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Author Topic: New Japan Strategy  (Read 46170 times)
thespaceman
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« on: September 17, 2006, 08:31:29 pm »
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Hi all,

Up untill now I have been a staunch builder of transports for Japan. However After studying the map (2nd Ed) I realised that a IC in India or French Indo China- Burma might allow certain possibilities.

Assume a fairly normal game so far using Russia restricted and/or a 20-25 bid for axis.

Russia Builds huge infantry reserves and bulds a wall of infa across asia blocking any rapid ��� advance.
Germany bombs UK fleets and starts Africa creep with 1-2 INF and a FTR
UK bombs German fleet and starts bulding TRNS
US start building Atlantic fleet for Overlord or Torch landings

German expansion will come to a stop quickly as all three allied powers can concentrate on it. It is up to Japan to turn the tables by gaining territories and income as quickly as possible


Now an IC in French Indo China-Burma may allow ��� to quickly pick up large amounts of money in previously safe areas.

��� Turn 1[

Pull the INf from Kwang into Burma to help defend, also bring across the inf from phillipines. In addition to any INF placed as part of the bid process you could end up with 8-10 INF + 1-2 FTRs / +BMR in Burma on J-T1.

Also if allies are weak then India/China/Sianking could be attacked on T1.

The Northern flank will be left deliberately weak to draw Allied forces into the coastal areas where they can be hit by ��� Battleships and fresh reserves from TRNS from Japan. So any Russian / US advance into Manch/Kwang will be immediately countered with a double /triple landing all along the East coast

T1 Japan builds IC (Burma) and 3 INF ��� (or TRN)

��� Turn 2

Concentrate on the India/China/Sianking triangle and build 1 Arm, 2 INF, 1 TRN in Burma, 2-3 INF in ���. By pooling the inf into Burma the allies will be faced with either pulling back or being smashed by 10 INF + FTRS

Also counter any allied push into MANCH,


��� Turn 3

Japan can now do a Southern Asia creep or push into Russia or launch other attacks. The 2 trns can scoot back to Japan to pick up INF and dump into MANCH or pick up INF from BURMA or the any of the Islands to drop into undefended UK territories. eg

1. Push infantry /armour through Syria into Egypt
2. Use a transport to get to Madagascar
3. Use a transport to get to Australia
4. Use a transport to shift troops quickly into South Africa.



By turn 3-4 ��� should be able to gain the following territories

INDIA 3 IPC
CHINA 2 IPC
SIANKING 2 IPC
SYRIA 2 IPC
MADAGASCAR 1 IPC
AUS or NZ 1-3 IPC
EGYPT 2 IPC

Total  15 IPCs

This would put their production to 40 IPC at which point they would be ready to link up with a German advance on russia

What do you think?

« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 04:39:34 pm by thespaceman » Logged
Bashir
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2006, 06:06:58 pm »
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I think there have been enough discussions about a round 1 IC for the Japs. The conclusion was always the same: A first round ��� IC is not optimal game play...

You didn't post your combat moves on round one, but being defensive on round 1 with ��� is suicide. You have to take out China and the Haw Sz! Those are mandatory attacks!
1) The attack on china, it can't be poorly defended, because USA didn't have time to move their pieces! If you don't take out China with sufficient forces or leave it all alone you might get stuck with an USA IC on Sinkang. It will get you nowhere near Moscow in the near future...
2) You can't leave Pearl alone! It will bite you in the atlantic or it will start annoy Japan in the pacific, either way you are in deep trouble.
3) A first round IC is weak, because it slows Japan enormously! Transporters are way better to funnel your infantry over to the mainland! Don't think about a mainland IC before round 3-4! The rounds before that you can just take lands with inf and airforce! After round 3-4 you can start pump tanks on mainland IC's. you have the income base for it and enough infantry as fodder for your precious tanks.

Those are reasons enough not to think about a first round ��� IC.

