@krieghund said in [US 30 IPC bonus question](/forums
but the factory is only Minor- so, can’t put more than 3 on until converted to Major after USA declares war on Japan in its combat phase?
Incorrect. The US IC does not start the game as a minor one in Pacific (or Europe). That rule applies only to Global.
Correct! Serves me right for writing about two games at once.
@mikemikemike In 1940 Pacific, yes. In 1940 Global, no.
Also keep in mind that in 1940 Pacific the US industrial complexes are still minor. It would take a declaration of war to upgrade them to major industrial complexes.
Again, the 30 IPC bonus only applies to 1940 Pacific and not to 1940 Global.
@trulpen I assume your reply was meant for the post prior to mine.
I typically do 1 fig, 2 inf in the UK and an MIC for Egypt on UK1. I do not do Taranto usually, so the Scotland fighters (one gets placed with the bid pretty much all the time) wind up in the UK. One fighter usually goes off with the sea zone 109 DD and the strat bomber to kill German subs in sea zone 106, but I’m still left with four fighters in the UK plus the augmented infantry force. The four fighters are enough to dissuade unescorted strat bombing, and Germany usually does not have fighters positioned for escorted strat bombing on G2.
This approach puts Italy in the position of having to spend money to try to save its fleet, which it cannot do for more than a three turns. During this time, it is spending money on fleet and not on European defenses or fast movers to help Germany in Russia.
Once the UK kills the Italian fleet, Italian income sinks rapidly due to convoy disruption. If Italy doesn’t try to keep its fleet alive, it loses income sooner and can’t contribute.
Either way, Italy is very weak.
This secures the Med, allowing the UK to focus on the Middle East starting about turn 4 and shipping fighters to Moscow on turn three. It keeps Italy from helping Germany significantly with defense or offense.
Starting about turn 3, I try to add one infantry per turn on average to the UK to build for the eventual possibility of a late Sea Lion attempt.
If the South Africa factory is to be used to produce units to defend Egypt and contest the Middle East, I suggest starting with three infantry there on turns two and three that slow walk to their destination before you start producing mechs. Producing mechs there on turn four will get them to Egypt at the same time as the turn two infantry and you’ll have saved six IPCs in the process.
If you want another IC in the area, Iraq is modestly better than Persia despite the extra turn it takes for fighters produced there to arrive in Moscow – Iraq is just a little easier to hold.
@freh Ok, I see it now. Pretty sneaky 
@freh I count 7 from Greece, so Greece with an airbase maybe or am I miscounting?
Just so are all aware, the ANZAC infantry in New Guinea is not a legal bid.
Marsh
If the US or UK has taken Norway, fighters based there can reach Germany and back to Norway without any airbase or carrier.
That being said, a full court press on Germany should include some strategic bombers for industrial bombing to help reduce some of Germany’s income that can be used to both defend Europe and strangle Russia at the same time.
Marsh
@jscam74 Yes, if he were already in the Mediterranean and your ship was alone in sea zone 91 he could clear sea zone 91 with just his planes and then leave the Med with the fleet in non-combat movement.
Marsh
@jscam74 said in Sea Zone Movement:
Another question regarding sea zone movement. My opponent took his German fleet into the Med after taking Gibraltar. If I place an American destroyer in SZ91 to force him to engage and essentially slow his movement capability, can he choose to only send his planes during combat phase to clear the SZ and then during non-combat phase move his fleet through SZ91 (and beyond - would technically still have three spaces) or since it was recently hostile is he confined to stay put until his next turn? Obviously he could also send his whole fleet into battle, but the rules are clear about his movement being done in this case. I couldn’t find anything about the scenario I raised.
All naval and air units present in the sea zone are presumed to be present for the combat. If the units remain in sea zone 91 during combat, they are presumed to have participated in the combat. So, if your opponent leaves the ships in sea zone 91 for the combat, they are in the combat and cannot move during non-combat movement.
What your opponent CAN do is move the naval units during the combat movement phase to avoid them being included in the combat. In this case the end result is the same, but when a transport is involved the end result is not the same.
This is an example of a situation where you must do non-combat movement during the combat movement phase to avoid the units being involved in combat.
Marsh
@jscam74 Funny how those 0% likely results happen a lot! The Dice Goddess is a fickle one.
@crockett36 said in Warfare Principles of Axis & Allies (By AndrewAAGamer):
@marshmallowofwar I guess I didn’t realize we were in a debate, but rather assumed it was a cooperative free for all that might lead to either a confirmation of standard doctrine or the discovery of innovative ideas that might change the balance of power. Thanks for your thoughts.
It’s not a debate, but part of any cooperative discussion has to be asking questions.
Nothing @AndrewAAGamer has said makes me change my opinion that in at least some circumstances DD+CC > BB. The BB only has more value when there are enough smaller units to shield it from taking the second hit. If we should be wringing every possible advantage out of the build, DD+CC gives a bit more advantage than BB.
From the perspective of supporting shore bombardment, 5 cruisers gives on average 2.5 hits while three battleships gives on average 2 hits for the same IPC cost. (However, I believe that only one support shot per loaded transport is allowed; if so that would increase the cost of the landing by at least 7IPCs.)
From the offensive/defensive perspective DD + CC gives a small edge over BB in early combat rounds (the ones that matter most) AND chance of am early second hit when the BB can only get one hit.
DD + CC puts more units on the board to allow smaller task forces to exist to cover transports.
Are cruisers overpriced? Absolutely, and the real cost should be 11 IPCs (or maybe even 10…), but I build cruisers more often than I build battleships.
