• Had Army Group South captured Stalingrad and the Caucasus oil fields what impact would this have had on the war in 1942?

    Had the Germans been able to make use of that oil how would the war changed?


  • Interesting question.  The German planners split their forces into three groups, towards Moscow, Leningrad (because of the Russian industry there), and Stalingrad (because of the rich resources of the Caucases). By splitting their forces, they were unable to acheive any of these.  A more realistic plan would have been to concentrate their forces on one objective (IMO Moscow first), but these three were too rich to not attempt in Barbarossa.

    I think that this would have “won” the war with the Soviets in the sense that Stalin would have had insufficient resources to effectively fight, but the Germans would have been unable to deliver a true victory.  The allies would have been unable at that time to make up for this loss by shipping more resources to Russia, so the Germans would have then been able to take Moscow and Leningrad.  Stalin would eventually be fighting from the Urals and in guerrilla warfare in much the same manner as Chang Kai-Shek was fighting the Japanese from Chongqing.


  • How would the lack of Caucasus oil hurt the Red Army in 1942?


  • It would have denied this oil to the Soviets.  While much of the Russian forces (i.e. the vast number of infantry) would have been able to manage without, no doubt it would have reduced both their armoured divisions and airforce.  This would have helped the Germans maintain both aerial and armoured superiority.

    Additionally, the Russians needed the food grown in this region as the Germans already held the Ukraine, the breadbasket of Russia.

    Most importantly, the Germans were desperate for oil.  Had they had the oil from the Caucasus, they would have been able to fight more effectively.


  • Had the German command decided after the Battle of Kiev that Mocsow was out of the question in 1941 and the focus of the front had been Army Group South, Stalingrad and the Caucasus would have fallen. This could have allowed the Germany Army a massive southern flank for an attack on Moscow in 1942 and allow space for movement to surrond and destroy russian units, instead of an direct attack on Moscow from the West.

    How long would it take before Russian oil reached Germany for production? And how would Germany get this oil? Oil tankers from the Black Sea, by rail tankers or by a massive pipeline?

  • '10

    @ABWorsham:

    Had the German command decided after the Battle of Kiev that Mocsow was out of the question in 1941 and the focus of the front had been Army Group South, Stalingrad and the Caucasus would have fallen. This could have allowed the Germany Army a massive southern flank for an attack on Moscow in 1942 and allow space for movement to surrond and destroy russian units, instead of an direct attack on Moscow from the West.

    How long would it take before Russian oil reached Germany for production? And how would Germany get this oil? Oil tankers from the Black Sea, by rail tankers or by a massive pipeline?

    It would have taken a year or more for the Germs to repair the oil fields. The Ruskies would never have left any of those facilities in usable condition for the Germs. Probably a year and a half to get any oil back to Germany. A whole Germ army group might half been cut off and destroyed depending on Ruskie oil reserves and shipments from the U.S. The war might have ended sooner. I voted for the last one.


  • @Fishmoto37:

    @ABWorsham:

    Had the German command decided after the Battle of Kiev that Mocsow was out of the question in 1941 and the focus of the front had been Army Group South, Stalingrad and the Caucasus would have fallen. This could have allowed the Germany Army a massive southern flank for an attack on Moscow in 1942 and allow space for movement to surrond and destroy russian units, instead of an direct attack on Moscow from the West.

    How long would it take before Russian oil reached Germany for production? And how would Germany get this oil? Oil tankers from the Black Sea, by rail tankers or by a massive pipeline?

    It would have taken a year or more for the Germs to repair the oil fields. The Ruskies would never have left any of those facilities in usable condition for the Germs. Probably a year and a half to get any oil back to Germany. A whole Germ army group might half been cut off and destroyed depending on Ruskie oil reserves and shipments from the U.S. The war might have ended sooner. I voted for the last one.

    Even had the scorched earth policy destroyed the oil wells and facilities, denying them to the Germans for a year or more; I think the loss of the resources (especially oil and food but also manpower for infantry and a small trickle of Allied supplies through Iran) to the Soviets would have enabled a German “victory.”  That is, the Germans would push the remnants past the Urals.  Do you think the allies could have supplied sufficient replacements of any of these resources or otherwise countered this “victory”?

    However, I do not think true victory for the Germans would have been achieved even had Barbarossa succeeded in all three fronts, but certainly this would have placed them in a better position.  Stalin would continue fighting via guerrilla warfare and from Siberia.  The UK would still maintain control of the seas.  The USA would still vastly outproduce the Axis in quantity, and eventually in quality also, of armaments.  Probably still a losing position for the Nazis, but much better than the long retreat to Berlin that actually happened.

  • '10

    @221B:

    @Fishmoto37:

    @ABWorsham:

    Had the German command decided after the Battle of Kiev that Mocsow was out of the question in 1941 and the focus of the front had been Army Group South, Stalingrad and the Caucasus would have fallen. This could have allowed the Germany Army a massive southern flank for an attack on Moscow in 1942 and allow space for movement to surrond and destroy russian units, instead of an direct attack on Moscow from the West.

