I didnt say high security meant treating them like scum, there is a difference. but i think both should be employed. prisoners are scum, thats why they are being punished.
Yes… but many of these prisoners have not been convicted of any crime or brought to trial. Plus, there may be innocent people there caught in the crossfire.
As LJ so nicely pointed out, Jail is where the accused are held, so the prisons (which I am talking about specifically) is holding the convicted only
I never said harsh conditions were guards and towers. I dont know where you pulled that from, because that is not something i would say.
If A(present tense) then B(conditional I)…… => fair chance of A happening.
I see my mistake: it should have at least been:
If “harsh conditions” was guards… then we would agree.
I didnt say high security meant treating them like scum, …prisoners are scum, … They are scum and should be treated as such.
i see.
BTW:
@Janus:
the prisons (which I am talking about specifically)
@ Janus. there is no need to stick at my involuntary diversion form the topic. Let’s talk about the jail in Guantanamo bay again.
@ all: a person in prison is a prisoner. What is a person in jail called?
As LJ so nicely pointed out, Jail is where the accused are held, so the prisons (which I am talking about specifically) is holding the convicted only
Than Guantanamo is also a jail.
What is a person in jail called?
I dont know, ask El Jefe
Than Guantanamo is also a jail.
granted, but even still, i dont think the conditions there are too harsh, or undue.
F_alk, we still have yet to hear of your exact objections to Camp X-Ray. Please list exactly what is so inhumane.
AFAIR the camp X-Raz has been dissolved into some other camps, now listed by letters. THe things that i accused have been mentioned by TG Moses, thus i will not go into that further.
And i have one more problem:
D:S, could you please find me information about the “jail”-camp in Afghanistan and the one on Diego Garcia? You won’t find much information on that, which means i can claim whatever i want and you won"t be able to prove me wrong. Of course, you could do the same thing, saying that it is all good there. … Well, the german people were not told what happened in the KZs either.
If you commit a murder, you should be shot. If you commit a rape, you should be shot, if you commit various other crimes (genocide, torture, etc) you should be shot. below that, you should be put into a jail of conditions so harsh, that when you come out, you would be mortally afraid of committing another crime. with conditions so harsh, the terms would likely not have to be as long, so they could probably be shortened.
If you commit a murder, you should be shot. If you commit a rape, you should be shot, if you commit various other crimes (genocide, torture, etc) you should be shot. below that, you should be put into a jail of conditions so harsh, that when you come out, you would be mortally afraid of committing another crime. with conditions so harsh, the terms would likely not have to be as long, so they could probably be shortened.
yes, but how many of us will admit to committing a murder, or will be determined to have done so beyond a shadow of a doubt? Beyond reasonable doubt is just not good enough - yet this is what kills hundreds of Americans.
well thats is your opinion. and im not voltaire, i usually wont defend your right to say it, but i can actually see the opposite side in this case, though i staunchly disagree with it. nevertheless, as youve already heard me say, im not directly opposed to some innocents losing their lives from being convicted, if it means getting rid of the guilty.
well thats is your opinion. and im not voltaire, i usually wont defend your right to say it, but i can actually see the opposite side in this case, though i staunchly disagree with it. nevertheless, as youve already heard me say, im not directly opposed to some innocents losing their lives from being convicted, if it means getting rid of the guilty.
You like omelets, don’t you? :wink:
yes, but how many of us will admit to committing a murder, or will be determined to have done so beyond a shadow of a doubt? Beyond reasonable doubt is just not good enough - yet this is what kills hundreds of Americans.
So then what do you propose? The only reason I would go along with what Janus says is because it’s the only way I can see to decrease prison populations. I do want to know what the definition of harsh conditions is.
…nevertheless, as youve already heard me say, im not directly opposed to some innocents losing their lives from being convicted, if it means getting rid of the guilty.
Wait a second….
these innocent that are killed then of course are not “unnecessary lives” that are lost…
I see where you are standing, Janus: In Germany we call that Fascist (as has been noticed by others in these fora).