@arthur-bomber-harris said in Warfare Principles of Axis & Allies (By AndrewAAGamer):
@crockett36 Normandy should be left completely unoccupied by the time the Allies have a sizable landing force. As you mentioned, there can be considerable devastation to any Axis force situated in that territory and it cannot be reasonably defended without diverting from the main goal of crushing Moscow or heading into the Middle East/Egypt. Normandy or Norway will fall, it just is a matter of on which round and whether the Axis will be able to retake it with a counterattack of ground units supported by planes. France is the best place to have the Axis counterstrike infantry/artillery. Mechanized units can help counterstrike from W Germany. Usually, though, a wave of UK fighters add enough defensive might to Normandy or Norway to ensure that the Axis are unable to strike back.
Agree with most of this, but as I’ve said on other threads I try not to take Normandy at all until Russia is captured (and there’s absolutely no way I would have forces sitting there waiting to be bombarded). Sometimes taking Normandy is unavoidable, but Normandy without a US factory is a much easier nut to crack than Normandy with a US factory!
Marsh
@crockett36 Nope, but neither can I read your mind. If you have additional things to modify the situation it’s helpful if you include them in your assessment.
@maddabout said in If you were Germany what would you do?:
Question when the MC gets downgraded can the capturing force upgrade it? The US has a ton of money so its kind of a moot point they can just drop 20IPC’s and still have 50IPC’s to spend.
No, only the original owner can upgrade it.
Marsh
@andrewaagamer I believe with the W Germany naval base available to the UK he can also bring two infantry from the UK for the attack. Have I missed something?
Also, assuming green chips are threes, doesn’t he have 12 units there?
Marsh
As Andrew said, there is no worry here at all because you build in Berlin before the US and UK can go, US has no ground units so all it can do is sacrifice planes, and UK can only bring a three tanks and two infantry as ground forces as an assault force.
Depending on what those gray and black ships are in sea zone 112, you might even have an opportunity to destroy the Allied Atlantic fleet.
I would build 8 infantry, a fighter, and a destroyer in Germany.
Use your Germany tanks and tactical bomber to kill the UK tank in Yugoslavia (being sure the tactical bomber makes it back to Germany), and use a single infantry to recapture West Germany because you do not want the US building there.
Place the destroyer in sea zone 113, forcing the US to clear the zone for the UK (and preventing the US from sacrificing its planes in Germany to make a UK victory more likely) or forcing the UK to clear sea zone 113 (preventing any amphibious support shots) (depending on what those black and gray ships are!).
Consider building three fighters at the Novgorod IC – those fighters can threaten sea zone 112, along with the fighter and tactical bomber from Germany. Retreat at least one infantry from Finland to cover the fighters.
I don’t think you need to move anything back from Moscow – I think you need to go get your next two NOs in Caucasus and Volgrograd. I would consider building a strat bomber in Moscow to help with the threat to the Allied Atlantic fleet.
Marsh
EDIT: Well, I missed that it’s currently the US turn from the original posting. If this is the case, if the US sacrifices its planes and gets lucky with the bombard, you might lose the battle but the odds are still heavily on your side (assuming green chips are three units).
Andrew is correct – those infantry you’re losing in your first pass are more valuable on defense than on offense unless you are going to kill more German units than you lose in Russian units.
Marsh
@crockett36 Ok, I figured out why I was skeptical.
You’ve outlined your entire Atlantic naval force as what you posted and you’re assuming you’ve got three more loaded transports coming every turn to bleed the Axis in Normandy.
If your entire fleet is sitting in 110, how are those loaded transports making it to sea zone 110 each turn? If they’re going to Gibraltar, they can be reached by Italian subs and by German strategic bombers. If they’re parking mid-Atlantic, I can reach them with France-based strategic bombers.
If your entire fleet is not sitting in 110, I’m either going to kill your sea zone 110 fleet (thus stopping the bleeding and cutting off your reinforcements) before I worry about whatever you have in Normandy. And if I don’t have the planes and subs to do it this turn, you can bet I’ll have them next turn!
Marsh
@crockett36 Uh, sure.
Color me skeptical. Besides, Normandy is a sucker’s play until after Russia has fallen.
@crockett36 That depends on much Axis air force remains, how much Axis navy remains that can hit sea zone 110, and whether or not Normandy and Holland are available as landing spaces for those planes (with sufficient ground forces to protect them from an Allied invasion).
Also, three loaded transports won’t do. That might be enough to hold off a counterattack from Finland after you take Norway, but it’s certainly not enough to hold Normandy if Germany has been foolish (or unlucky) enough to have captured it before Russia is in the bag and is forced to defend it.
Marsh
@andrewaagamer My question was why build a battleship (one unit) when for the same price you can have two units that might get two hits in defense (or offense for that matter) and gives the same number of defensive hits?
It’s true that the battleship shoots better on the second round of combat, but getting that extra hit potentially on the first round of combat weakens the attacker opponent’s second round of combat.
It seems to me that any time you would build a battleship you’re better off building a destroyer and a cruiser instead unless you are limited to building only a single unit…
@andrewaagamer That’s awesome, but it’s not really an answer to the question.
5 battleships (100 IPCs) attacking 5 destroyers and 5 cruisers (100 IPCs) wins about 46% of the time according to the Triple A calculation (over 10000 iterations). The defender wins 50% of the time and the other 4% is a draw.
5 destroyers and 5 cruisers attacking 5 battleships wins 50% of the time. The battleships win 46% of the time, and the other 4% is a draw.
If I increase those numbers to 15 stacks, the win ratio for the mixed units goes up to 52%.
To me, those numbers back up my position that it’s better to have two units than one – the two unit combo has a slight edge. Is my math off somewhere?
Marsh