@frimmel LOL! really love your point about WOTC! Also, appreciate Krieghund’s points about some of the things that could have gone into the booklet. Clearly the 3-page fact sheet helps to clear up a lot of shortcomings. And yes we should be thankful there is a place where we can go and get official rules clarifications. By the way we had a terrific time playing the game. with all the rules under our belt, it was exciting to see all of the different variations and movements that can be made at the Tactical level in this game. Thankyou.
Posts made by Teflon2017
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RE: Supply tokens
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RE: Supply tokens
Sea Dog,
Glad to give you an answer. His premise is not flawed and the mechanics of the game do address paying tokens for activating hexes for movement as well as attacks (in two separate sections of the rulebook outlining two distinct phases). Had the rulebook used one word “also” (as you mention) in the paying for movement paragraph on page 18, that would have been very illuminating. Instead the paragraph uses the phrase “similar to attacking” which is probably single-handedly the biggest reason that players are inclined to think that the phase 2 token has already paid their way into the targeted hex. Please reference my response to the two questions topic where I highlight the realization that my frustrations are with the inadequacies of the rulebook and the fact that it does not make it clear in the phase 2 instructions that attacking units do not move into the hex they are attacking rather they shoot across the line. I was only able to realize this after having read through all of the topics in this section. When combining that with the statement in the unit characteristics and seeing the CL V pic on the supply token, I am realigned with the proper play. This is not an excuse for the fact that, given the enormous historical significance of this battle, a revised Edition to this game’s rulebook should be published and include sufficient discriminating detail for the target audience to understand how to play the game without having to go through dozens of blogs and finally find a fact sheet not to mention getting automated messages back from Wizards of the Coast that they will not assist in interpreting rules. I’m very sure I’m not the only person who feels this way. Your response was sincerely appreciated.
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RE: A Tale of Two Questions
Okay, thank you Krieghund for the Speedy reply. Because you care (which is greatly appreciated), I would like to go a little bit deeper into the some of the thoughts that I have about the rulebook.
with respect to question one, is there a consistent application of this characteristic of the units that were in battle with respect to the attacking units? I read elsewhere in this BotB topic section that attacking units have to pay a token both in Phase 2 and phase 3 to conduct the battle and then to be able to move into the defeated hex. Of course, at the start of the rules for movement sect on pg 18, it would have been very helpful to mention that units that attacked in phase 2 must pay an “additional” token to move into the empty hex. It is not inherently obvious to the reader as one’s mind tends to shift gears when you start talking about a new phase. Since 90% of the rules are almost 180 degrees from standard axis and allies combat, the differences should have addressed much as possible as that is your most likely target audience. for example, should we assume there is a requirement for each of the units that participated in a Ph 2 combat to be required to move into the defeated hex, or can they pretty much activate for movement wherever they want to go even though they just won a battle?..which is always considered a significant happening in any of the games. Is there even a requirement for at least one unit to move into the defeated territory? none of this is clearly laid out in the rulebooklet.
Regarding question 2, I appreciate the frank direction to point to the page in the rulebook. unfortunately, the wording there is just as incomplete as in so many other places. Since the supply token battle strip only has 1 image, it immediately creates confusion in the mind of the player who is looking at the other battle strips which make designating multiple qtys of unit types possible depending on how many are in battle. if only having one image on the supply strip is because it is only intended for it to be hit once on each pass of the count…then say so! The examples provided on pg 15 for hit counts leave out the most important example which is how to address multiple hits on hexes with multiple Supply tokens. Example shows only one Supply token in the targeted hex. This is why the gentleman in the topic about hit counts on page 4 of this section had to provide several examples for you to adjudicate (found the article after I made this first post). Many Thanks…
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RE: Supply tokens
@frimmel Sorry but this adjudication is flawed. I can see from the wording in the rulebook between page 14 and page 18 why you could assert that. However, in terms of the game’s stated mechanics, it doesn’t make any sense because you spend Supply tokens to activate a hex for movement and when you attack a hex you do not move your units into it. therefore, it should be one token for one movement and that movement occurs during the movement phase. Therefore this is how we will play the game for ourselves. Rulebooks should not be finalized until you’ve had at least 20 play tests.
Once you get around the unsat rulebook, this game is actually really fun to play and I like it alot. -
RE: A Tale of Two Questions
@Teflon2017 oh, I should add that I meant 3 consecutive dice hits…
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A Tale of Two Questions
A friend and I were enjoying BOTB for the first time and ended up with two questions we couldn’t find answers to anywhere else:
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Are units that are forced to retreat during Phase 2 Gnd Combat allowed to pay a token and conduct movement in Phase 3 or because they already moved (due to the retreat), is that the end of their ability to move for the rest of any given turn?
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For the supply battle strip, if 1die hits the right count for supplies, then one supply token is destroyed. But, what is it if there are 3 Supply tokens in the hex, and there are 3 hits from the dice but there’s only one Supply token symbol on the battle strip. How does that work? Is it three Supply tokens destroyed or only one?