Furthermore I have some notes on the rest of your strat.
1) In your territory summary is no Russian territory at all! You want exactly those territories!!! Each IPC less for the Russian player is less infantry!
2) Don't waste your time island hopping! You want Russian Heartlands! Islands are worth less IPC's, so why bother about them! You can take them later if you have a solid troop supply comming in. Now you have nowhere near enough troops to go after islands which are worth nothing.

I hope you can use my comments a little bit. I wrote this in little time, so there is a lot more I could say about this, but this should already be enough to discourage you using this strat.
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thespaceman
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2006, 07:03:27 pm »
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Hi, Thanks for reply,



Quote
2) You can't leave Pearl alone! It will bite you in the atlantic or it will start annoy Japan in the pacific, either way you are in deep trouble.

Yes, agreed , Pearl Harbour attack is a no-brainer, I should have mentioned it earlier. I would send enough forces to ensure the survival of the BBs and CV, the sub and FTR are attrition losses.


Quote
1) The attack on china, it can't be poorly defended, because USA didn't have time to move their pieces! If you don't take out China with sufficient forces or leave it all alone you might get stuck with an USA IC on Sinkang. It will get you nowhere near Moscow in the near future...

What I meant was the possibility of the Brits attacking Burma (and losing) or sending their INF into Africa and India being weakly defended. If India is weak then an all out push could Knock UK and US out of Asis by JT1 or JT2 (depending on opening placement of bid items)
or if  USSR/UK sending reinforcements into INDIA China eg FTRs from russia or INF from africa. Then a more defensive stance is needed until ��� has sufficient INF reserves to take and hold any gains against counter attack.

Obviously If territories in SE Asia can be taken on J-T1 then the ��� player should be more aggressive and even go all out to gain as many territories as possible. But If the Allies have piled up reserves and are in a strong counter attack position then if the Japs are too aggressive they might not be able to hold any gains.


Quote
1) In your territory summary is no Russian territory at all! You want exactly those territories!!! Each IPC less for the Russian player is less infantry!

Obvioulsy There is potential Russian Territory that can be take but they can also shuttle enough troops acroos from Russia to stall a direct northern advance. This is why I am suggesting the Southern route. If It is possible both can be done thus attacking through Sov Far East and up through india and into Russia itself. The classic Pincer movement.

What I wanted to demonstrate is how a strong southern push could gain income parity without any large scale invasion of Russia. Let Russia build its INF and hold its central territories while Germany and Japan carve up the Brits strung out holdings.

Quote
2) Don't waste your time island hopping! You want Russian Heartlands! Islands are worth less IPC's, so why bother about them! You can take them later if you have a solid troop supply comming in. Now you have nowhere near enough troops to go after islands which are worth nothing
.

I do agree that Islands are a waste of time 90% of the time but If they can be gained quickly and easily against minimal opposition then the IPC reversal will add up over time. Even the threat of having a TRN within range of Africa could cause allies to redeploy troops away from Germany.

Quote
3) A first round IC is weak, because it slows Japan enormously! Transporters are way better to funnel your infantry over to the mainland! Don't think about a mainland IC before round 3-4! The rounds before that you can just take lands with inf and airforce! After round 3-4 you can start pump tanks on mainland IC's. you have the income base for it and enough infantry as fodder for your precious tanks.

The difference is that the items built on the mainland are in theatre straight away. It also expands the threat radius that newly constructed troops can reach in one turn.

Also the difference between 4 TRN and and IC + 2 TRN is slight

4 TRN
8 INF = 24 IPC

2 TRN + IC
6 INF + ARM = 23 IPC

The 4 TRN is probably more efficient but the ARM in burma has more potential to blitz through undefended regions like syria once the Brits in India are gone.