:wink: not quite guest, but along those lines. Of course, understand that i do not advocate knowingly executing the innocent. not at all. I simply think its acceptable for an innocent to have been wrongly convicted, and summarily executed. no system is perfect, and it is bound to happen. and if people see you are willing to do so, without issuing ample apologies, and settlements to the “victims” family, they may think twice about commiting a crime.
:wink: not quite guest, but along those lines. Of course, understand that i do not advocate knowingly executing the innocent. not at all. I simply think its acceptable for an innocent to have been wrongly convicted, and summarily executed. no system is perfect, and it is bound to happen. and if people see you are willing to do so, without issuing ample apologies, and settlements to the “victims” family, they may think twice about commiting a crime.
Do you advocate any change in the judicial system then? Because I agree with the death penalty, but only in capital cases where it can be proven to the jury that the crime was committed. An innocent person or two, well, where do you draw the line? Eventually, we may just start randomly picking out people and having them shot.
well, mike might not object to that, i have slightly more compassion. I strongly disagree with the current legal system, you can read my views in another thread in this forum, i may post them again later if you ask, im too tired right now.
The guest above was me. Sorry for that, it said i was logged on…
Anyway, i don"t think you had any troubles in identifying what was written by me… happended with two other posts as well.
BTW, Janus, would you mind to get shot? Or even better, would you mind to have your loev shot, or your later kids… would you sacrifice them?
Especially for the kids: you might say yes today, but i bet you won’t once you have any.
same way id have taken the argument falk, but it doesnt faze me.
- i would never commit a murder, rape, etc.
- if my children/loved one did i might shoot them myself
Well, you take into account that innocents will die, so of course commiting a crime only raises your chances to get killed by the gov’t. Following you, you yourself should be welcoming to die by gov’t hands even as a total innocent, as long as at least two guilties are caught and killed for that.
- …however, as i have stated before … i can know … that an idea is a good one, yet disagree with it when it is my a**. … under my plan, id get a term in a harsh prison. i wouldnt like that at all, yet i would still believe the system is good. do you understand what i mean? rereading it, it seems a little unclear.
Actually, according to your plan you don’t necessarily get a term in a harsh prison . You might as well be accused of murder, found guilty and killed. End of story, even if you are as innocent as possible.
Well, you take into account that innocents will die, so of course commiting a crime only raises your chances to get killed by the gov’t. Following you, you yourself should be welcoming to die by gov’t hands even as a total innocent, as long as at least two guilties are caught and killed for that.
your logic is not logical
Actually, according to your plan you don’t necessarily get a term in a harsh prison . You might as well be accused of murder, found guilty and killed. End of story, even if you are as innocent as possible.
no falk, you are wrong.
just because you dont agree with a system, you should not make up false circumstances to discredit it. argue the truth
Janus, you yourself said on top of this page:
@Janus1:
…nevertheless, as youve already heard me say, im not directly opposed to some innocents losing their lives from being convicted, if it means getting rid of the guilty.
so, you take into account that innocents will die. You also said that you want the death penalty for some crimes also.
But how does that go with
that you would exaggerate to such an extent simply because you do not agree with my position.
i am not exaggerating, i am just going into which holes your system has, and ask wether you would like to be the one who suffers from that misdesign.
Again you:
there still needs to be evidence that someone committed a crime. changing the penaltys does not mean that suddenly someone can be accused of murder and summarily executed without proof. it simply means that if someone is convicted of murder, rape, etc, they shall be killed.
It seems to me that you have missed one vital point in my arguing.
You said you (at the moment) might deserve a prison term in your system. I said that what you deserve is irrelevant, as you take into account that innocents will be charged and penalized. Now the point you seemed to have missed: These innocents can include you. You can be killed, no matter wether you have done a crime or not.
Look at the very above quote from you.
So, before you claim i am not logical, read again and think.