Thanks,
Col Tef -
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RE: Standardization of Dice Colors
Young Grasshopper now also has attack dice with rounded edges that will debut on HBG. Video is posted on youtube. The color combo is:
Black - 1
Green -2
Blue - 3
Red - 4Just FYI.
Aloha,
Teflon
Vocano GarrisonPS. always played blue as 4 for bombers/Tacs and battlships….
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RE: A&A G40 Con 2018 Vegas
Totally Agree!! Local Con would be awesome!! Way to go DA!!
San Fran Hord,
Desert ADM, Sired Blood, Widow Maker and I are also just a 45 min flight from you guys. We could just join you on a holiday weekend sometme.
Aloha
Teflon
Volcano Garrison -
RE: Grasshopper's G40 Invitational (OLD THREAD)
OK then. if we are already picking teams, Hunter would you like to team with me to take on the great ones, YG, GHG and Sired Blood? Ready to rock!! Whats A Team gonna do? “sit around a campfire and sing songs?!” - in honor of Bill Paxton who passed away last year…
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RE: Grasshopper's G40 Invitational (OLD THREAD)
Volcano Garrison is All-in!! Have Passport will travel. If short on attendees at event, am willing to play 2-man teams to help you keep tables. B4 coming from Vienna….awesome!
Aloha Nui Loa, Tef -
RE: Holland Airbase before Sealion?
Wild Bill,
One clarification on the Sneak Attack scenario. If the attacking force in a sea battle has more than just subs, the defending non-DD warships don’t get to shoot back until the other attacking warships have fired first, correct?
V/r,
Tef -
RE: Holland Airbase before Sealion?
Wild Bill,
Thanks for the shout back. Know the basics about DDs screening for subs. Was just wondering about the two shot thing as the rules almost make it look like Sneak Attack is a separate step of Conduct Combat (CC) phase. But, basically, as you say, Sneak Attack only ensure no casualty shot from capital ships, cruisers or subs if they’ve been hit with the Kill Shot.
Thanks to you guys, will never waste a sub again in SZ109 on G1 Attack. The one time I did it before, I think I was fortunate there was no scramble and thus didn’t learn me noth’n.
Looks to be no prob with getting down to east coast and Canada from starting positions. Sub in SZ118 makes it to SZ101 in two. Sub in SZ117 makes it to SZ106 in two.
Mahalo,
Tef -
RE: Pearl Harbor
WB. Rog. In YGH’s video the benefit when losing the planes was that only one CV had to move not that you get to add more planes……can I get ur thoughts on all of the above?
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RE: Holland Airbase before Sealion?
Wild Bill,
Thanks again. Copy on the SZ 109 attack. Reassessing.
Important to kill that SOB DD there but won’t get a chance because Scramble will kill the sub prior to its standard SeaBattle attack. However, if I redesignate the Holland Fighter to the SZ110 ASB, I am definitely going to want to retask the SZ109 sub to hit the CAN DD and TT. If my opponent sends the UK BB up to Iceland, I will send the Condors up to Iceland with the CV. If the other battles go well, there may only be 1x US Ftr from East Coast and 1x UK DD with the BB at Iceland. Will have to keep the 2x IN in Norway to secure the landing field. If UK tucks the BB into SZ 109, I’ll launch the Amphib on Scotland from there, killing two birds with one stone on G2. Definitely have to send 1x U-boat at the CA in SZ91 and one at the CA in SZ 101. If I understand sneak attack correctly, I get to shoot twice at those cruisers before they can counter-attack. First shot is the sneak attack (to which they don’t get to shoot back) and second shot is Std attack (could you briefly confirm I got this right?).
Here’s how I’ve laid out the NORLANT G1 ASB for GM Surface Navy and Luftwaffe:
U-Boats Attack (1ea):
- SZ101; SZ91; SZ106; SZ110 SZ111
ASB SZ111 (one round of combat):
- 1x BB; 1x FB (Stuka); 1x Ftr
ASB SZ110:
- 2x Bs (Condor); 3x Ftrs; 2x FBs
What do you think?
Tef
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RE: Pearl Harbor
:-) :-P :roll:
OK, finally got my forum account up and running. The confirmation email was in my Junk Mail Box of all places. :roll:
Intriguing to see all of the Strategic discussions fostered about the J1 Attack. I found myself being pulled towards Taamvan and Simon33 and Bomber Harris….and then pulled back to Wild Bill and Zerxes. I’ve decided a gradual accumulation of the money islands by end of J3 is in order. I will pull back J2 to Carolines (maybe…tend towards being a little compulsive which makes for surprises) but only once I’ve spanked PACFLT hard with IJF “Air Power!!” :-o and left 1 or 2 Gnd Units behind in Honolulu for the US to deal with.
Moving fwd I’d like to ask any of you about moving the 2x IN in Siam West instead of east in an attempt to prestage an attack on Malay on J2 with IJAF and no Amphib landing (focusing all TT amphib action on the money Is.). This would kill the ANZAC NO early and keep AUS small. Realize I can do the same thing by landing on New Guinea and threaten Dutch W. New Guinea.