Assuming by turn 2-3 ��� had about 30-33 to spend then that allows total utilisation plus another TRN per turn to be built 

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DarthMaximus
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2006, 11:36:10 am »
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The problem with focusing on the British holdings is, they don't need much to run a successful campaign.  With 3 trns the UK only needs to earn 18 IPC to fill them, and 12 of those come from London and Canada.

I don't think, long term you will be able to continue the "Southern Push" without giving Russia too much space and I think that is bad for the Axis.

You may be able to gain income but you will be sacrificing position in the process.

I think a UK/US landing in Alg on rd 2, and then a follow-up in rd 3 should be enough to win back most if not all of Africa, and many times a second landing isn't even needed on rd 3.

For the question about IC's, I like to wait a rd or 2.  I like the 2 trn, 3 inf rd 1 buy, then 1 trn on rd 2 with inf, THEN in rd 3 I like to look at IC's and lately I've been leaning towards Yak or Sin, so new tanks are in immediate range of Moscow.

I don't like the IC on rd 1, b/c I usually poor everything I have on land into China and I don't really want to worry about defending FIC durning non-com.  I then unload new units to Man and land planes there.
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thespaceman
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2006, 02:52:54 pm »
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Hi again.

I played a few games to refine the strategy a bit and think that the following timeline is achievable.

T1 Japs take China and Sianking, reinforce Manch and Burma.

T2 Japs take India (possibly SFE)

T3 Japs take SFE, YAK, NOV,KAZ,PER,SYR, Probably all with 1-2 INF in each. Syria/Persia would need a TNK to blitz

Basically it requires an additional 2 INF placed in burma as a bid strategy. Also a heavy AIR commitment is needed to finish battles quickly.

Even though the T3 push is weak Russia woud need 12 INF min to retake these territories. This would weaken their Western front to the point that Germany could be able to push through Caucasus to link up in Syria.

Quote
I think a UK/US landing in Alg on rd 2, and then a follow-up in rd 3 should be enough to win back most if not all of Africa, and many times a second landing isn't even needed on rd 3.

This is the key to the games final outcome. If neither side commits a stupid error and looses a capital it becomes a game of economic and attrition. It's very difficult for Germany to sustain an African Campaign or any other offensive quest for extra IPCs. That's why a Quick move by ��� to target undefended zones between T3 and T5 can swing the balance in the axis favour. Japan could even develop it's own Shuck Shuck from India to Italian East Africa.
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ncscswitch
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2006, 03:09:28 pm »
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For thsoe who say that a J1 IC is sub optimal, I disagree.  It may be sub-optimal in terms of J2 moves, But a J1 IC is superior on J3, and all moves forward.  It is also well supported by Axis wins where it is executed. 

As for defense by Japan on J1... BAD idea.  Japan needs to gain income FAST, or Russia can hold them at bay AND still pound Germany

Also, Japan can NOT limit itself to attack on a single prong of attack.

The northern prong is too easy, and also is a direct assault on Russian Income (helping both Germany AND Japan) to ignore it.

A southern prong push also is easilly sustained, especiall yif the J1 IC is in FIC, and the J2 or J3 IC is in India.  Russia can NOT divert enough forces South to completely stall that attack, not if Germany is also pushign on Caucuses from the West.

There ARE ways to counter, but they are more difficult to execute by the Allies.
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thespaceman
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2006, 05:17:46 pm »
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Quote
The northern prong is too easy, and also is a direct assault on Russian Income (helping both Germany AND Japan) to ignore it.

How would you respond to R-T1: Russia stacks 7 INF + ARM in YAK. (if Russia Restricted is in play)?

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MADDOGG
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2006, 05:43:25 pm »
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I would respond by kicking your behind. Wanna play? evil
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thespaceman
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2006, 07:54:16 pm »
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Quote
I would respond by kicking your behind. Wanna play? 


Sure, do you mean face to face or online?



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DarthMaximus
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2006, 07:23:16 am »
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LOL @ Maddogg.