    How long would it take before Russian oil reached Germany for production? And how would Germany get this oil? Oil tankers from the Black Sea, by rail tankers or by a massive pipeline?

    It would have taken a year or more for the Germs to repair the oil fields. The Ruskies would never have left any of those facilities in usable condition for the Germs. Probably a year and a half to get any oil back to Germany. A whole Germ army group might half been cut off and destroyed depending on Ruskie oil reserves and shipments from the U.S. The war might have ended sooner. I voted for the last one.

    Even had the scorched earth policy destroyed the oil wells and facilities, denying them to the Germans for a year or more; I think the loss of the resources (especially oil and food but also manpower for infantry and a small trickle of Allied supplies through Iran) to the Soviets would have enabled a German “victory.”  That is, the Germans would push the remnants past the Urals.  Do you think the allies could have supplied sufficient replacements of any of these resources or otherwise countered this “victory”?

    However, I do not think true victory for the Germans would have been achieved even had Barbarossa succeeded in all three fronts, but certainly this would have placed them in a better position.  Stalin would continue fighting via guerrilla warfare and from Siberia.  The UK would still maintain control of the seas.  The USA would still vastly outproduce the Axis in quantity, and eventually in quality also, of armaments.  Probably still a losing position for the Nazis, but much better than the long retreat to Berlin that actually happened.

    It all depends on how much reserve of oil and other resources the Soviets would have accumilated at the time. Plus what the allies could have provided. With full control of the sea by the allies the Germans could not have not stopped the supplies from arriving in the Soviet Union. If this would have been enough we do not know. But I agree that the Germans would never win in the long run.


  • the red army would fight w/ stick and stones if they had to


  • @cminke:

    the red army would fight w/ stick and stones if they had to

    Yes indeed.  An example of this victory-at-all-costs attitude can be found in a book by General (later Marshal) Chuikov in which he describes an incident that occured during the Red Army’s assault on Berlin.  A Soviet tank somehow got isolated during the street fighting for the city and was damaged by a German anti-tank round.  All but one of its crew were killed.  The surviving (though wounded) crewman kept working the main gun, loading and aiming and firing it by himself.  When the main gun ran out of ammunition, or was wrecked by another enemy hit (I can’t remember which; I read the book a long time ago), the Russian proceeded to fire the tank’s machine gun at the nearby Germans.  When that ran out of ammunition, he started lobbing grenades out of the tank to drive off the Germans who were pounding on the hull and demanding that he surrender.  A fresh Soviet unit finally arrived and forced the Germans to retreat.  The Russian soldiers got into the wrecked tank and found the last crewman inside.  He was dying of his wounds, but he was holding a knife in his hand, ready to use it to make a final stand against any German soldier who had tried to enter the tank.  After telling the other soldiers what had happened, his final words were, “Thank you, comrades, for not leaving my body in the hands of the Fascists.”


  • For the Germans to be assured of victory for the whole WW2 (for the Germans part), (Japan was totally doomed after Pearl Harbor), the Germans needed to capture both UK and Moscow, and the rest of Russia up to the Ural mountains. Then the US could not win a conventional war against Germany. The only hope for the US if Germany captured both UK and Russia was the A-bomb.
    But it would not be enough for Germany to take all of Russia if UK still was free, and US+UK would bring down Germany unless Germany invented the A-bomb very very soon.
    Now if Germany and Russia were buddies like US and UK, then there would be no war, except for Germany pwning UK easily.


  • It didn’t matter.  The war in the Eastern front was all but over for Germany after the winter of 41’.  Very few winter uniforms were issued to German soldiers because the High Command believed they would be drinking vodka in the Kremlin by the end of the year.  One story recalls West of Moscow in mid-December that the frozen legs of 73 dead Russian soldiers were sawed off below the knee and put in ovens, to warm the boot off the foot so they could be taken off and given to 73 German soldiers.  The German men and equipment were not ready for the shock of the winter.

    You have to remember that this was an all or nothing more for Hitler, (Directive no. 21) and If he could not capture Moscow and only Moscow before 42’ the war was over.  Subsequently, Hitler ended up being his own demise after continuing to contradict himself over his goals (Should I stay and siege Leningrad, should I capture Kiev, a should I move the South army north and pincer Moscow?) Now I understand the idea of capturing the oil fields in the Caucasus, but the heart, communications, and command of Russia ran from Moscow.  Why cut off a hand, when you can cut off the head?  Basically if you capture Moscow you could walk down to the oil fields with little resistance.  Also, by the end of 41’ the Allies had fully committed themselves to helping Russia.  America and the UK thought Russia was doomed, but after seeing the resistance the Russians put up, it would soon be a 3 v 1 battle.

    I suppose if this Campaign has taken place in Midwest America, where there was little chance of a Russian winter then I have no doubt believing that Germany would have had time to capture Moscow.

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