Another issue I’d like to discuss.
Not trying to cheat, but trying to visualize and stretch to its limits the advantage of leaving carriers behind for ghost Non-Combat Moves (NCMs) to justify maximizing Ftrs in an AirSea Battle (ASB). Lets say in my J1 Attack on Pearl I use planes from the 2 IJN Carriers (CV) in SZ 6 but I also want to use the 2 planes from the SZ33 carrier to attack Manila, also on J1. If I leave both CVs in SZ6 there until the NCM phase and I do the same with the carrier in SZ33, would this justify me being able to bring an add’l 2 Ftrs from mainland Japan AB into the battle at Pearl SZ26 for a total of 6x Ftrs in that AO…this all justified even if I only end up actually bringing 2 CVs in during the NCM phase because I selected 2 of the 6 planes as casualties during CC phase?In other words, is the use of fighters I laid out above legal or not? Or, if I only have 3 CVs allocated btw the 2 Battles, is 4x Ftrs the max total I can fly into SZ26 from JPN SZ6 and 2x Ftrs into Philippines from CV at Caroline Is.? And, that’s just how the rules work about bonified landing spots…
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RE: Holland Airbase before Sealion?
Taamvan and Simon33,
(Break-Break….since both of you were so fast to respond, could you go back over to our tactical breakout in the J1 Attack forum discussion and see my question on maximizing use of Ftrs in conjuction with carrier NCMs?)
Copy on all. I’m reassigning A/C to the ASB is SZ110 as a result of moving the BB to ASB in SZ111. I’m also reassigning subs to attack all UK ships in the Atlantic, one on each SZ. The UK DD in SZ109 will never make it as he has a sub and a fighter on him. Most, not all, Allied players I’ve played resist the Scramble in order to turtle shell in London so I’ll take the risk in SZ110.
What assets in addition to the two U-boats do you use to take out the RU Fleet which is bottled up in the Baltic? If Sea Lion, do you wait until G4 attack to do it?
Respectfully,
Tef -
RE: Holland Airbase before Sealion?
OK, just found the previous forum discussion ref same topic. Based on Wild Bill’s point about not destroying the fleet in SZ111, I see now that because a GM2 fleet in SZ112 can catch up to the UK BB in Iceland because W. GE has a Naval Base. So, that one is dead on G2 anyway. The means to use the BB and save it at the same time is the retreat strategy back into SZ112 after a debilitating attack on the UK Fleet. This enables the 6 unit pounce onto Scotland on GM2 Attack with CA supporting the two add’l TTs. More importantly, this BB retreat strategy enables me to place a bomber on the UK DD in SZ109 so it no longer exists to skirt around to perform a blocking role. Wow, GE can even get a one-sub pot shot at the UK CR in SZ91 to help out Italy. Very nice indeed.
I’m rewriting my GE1 Attack Plan.
Many Thanks to all,
Teflon -
RE: Holland Airbase before Sealion?
ALCON,
Finally got my account. Thanks for all your comments and their resulting improvement to my TTPs, some reassuring but others challenging to contemplate. I will double back on the J1 Attack on Pearl discussion when I have a chance. For the G1 Attack discussion here, I must share my frustration at the thought of purchasing an AB in Holland just to save the Bismark (or Tirpitz take your pick). However, there is no option when using the BB to attack UK fleets that results in it surviving the UK1 F-B counter-attack. Even in SZ 111, if any U-boats survive, all of the Bombs and Torps are hitting the BB only. As you know, on G1, the Prince Eugen (or ADM Hipper) is in SZ114 and cannot make it to SZ111. So I guess I’m not getting the point about running back into the Baltic since that’s never going to be possible unless there is a timid or unexperienced UK player controlling the RAF. Buying the AB in Holland enables 3x FTR scramble on UK1 F-B counter-attack and guarantees survival of the Battleship which is, however, highly useful as Task Force Core and for offshore Bombardment. And, if UK is bold enough to attack even a crippled Bismark in SZ110 with a scramble, GM gets an opportunity prior to G2 to take out another chunk of the RAF prior to Op Sea Lion.CDG and others are right in that the 15 IPCs could probably be better spent although two add’l uses I see for a Holland AB are the ability for Ftrs to hit SZ91 with out having to land at GIB (which Axis might not Cntrl) as well as ability to hit a US fleet trying to hide behind Scotland in SZ119 (must land in Norway). One thing this discussion has made very clear to me is the danger of a surviving UK DD in SZ109 moving itself around Scotland and stopping in SZ112 and bringing a halt to transport movement on GM2 Sea Lion Attack. Obvious TTP to adopt is risking the Hipper Class CR and TT by NMC to SZ112 where the DD either has to do sea combat and is subsequently cleared out by a scramble from W. Germany.
Can someone ID the acronym IMO for me? (Intermediate Military Objective?) LOL
Respectfully,
Teflon