?


  • but there is a point in debating this as everyone on this board seems to think Axis are doomed from turn 1 (in non-RR and non-Bid games). I disagree with this, although I do agree that Allies have an advantage, I think it is slight. I’m fully prepared to be shown I’m wrong, but have seen no argument yet that I haven’t played against and beaten. Admittedly, maybe I’m playing mediocre opponents, although I know for a fact they are very good at other games (e.g. chess, poker etc.)? I looked over at the A&A WBC report and they said average bids during the tournament were 13-15 (no RR). I can’t believe bids that large. I’d take Axis in a shot with that high a bid and build two troops in Libya and two in Indo-China!

    Do any of you guys go to the WBC? Is their tournament the real World Axis & Allies Championship? Is there even such a thing and who is the best player in the world…?

    I guess only way to resolve this dispute is to play it out. :D


  • well put SUD
    I would like to join one of these clubs, but at the same time, i think i still have much learning to do before i go out there and humiliate myself.

    Also leon-idas, i’d be happy to play you in a non-RR non-bid game. I’d actually like to see you beat me while you were playing the Axis. That would be a fantastic learning experience for me. At the same time, i have won as allies against excellent players with RR and a bid of 8 or more.

    At the same time, if you’d like a game with other conditions, i could be open to that too.
    cheers.

    p.s. SUD is right. When i’m trying to be a nice guy, it’s easy to come across as a jerk. When i’m being a jerk, well then it’s a lot easier . . . :)


  • Hey guys, I know what you mean about it being all to easy to come across like a jerk over email or a messageboard. Text can often be misconstrued which is why I always use a lot of these fellas: :D
    :D

    Anyway, I’d really like to take you guys up on that offer of playing on the zone. Only problem is I’m UK based and I heard you need to buy the US version (or US only patch?) to get online. I have a UK version but the patch you need to play on the Zone did not work on the UK version. Mind you that was a couple of years back, do any of you know if this is still the case?

    I have to admit SUD that those internet games stat databases look pretty conclusive :D I’m totally prepared to be taught a severe lesson :D


  • PBEM?


  • Hey leonidas,I was reading the discourse and I urge you to join one of the clubs,AAMC if you like 2nd ed.Dont worry about getting trounced early,just watch what they do and ask about strategy as you go[most will explain to a rookie how they are kicking his *** : ) as they go].Your learning curve will be very steep and after a half dozen games you;ll smile broadly as your opp takes the axis for 20.[avg bid is 22. 23 for experts]

    Happy hunting


  • hey sud. seems like you have a lot of experience. I’d like to see you play a game on the forum sometime. i don’t have the time right now, b/c i am in the middle of a game but maybe versus darth maximus (or baby huey)?? when you say bid of 20 or so, you mean w/o RR right?


  • Hmm, sounds like ya’ll play with some serious contenders. I don’t know even what RR stands for but i do know this. I like the challenge of playing the axis against all odds. Sure the game is slanted against you, but damnit… I’m gonna try my best to wipe the allies off the board.

    Likely the guys I’ve played against just suck, but as germany I’ve kept the seas clear of allied ships for 3 rounds or so and always have moscow by turn 2 or 3, it is usually a bit gamble but it works. As japan, I’ve been notorious for assaulting the US navy and invading alaska with 4+ troops on turn 3 while still having secure boarders in china.

    Spread thin? Yup, Gotten beat, you bet… But I’ve won nearly 60-70% of the games and always made 'em sweat. So I say bring it…screw the bidding and the RR…Damn the torpedoes and stuff. If I wanted a fair game I’d play Candy Land with my 2yr old.

    -The Fuzzy One

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