I suppose with 2 inf placed in Fic, you could hit Sin but you'll probably be going up against at least 4 Allied troops.
Also Man may be open for a strafe or take on R1 with no extra units.  Certainly in LL, I'd consider a strafe at the very least, going with 4 inf, 1 arm 1 ftr vs. 3 inf, 1 ftr, and take a shot at clrearing out the 3 inf before retreating back to yak.  And with a UK retreat to Sin that leaves only 6 inf to take out Chi and Sin.  Meaning, you are only going to take each with minimal force.

I perfer the placement in Man and the take heavy of China.  I'm generally not concerned with income for Japan early on, b/c the IPC's are going to come naturally if you make strong aggressive moves towards Novo.

IMO, with 2 extra inf, I think

Chi: 7 inf
Man 4 inf, ftrs
Fic, Kwa: mt

is much stronger than

Chi: 1-2 inf
Sin: 1-2 inf
Fic: 2 inf, ftrs, IC
Man: 1-2 inf

I've learnd a round 2 Russian purchase of 3 tanks can go a long way into later repelling weak moves by Japan early on, and I think this is where you may run into trouble if Japan isn't using sufficient force.  With the 7 inf already out East you don't really need to commit much else to that front until Japan can threaten Novo, even then if you have 7-9 tanks you may be able to deter the Japan move to Novo altogether for a couple of rds.
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Cmdr Jennifer
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2006, 09:34:42 am »
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Switch, bear in mind this is classic.  Odds are Germany's pretty bottled in E. Europe on the first 3 rounds at least.  So Russia +3 IPC for Ukraine pretty much every round.

However, yea.  Other then the 7 Infantry, 1 Armor in the East, you're pretty much limited on what you can do to Japan on the northern prong.  Not to mention, you can always violate Mongolia and bypass the Russian wall in the East forcing them to retreat to Novosibirsk or attack you, which is in Japan's interest.


I'd have to say, IC in FIC, IC in Manchuria would be your best bet.  India might be too tempting for the Allies to go for.  Depends on the layout.

Anyway, with Mainland ICs you don't need too many transports.  And those you have can go around cleaning up islands or redeploying forces to the front faster.
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ncscswitch
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2006, 03:15:20 pm »
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OK, my apologies... I keep accessing this from the "unread topics" areas instead of from the main directory...

Scratch what I said above.

In Classic there are no build limits, so you do everythign Direct from Japan.

If Russia has stacked, you TRN in to Manch and reinforce there, THEN move out to Asia. 

Builds are the key with Japan.  Immediately get to 4 TRN in the water to land 8 INF to Asia.  Initially, you support their attacks with air power.
Then start adding 1 TRN per round, always keeping EVERY TRN FULL every round (cannibalize the islands for extra forces), saving extra IPC as needed to keep increasing hte TRN fleet.

Build, bridge.  Build, bridge.

Preserve your air.  Land lots of units. And just mvoe forward in a steady wall, with continous progress through Siberia to reduce Russian income as fast as possible.  With luck, you might even get to Moscow in force before Germany falls...

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Bashir
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2006, 05:12:33 pm »
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lol switch... I was indeed wondering about "For thsoe who say that a J1 IC is sub optimal, I disagree.  It may be sub-optimal in terms of J2 moves, But a J1 IC is superior on J3, and all moves forward.  It is also well supported by Axis wins where it is executed."
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ncscswitch
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2006, 05:26:02 pm »
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Forgive me.  My Classic Board is thick with dust, and getting thicker.

But core concepts, such as Japan TRN heavy and sending as many troops as they can buy per round into Asia has not changed smiley
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2006, 05:53:13 pm »
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I do the same thing, Switch. Smiley  It's a pain that we even deign to allow such trivial nonsensibilities and backward thinkers like classic players even talk on our boards. Smiley  (that was a joke, btw.  You should SEE how rusty my classic game play has gotten!  Try winning a 6 IPC bid in Classic (where the bid is in Africa))
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